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Jesus? - 12/23/2004 7:15:24 AM

sub4hire

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With the Christmas holiday just days away. Doug and I have been chatting about the birth of Jesus for a couple of month's. We have two actual ministers in the family. Believe it or not we asked them..and they didn't feel right about talking religion with us. Bizarre.

Anyway, our conversation started a couple of month's ago. When I said something about....well you know Christmas is not Jesus's birth date right?

I distinctly remember or maybe not so distinctly years ago doing extra credit for biology in high school over the holiday. Reading the entire King James version of the bible. Having many almost impossible extra credit questions to answer. Anyway, I recall the reason we celebrate the birth of christ in December is because the winter is cold and dreary. So we chose to celebrate his birthday to bring some light and festivity into an otherwise dreary time of year.
Perhaps that is why I'm thinking June for his actual birthdate. Anyway, Doug was reading up...he seems to think it is in April or March. Although I don't think there is much debate over Easter or Passover. I asked his Uncle who is also a minister. He gave me the date of Jan 6-10th and also added it depends on what the orthodox interpetation is.
Which has me totally lost now.
I don't consider myself a religious person. Yet, just curious as to when the general consentious is. When was Christ born?

Anyone?

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RE: Jesus? - 12/23/2004 11:44:51 AM

knees2you

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Gloria,

My Roomate being Christian and all Believes He was Born Dec. 25th. I have always said that Jesus is the Son of God.
Nobody really knows Where God came from, but yet
He is the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End.
I think that if The Bible was wrong in anyway shape or form, God would have sent a Messenger.

Alot of people don't Believe in giving 10 percent to the Church,
but that is also in the Bible~

Gloria, people think that because Man wrote the Bible that it must be wrong considering all the Mistakes Man makes.

People have been trying to perdict when Jesus will come again!
They believe that they have it figured out, day time year.
But that is only thru hidden Scriptures.

I know alot of people really don't care, but I know he died for us.
He Rose again on Easter. Can't figure out Where
the bunnies come in though~

Sincerely, Anthony

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RE: Jesus? - 12/23/2004 12:15:32 PM

Mercnbeth

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dearest Gloria,
this is the reader's digest condensed version of information found in "The Book Of Hiram: Freemasonry, Venus and the Secret Key to the Life of Jesus", written by Christopher Knight and Robert Lomas

the Star Prophecy recorded in Numbers 24:17 claims that a kingly messiah would arise whose birth would be marked by a star......Matthew's Gospel has the magi saying "we have seen his star in the east".
there is an ancient Jewish belief that major astral events happen within a pattern linked not only to Venus, but to that planet's more random conjunctions with Mercury. These extremely bright but irregular astral events were called Shekinah and were taken as a sign of God's favor.
astrological calculations find that this phenomenon took place 22 minutes before the sun rose in Jerusalem, December 25, 7 BC in the east-southeast direction.
warmly,
beth

< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 12/23/2004 12:25:39 PM >

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RE: Jesus? - 12/23/2004 2:11:28 PM

smile2cu

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The biblical description of shepards abiding by their flocks, would correspond to lambing time, which would be spring, probably April.

I would assume the December date was an attempt to take over the pagan festival corresponding to the winter solstice. This was not unusual, as most religions built on those that came before.
Many of the "Christmas" symbols, such as Yule log, Christmas tree, misletoe, and holly wreath come from that tradition rather than from Christian tradition.

In any case, have a happy holiday everyone!

_____________________________

Friendly, kind, cheerful, and oral.

~smile~

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RE: Jesus? - 12/23/2004 2:59:54 PM

Mercnbeth

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quote:

I would assume the December date was an attempt to take over the pagan festival corresponding to the winter solstice. This was not unusual, as most religions built on those that came before.

~smile~
I (Merc) lean more to your position. beth posted the previous response from us. It came from one of our reference books on the subject. I think the case for a December birth of the man know as Jesus Christ is a case of trying to make the facts fit the desired objective.

Once, a long long time ago as part of a philosophy course I did a paper that traced the history of EVERY Christian holiday back to it's "pagan" roots. Without exception, every major and most of the minor Christian holidays have older religion precedents, many storming from the Druids.

Happy Winter Solstice to ALL.....
.......And to all a Good night!

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RE: Jesus? - 12/23/2004 3:04:12 PM

sub4hire

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smile,
I have to agree with you. I was actually surprised two people responded saying the birth was actually December 25th. No where ever have I ever actually heard of that. Believe me I've asked plenty within different religious sects.
We were just trying to narrow it down to a month, date of course would be nice. I just don't see that happening.

I guess I can say...I've asked a Priest, Minister, Pastor, and Rabbi...and yet to get the date of Dec 25th.

General consentious overall so far is April.

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Post #: 6

RE: Jesus? - 12/23/2004 4:14:27 PM

afmvdp

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Well I could go on a long rant about this topic but I just don't have the time, I'm certain Suleiman will end up on this thread and give you the history though sooner or later.

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Post #: 7

RE: Jesus? - 12/24/2004 11:44:06 PM

MistressDREAD

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quote:

and they didn't feel right about talking religion with us. Bizarre.

Hows it feel to be * outted *
LOL like lifestylers cannot
be religious. Funny how so
many judge that which they
know not.

Go further back sub4hire then
the king james version of the
bible and you could find your
answer there. King James cronnies
choose to take out a whole lot
of content when publishing THEIR
book and probabaly took out the
time and date from the book as well.JMO

(in reply to afmvdp)

Post #: 8

RE: Jesus? - 12/25/2004 6:24:46 AM

MistressKyley

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I am with you...Does it really matter what day? I think it is just a month and time that was chosen by whomever/whenever to serve as the time we
(Christians ) recognize that Jesus was born to die on the cross so that we may live in heaven with Him someday. I think people get away from that and focus on all of the "political/commercial"Santa Claus and all that type c*@p that surrounds this holiday, but to each his own, I am not a preacher.
Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays

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RE: Jesus? - 12/25/2004 6:37:38 AM

MizSuz

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Gloria:

Happy Holidays to you and yours!

I was watching a show on the history channel the other night and they also put forth what has been said here: That the book of Matthew (I can't find my bible to check the passage - sorry) states that the birth occurred when the shepards were tending their flocks at night. It's historically understood that the only time the shepards watched their flocks at night was during lambing season, which would make it the spring. Sorry I have no closer time for you, but I thought this made a lot of sense.

As for some of our "Christmas traditions" (and as has also been said here) a lot of the traditions that we currently use can be traced back to pagans. An example would be the christmas tree and the yule log. Yule was celebrated by the Odinists. It was common for the Christian church to incorporate pagan trappings while they were expanding. It was a way to appease the people they were trying to convert.

I wish I could find my Bible. I'm sure it's in a box somewhere with my copy of the Koran.

_____________________________

“The more you love, the more you can love—and the more intensely you love. Nor is there any limit on how many you can love. If a person had time enough, he could love all of that majority who are decent and just.”
- Robert Heinlein

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RE: Jesus? - 12/25/2004 6:54:17 AM

MizSuz

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

the Star Prophecy recorded in Numbers 24:17 claims that a kingly messiah would arise whose birth would be marked by a star......Matthew's Gospel has the magi saying "we have seen his star in the east".
there is an ancient Jewish belief that major astral events happen within a pattern linked not only to Venus, but to that planet's more random conjunctions with Mercury. These extremely bright but irregular astral events were called Shekinah and were taken as a sign of God's favor.
astrological calculations find that this phenomenon took place 22 minutes before the sun rose in Jerusalem, December 25, 7 BC in the east-southeast direction.
warmly,
beth

Greetings beth,

The same show I was watching on the history channel echoed much of what you say here, although it did not agree that the event occurred on December 25, rather like the spring. It did say, however, that the astral event most likely was a planetary conjunction. It agreed that mercury was involved, as well as jupiter and that they were probably eclipsed by our moon during that event. It also suggested that of all the societies in that time the ONLY place in which they have found no evidence of the belief in astronomy as effecting humans was in Judea (did I name that right? - hmmm). Apparently all other societies, especially those in the 'east,' did adhere to such beliefs.

They also said that conjunctions were attributed to "kingly" events, usually things like births; whereas something like a comet would have more likely been attributed to a death or something negative and/ or horrible like a disaster.

Of course, that's the TV and I haven't done more reading or investigating of it.

_____________________________

“The more you love, the more you can love—and the more intensely you love. Nor is there any limit on how many you can love. If a person had time enough, he could love all of that majority who are decent and just.”
- Robert Heinlein

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RE: Jesus? - 12/25/2004 8:39:58 AM

sweetpleaser

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There is a book called "The History of Religion", I don't remember the author, that I had to read for a liberal arts class in college. It was very interesting and it traced most of our beliefs to pagan rituals and celebrations including Christmas. The celebration of the Sun God was during the week of December 25th. They danced around a lit tree. The Bible does not come out and say when the birth was.

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~ann~

It's not the men in my life that count, it's the life in my men.--Mae West

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Post #: 12

RE: Jesus? - 12/26/2004 8:18:28 AM

sub4hire

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Thanks everyone for your input. Doug's sister actually gave me a bible this christmas. No version I've ever had. They are the most un-religious, religious fanatics I've ever met. Hopefully that made sense.
I briefly looked through it....not a whole lot. As I've stated many times in the past I'm not deep into religion but I do like to be somewhat knowledeable.
Most of my life I've heard Jesus was born in a warm month. It now ranges from Jan to June.
We do celebrate his birth on christmas day. If you think about it, you don't hear anyone state he was born then. We just celebrate his birthday that day. It leaves a lot to think about if you're like me.
I can celebrate my birthday on New Years Eve it doesn't mean I was born on that day.
Anyway, in everything I do I love various peoples comments and points of view. It helps me to be a more rounded person that way.
Anyone want a brand new slightly open bible?

(in reply to MizSuz)

Post #: 13

RE: Jesus? - 12/26/2004 9:16:46 AM

Mercnbeth

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From Merc...
I want to interject an observation. I find it amazing that when it comes to challenging religion any theory contradicting religious beliefs is given instant credibility. For example, an astrologer creates a program to determine the exact position of stars and planets on a specific day 2000 years ago and oops the church is wrong and everybody jumps on the astrologers band wagon and April becomes the "real" birthday. Why this instant credibility and acceptance? Does that make sense?

The same show cited how shepherds never watch over sheep in December only April when the ewes gave birth. Maybe these particular shepherds had a deeper, meaningful relationship with their sheep? All scientific data comes with a margin of error. We are not even using the same calendar. Why 'believe' these scientists and not the bible? Because they are scientists? 'Scientists' as recently as 500 years ago would convince you that the world was flat.

Look I'm guilty of this. I BELIEVE that there is other intelligent life in the universe, but have real doubt about a divinity. Yet there is more evidence of a divinity then ET. As a 'recovering Catholic' (beth's label for me) my mind is prejudiced from all the hypocrisy and cash focus of that organization. So my search for knowledge focused on any contradictory 'facts'. But those facts are no more facts then biblical facts. Historically yes - there were preceding 'holidays' where the modern religions now celebrate, but so what.

And I read something interesting yesterday concerning the Catholic faith that may intrigue the polytheism groups. The Catholic 'Saints' have a direct correlation to the ancient practice of having a 'god' for every need. Worried about travel - St. Christopher will help you out. Have a lost cause - good old St. Jude is the one to call on. I remember in college (yes a Catholic college too) that this was rationalized by saying you were asking the saint to intercede in your behalf. Picture it...St. Jude sees God at a heavenly restaurant and says "Hey Merc prayed to me and asked me to ask you if you can help him find his lost car keys."

Anyway - happy to report no bolt of lightning hit me while typing this. HA! More proof that there is no God!

And now for something completely different....
...beth's opinion.....
faith is a belief in something that is not necessarily proveable. last time this slave checked her bible, there was no specific calender date given for Christ's birth, just a prophecy with a reference to a bright star heralding the blessed event. when one tries to prove "God" scientifically, one runs into problems. does anyone here really think that if Christ himself showed up at any of our houses on Christmas Day that any of our tree-worshipping or Santa infused gift giving would strike Him as an appropriate way to "celebrate" our Gift?

(in reply to MizSuz)

Post #: 14

RE: Jesus? - 12/26/2004 11:31:47 AM

rubytuesday

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I was always brought up to belie ve that Dec 25th was the celebration of Christs birth not his actual birthday - how many people have been born through the years and not known which day their birthday was on so celebrated a day that became their "birthday" - if that makes sense.

As for me - I have chosen to bring my children up in a secular environment manner - rightly or wrongly - when they are old enough they will be able to decide which way they want to go - for them Christmas is about Santa and presents and family - they dont know who jesus is or was and I'm sure when my eldest starts school next year her education in that will begin too depending on the curriculum.

smiles
ruby

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RE: Jesus? - 12/30/2004 11:34:34 AM

Tristan

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As long as we are discuss the birth of Jesus, what do you think the H stands for in Jesus H. Christ? I was thinking maybe Howard, but that's just a guess...Just kidding.

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RE: Jesus? - 12/30/2004 9:12:10 PM

ShadeDiva

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I've studied a lot of religions over the years - and pretty much evidence points to Jesus' birth being closer to Easter.

Christianity took over a lot of older relgious holidays, it was a way to prevent the "pagans" and "savages" from attending their ceremonies in order to help convert them. Christianity wasn't and isn't the only religion to cultivate this practice to further their religous agendas and grow their followers. Greeks did it. Romans did it. Every powerful religion has done the same thing. It's a standard conversion process.

Just Christianity seems to be a lot better about getting folks to forget that, and they are fiercely protective of their myths. And yes, some of the things that Christians will often tote as truth are what others, or those that look objectively, and ask those tough questions, would term myths.

I could stir the pot and throw in a favorite pot stirring topic of mine, but ah, it can result in explosive debates and mind numbing quibbling over semantics, so I shan't. lol

~ShadeDiva, who is being good tonight! Yay! *chortle*

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RE: Jesus? - 12/30/2004 9:14:46 PM

ShadeDiva

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tristan
As long as we are discuss the birth of Jesus, what do you think the H stands for in Jesus H. Christ?

Hubert.

Maybe Hugo.

lol

I prefer the phrase "for christ out loud!", myself. I dunno why. I guess for the same reason that I prefer the phrase "for the love of gilligan!".

Fuck it. I'm just weird. LOL!

~ShadeDiva

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