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RE: "Mass Murder on an Un-Imaginable Scale!" - 8/13/2006 9:12:36 AM   
CrappyDom


Posts: 1883
Joined: 4/11/2006
From: Sacramento
Status: offline 		Level,

Let me ask you a very simple question.  If the only way you could win your freedom was to use terrorism, would you choose slavery or freedom?

(in reply to philosophy)
Profile   Post #: 101
RE: "Mass Murder on an Un-Imaginable Scale!" - 8/13/2006 9:14:54 AM   
CrappyDom


Posts: 1883
Joined: 4/11/2006
From: Sacramento
Status: offline 		Philo,

Those two posts were an attempt to break through the "kill them all and send them to god and its okay because we are inherently good" crowds mental blocks by taking their argument to the extreme. 

Clearly it failed.

(in reply to philosophy)
Profile   Post #: 102
RE: "Mass Murder on an Un-Imaginable Scale!" - 8/13/2006 10:16:27 AM   
Level


Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CrappyDom

Level,

Let me ask you a very simple question.  If the only way you could win your freedom was to use terrorism, would you choose slavery or freedom?


Good morning, Crappy. Let's see... if you mean terrorism as killing women and children, the answer, I believe, would be no. And I would ask "freedom" from what?

Edited to add: sometimes innocents die in battle. Intent matters.
 
Example: a suicide bomber goes into a crowd at a market, or a wedding, and sets off their explosives. Innocents die.
 
Example: Israel drops leaflets in a town telling people to get out. After a period of time, they fire shells there. Innocents that did not leave die.
 
Both examples are horrible, and if the human race did not have its head up its ass, none of these things would happen. But, as I said, intent matters, at least to me.
 
A bit off topic as to what you asked, but sometimes I ramble


< Message edited by Level -- 8/13/2006 10:38:40 AM >

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to CrappyDom)
Profile   Post #: 103
RE: "Mass Murder on an Un-Imaginable Scale!" - 8/13/2006 10:41:22 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		The choice of the Palestinians is to fight for their stolen land or live in refugee camps which are glorified prison camps guarded by the people who stole their land and are still stealing it with the constant encroachment of settlements, the redirecting of their water supplies and having their olive groves dug up and houses destroyed as a collective punishment. Yes, they can live in peace if they want to be landless and live in poverty.

But let's look at who is killing women and children. Over four times as many Palestinians are killed than Israelis and a higher % of those Palestinians that are killed are women and children than the Israeli dead. You just have to google, the stats are there on many sites of many different humanitarian organisations and they all tell the same story and all the stats are comparable.

The west keeps talking about the need for peace but the west doesn't offer anything, it doesn't even insist that international law should be enforced, law that it set up to stop such tregedies happening again. If the Palestinians can't rely on international law to look after their interests, what is left but to fight?

(in reply to Level)
Profile   Post #: 104
RE: "Mass Murder on an Un-Imaginable Scale!" - 8/13/2006 10:47:42 AM   
Level


Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

The choice of the Palestinians is to fight for their stolen land or live in refugee camps which are glorified prison camps guarded by the people who stole their land and are still stealing it with the constant encroachment of settlements, the redirecting of their water supplies and having their olive groves dug up and houses destroyed as a collective punishment. Yes, they can live in peace if they want to be landless and live in poverty.

In order for there to be peace, Israel and the West would need to help the Palestinians build their infrastructure and economy, as I said. I believe this would happen, if the Hamas-types would choose peace. The camps would disappear. The settlements, which Israel removed in Gaza and want to remove over 90% of in the West Bank, would need to go/stay gone. If the hamasites were gone, there would be no bulldozing or digging up of olive groves!

But let's look at who is killing women and children. Over four times as many Palestinians are killed than Israelis and a higher % of those Palestinians that are killed are women and children than the Israeli dead. You just have to google, the stats are there on many sites of many different humanitarian organisations and they all tell the same story and all the stats are comparable.

The west keeps talking about the need for peace but the west doesn't offer anything, it doesn't even insist that international law should be enforced, law that it set up to stop such tregedies happening again. If the Palestinians can't rely on international law to look after their interests, what is left but to fight?


_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 105
RE: "Mass Murder on an Un-Imaginable Scale!" - 8/13/2006 10:51:51 AM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline 		There is a point of view being expressed here, that these terrorists are doing what they are doing, because of actions taken by western governments, namely the United Kingdom and the United States. At it's core, this point of view projects fairness ... as if being treated unfairly is an excuse to blow up airliners, etc ...
 
Lets get past the points of view, as those will probably never change. The issue then becomes, do we want to send a message as a superpower, that if you don't like the things we are doing, and are not getting what you want from us, the path to amelioration is hyper-destruction of civilians?
 
Because ... that is exactly what you are saying here ... the the west should back off, to get these terrorists to back off. What about every other country on Earth that isn't gettiing what they want out of the west? Are we going to send that clear a message to them ... crash into our building, and we will see things your way?
 
The when, how and why of this situation is past the time where anything can be done about it. What happened in 1953, happened in 1953. There is nothing we can do about that now. Even the war with Iraq ... it is done, and we are there. We aren't going to be able to "pretend" that we don't have a stake in what happens there.
 
The only path left to us now, is to win. To push forward, not back down, and win.

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 106
RE: "Mass Murder on an Un-Imaginable Scale!" - 8/13/2006 10:53:15 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		Collective punishment is against international law and a war crime. The people who are telling the Palestinians to choose peace are the people who are happy to see international law flouted and who turn a blind eye to war crimes. ie. The west (in almost its entirity). Would you trust people who are happy to back a country that commits war crimes?

Just look at the situation through the objective eyes of international law.

(in reply to Level)
Profile   Post #: 107
RE: "Mass Murder on an Un-Imaginable Scale!" - 8/13/2006 10:57:14 AM   
Level


Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Collective punishment is against international law and a war crime. The people who are telling the Palestinians to choose peace are the people who are happy to see international law flouted and who turn a blind eye to war crimes. ie. The west (in almost its entirity). Would you trust people who are happy to back a country that commits war crimes?

Just look at the situation through the objective eyes of international law.


So what should happen?

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 108
RE: "Mass Murder on an Un-Imaginable Scale!" - 8/13/2006 11:00:42 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

There is a point of view being expressed here, that these terrorists are doing what they are doing, because of actions taken by western governments, namely the United Kingdom and the United States. At it's core, this point of view projects fairness ... as if being treated unfairly is an excuse to blow up airliners, etc ...
 
Lets get past the points of view, as those will probably never change. The issue then becomes, do we want to send a message as a superpower, that if you don't like the things we are doing, and are not getting what you want from us, the path to amelioration is hyper-destruction of civilians?
 
Because ... that is exactly what you are saying here ... the the west should back off, to get these terrorists to back off. What about every other country on Earth that isn't gettiing what they want out of the west? Are we going to send that clear a message to them ... crash into our building, and we will see things your way?
 
The when, how and why of this situation is past the time where anything can be done about it. What happened in 1953, happened in 1953. There is nothing we can do about that now. Even the war with Iraq ... it is done, and we are there. We aren't going to be able to "pretend" that we don't have a stake in what happens there.
 
The only path left to us now, is to win. To push forward, not back down, and win.


The west keeps talking as if it is an innocent party in all this. The west isn't, though for its own purposes it likes to see itself as innocent. The west set up the new world order after WWII. Through the prism that prism, the west is guilty of hypocrisy at the very least and war crimes at the worst. To then turn round and complain that people are attacking it when the west has done nothing but attack and exploit the people it accuses of terrorism is laughable.

The west should stop preaching about freedom and civilisation and start implimenting freedom and civilisation first, starting with ourselves.

(in reply to caitlyn)
Profile   Post #: 109
RE: "Mass Murder on an Un-Imaginable Scale!" - 8/13/2006 11:01:01 AM   
Level


Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

There is a point of view being expressed here, that these terrorists are doing what they are doing, because of actions taken by western governments, namely the United Kingdom and the United States. At it's core, this point of view projects fairness ... as if being treated unfairly is an excuse to blow up airliners, etc ...
 
Lets get past the points of view, as those will probably never change. The issue then becomes, do we want to send a message as a superpower, that if you don't like the things we are doing, and are not getting what you want from us, the path to amelioration is hyper-destruction of civilians?
 
Because ... that is exactly what you are saying here ... the the west should back off, to get these terrorists to back off. What about every other country on Earth that isn't gettiing what they want out of the west? Are we going to send that clear a message to them ... crash into our building, and we will see things your way?
 
The when, how and why of this situation is past the time where anything can be done about it. What happened in 1953, happened in 1953. There is nothing we can do about that now. Even the war with Iraq ... it is done, and we are there. We aren't going to be able to "pretend" that we don't have a stake in what happens there.
 
The only path left to us now, is to win. To push forward, not back down, and win.


I strongly agree with your "we aren't going to be able to 'pretend' that we don't have a stake in what happens there", caitlyn. And I don't think we need to set a date as to when we'll leave, as some are calling for.
 
I will disagree with there isn't anything we can do about such things as 1953; we can learn from them, hopefully.

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to caitlyn)
Profile   Post #: 110
RE: "Mass Murder on an Un-Imaginable Scale!" - 8/13/2006 11:05:25 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Collective punishment is against international law and a war crime. The people who are telling the Palestinians to choose peace are the people who are happy to see international law flouted and who turn a blind eye to war crimes. ie. The west (in almost its entirity). Would you trust people who are happy to back a country that commits war crimes?

Just look at the situation through the objective eyes of international law.


So what should happen?


The west should stop supporting one side and try to get some credibility back and return as honest brokers that both sides can trust.

I doubt any thinking person on the Palestinian side believes that the situation can be returned to pre-Israeli 1948, the process has to start from now but a just settlement is possible, it has to be.

(in reply to Level)
Profile   Post #: 111
RE: "Mass Murder on an Un-Imaginable Scale!" - 8/13/2006 11:10:02 AM   
Level


Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline 		For this to happen, both sides have to stop the violence. I guess where we differ is that I believe Israel has tried that before, only to be met with more violence. This puts the onus on the Palestinian side. They don't want that, though, they want Israel dead and gone. So?

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 112
RE: "Mass Murder on an Un-Imaginable Scale!" - 8/13/2006 11:20:28 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		I would say the Israelis have never seriously wanted peace. It negotiated peace with Egypt for strategic reasons and Jordan declared a de facto peace. However, you just have to listen to Israeli leaders who regularly spout zionist ideology about a greater Israel. They speak with the same forked tongue as Arafat was accused of.

Israeli withdrawal from Lebanon was not for peace, it retreated because occupation was proving to be too high a price. It was both costly economically and the freedom fighters which we now know as Hezzbollah were inflicting casualties on them in numbers the Israeli politicians couldn't justify to their citizens. It's withdrawal from Gaza was not a peaceful withdrawal but in effect it left a prison camp with no economic control of its future. Israel has never seriously considered withdrawing from the west bank because this would mean the end of its zionist dream of a greater Israel. The truth is, it can act like this is because of its American insurance policy.

(in reply to Level)
Profile   Post #: 113
RE: "Mass Murder on an Un-Imaginable Scale!" - 8/13/2006 11:29:13 AM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
The west keeps talking as if it is an innocent party in all this. The west isn't, though for its own purposes it likes to see itself as innocent. The west set up the new world order after WWII. Through the prism that prism, the west is guilty of hypocrisy at the very least and war crimes at the worst. To then turn round and complain that people are attacking it when the west has done nothing but attack and exploit the people it accuses of terrorism is laughable.

The west should stop preaching about freedom and civilisation and start implimenting freedom and civilisation first, starting with ourselves.


Most people in the know, understand that we are not innocent in all this. You are using a generalization to support your position. Most people understand that there are issues on which we do not agree ... Israel being one. Support for our side of an issue, is just that meat ... support for our side of the issue.
 
No offense, but you seem to be dreaming of a utopia that has never existed, and will never exist ... international law ... people doing right, instead or projecting might ... people not using words to promote an agenda. The only world that exists, is the one where the strong dictate to the weak.

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 114
RE: "Mass Murder on an Un-Imaginable Scale!" - 8/13/2006 11:36:38 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		Thanks for clarifying the US's position caitlyn but then most of the world has understood what Bush is about for a long time and most understand when he talks about civilisation, he isn't talking about justice through law and abitration but law through the barrel of a gun. That puts the terrorists in a very moral position and its rather hypocritical for Bush to condemn terrorists when he is happy to be one himself.

(in reply to caitlyn)
Profile   Post #: 115
RE: "Mass Murder on an Un-Imaginable Scale!" - 8/13/2006 11:38:31 AM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		Just ANOTHER reason why I don't want my government involved in *any type* of "foreign aid."

(in reply to caitlyn)
Profile   Post #: 116
RE: "Mass Murder on an Un-Imaginable Scale!" - 8/13/2006 11:47:28 AM   
Daddy4UdderSlut


Posts: 240
Joined: 4/2/2005
Status: offline 		I don't think the US has ever had a wiser, fairer, or better man at the helm than Abraham Lincoln.  One of his often quoted remarks that would have bearing on the invasion of Iraq is:
"Allow the president to invade a neighboring nation, whenever he shall deem it necessary to repel an invasion, and you allow him to do so whenever he may choose to say he deems it necessary for such a purpose - and you allow him to make war at pleasure."
How are we doing, Mr. Lincoln?

(in reply to CrappyDom)
Profile   Post #: 117
RE: "Mass Murder on an Un-Imaginable Scale!" - 8/13/2006 11:48:43 AM   
CrappyDom


Posts: 1883
Joined: 4/11/2006
From: Sacramento
Status: offline 		Level,

Shit happens in war, I agree.  Funny thing is, we only want to call it "war" when it suits us.  We firebomb cities and kill millions, we killed millions in Vietnam and Laos, we have done a lot killing in Iraq.  That's okay though, it was "war".

We talk about terrorists declaring "war" on us, but it is only "war" when we drop the bombs from airplanes, it isn't "war" when they drop whole airplanes.

We are really really lucky that they can't fight us on equal terms because we have flattened entire cities, we have made a third world shithole an even more fucked up place to live.  We have killed 10s if not 100s of thousands of people in a place that has a population less than that of California.

You want to "win" this by killing them all off.  I would rather "win" by finding common ground, stop supporting brutal dictators, and allow them to have a little peace and prosperity.  Clearly we see this all a bit differently.

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 118
RE: "Mass Murder on an Un-Imaginable Scale!" - 8/13/2006 11:51:11 AM   
CrappyDom


Posts: 1883
Joined: 4/11/2006
From: Sacramento
Status: offline 		Caitlyn,

What happened on 9/11 happened on 9/11, get over it, it is in the past.  We should forget about it and move on.

(in reply to caitlyn)
Profile   Post #: 119
RE: "Mass Murder on an Un-Imaginable Scale!" - 8/13/2006 11:54:42 AM   
CrappyDom


Posts: 1883
Joined: 4/11/2006
From: Sacramento
Status: offline
quote:

the path to amelioration is hyper-destruction of civilians


Uh, I hate to break it to you but if you piled all the skulls of all the victims of terrorists over the last 50 years, you wouldn't get a pile as big as the one we left in Vietnam and arguably smaller than the pile of dead we have created in Iraq.

Again, I have the same question for you that level skated around. 

If the choice facing you was permanent servitude/slavery or using terrorism to win your freedom, which would you choose? 

(in reply to caitlyn)
Profile   Post #: 120
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