BDSM Groups and the Law

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MemphisDsCouple -> BDSM Groups and the Law (12/24/2004 10:28:28 AM)
Sometimes a few unrelated events with similarities in content coincide in timing and coalesque in the mind to form a cohesive view of a topic. Therefore, I offer Event: I contacted Spanksgiving (in St. Louis) about tickets to their Thanksgiving BDSM weekend trade show, conference and play. They sent an invitational email. I declined their invitation. (See below.) Event: I read on the Collarme message board a thread about people getting busted for vibrators and the like. Also in this thread, a poster pointed out that s&m practices are, by and large, illegal. Event: I read in another Collarme thread some anecdotal references to people losing jobs, having problems with divorces and child custody issues all of which are related their practice of d/s and s&m. Event: I read in still another Collarme thread that no small number of the readers and writers of these message boards are involved in sponsoring/managing/conducting BDSM groups and functions. Event (oh yeah... just remembered this one): The guy in Illinois who was laughed out of the Senate race when it was revealed he attended some sex clubs. (Were those s&m clubs?) Event: A couple months ago a new local BDSM group is formed. I join. I attend a function. (Later the group splinters and dies, but that's another story.) Event: A new (and different) local BDSM group rises from the ashes of the one that just disintegrated. I join via email group. I/we (my girl and I) meet the founding couple for lunch. (On me. My pleasure. Had a nice time/lunch.) That group sends me an email. (See below.) Event: (AS I write this I check the internet for the formal name of the group that sponsors Spanksgiving (and the Beat Me In St. Louis function) and I run across this news story about BMISL: http://www.bpnews.net/bpnews.asp?ID=13067 Enough with the events already! If you do some googling you'll find ample examples of legal persecution of BDSM groups and practitioners. My rant: S&m activities are illegal. It's not for me in this thread to offer proof of this statement of fact. If the reader doubts this, I suggest you call your lawyer and verify independently to your own satisfaction that s&m activities are illegal, consent notwithstanding. According to my research into the subject the legal reasoning is that one can not make an illegal act legal by consent. For instance: If one consents to be bribed, the bribery is still illegal. If one consents to have one's home burned down, it is still arson. If one consents to be murdered, it is still murder. And so on. If one consents to assault (being struck physically) it is still assault. The above doesn't even go into the legal ramifications of the sexuality involved in BDSM group activities, which is going to be ruled illegal in a large number of courts in our country. Now let's take a look at a best-case legal scenario. (Once one becomes involved in the legal system, that is.) Your case gets thrown out of court on a technicality or just because the judge realizes she has better things to do. More of the best case scenario: You don't have employment issues from which you will suffer due to your legal exposure. You don't have relationship or family issues that will be problematic from your legal exposure. You don't have divorce or child care issues that will be negatively affected by your being part of an over zealous cop/investigator/prosecutor's personal crusade against BDSM evil. And, you're not running for (and not going to run for) public office. You still have to hire a lawyer, probably make an appearance, have a buncha damn conferences and endure all the grief that is part and parcel of being caught up as a criminally charged defendant in our legal system. And, maybe you'd like the notoriety of seeing your name in print. How do I know what you like? My big problem with Stl. Louis Leather and Lace, other promoters of groups with similar registration procedures and with the new local BDSM group in my area: These people want registrants to provide legal names, home addresses, and in some cases driver's license numbers. Oh yeah, this information is confidential. Oh yeah, the group is discrete. And I'm the product of a virgin birth. But hey, let's look at a best case scenario again. The list of registrants actually is kept confidential. The keepers of these information lists actually are (true to their words) discrete. So the over zealous, on-a-mission-from-god cop/investigator/prosecutor serves the keepers of thes lists with a search warrant or a court order to turn over the lists. These list keepers are going to swallow their lists like a cold-war spy. And, in an act of personal sacrifice and to remain true to their word to never reveal the content of these lists of kinky revelers, the keepers of these lists will gladly impale themselves on the spearpoint of our criminal justice system. Right. Call me Santa Claus. While it's true that any event may be raided at any time - if you did your googling like I suggested above you probably found documented no small number of instances of raids occurring during functions. Still, being raided during an event is a measured risk in timing. The risk is there while you are present at the event, then it is gone. It does not linger like a list. And, one always holds out the hope that one can evade the raiders should worst come to worst. Not possible when there is a list of attendees. Why create a documented list of attendees? No reason holds water. The primary reason cited is to make sure no minors sneak in. So require a picture ID to be shown at the door by anyone whose legal age status is even remotely questionable. Showing an ID is way different from having the details of that ID residing on a list of incrimination somewhere. If the reasoning to create an attendee list is to participate in the group hotel discounts, this can easily be accomplished by a code word or group registration confirmation number. Speaking from experience, that's the way most business and other groups handle the group discount on hotel rates anyway. The plain truth is there is no good reason to create lists of attendees to BDSM functions and groups. And there are significant reasons not to create these lists. Groups and functions can function quite well without creating this liability for their members and attendees. When I joined Threshold in LA, no ID required. Thank you very much for having common sense Threshold. (One of the largest groups in the country if I am not mistaken.) Personally, I decline invitations and opportunities to attend functions or join groups that create documented lists of attendees. But at the same time, I would prefer to participate in some of these things were it not for the onerous list risk involved. My call to arms: If you are involved in the management of a group or function, find a way to operate without creating lists of members' and attendees' identities. If you are presented with an invitation or opportunity to join a BDSM group or attend a BDSM function that requires your legal identity be listed - decline. And, very importantly, tell them why!!! Thanks for reading my rant.

MistressDREAD -> RE: BDSM Groups and the Law (12/24/2004 6:52:59 PM)
And Your point is? ~smiles~[8\|]

alwayzron -> RE: BDSM Groups and the Law (12/24/2004 9:49:22 PM)
B. Very interesting (and long winded) post. You are correct in stating that consent does not equal legality. However ... dot com ... the law doesn't alwayz pursue the 'miscreants' who engage in some illicit behaviors. I can give you two examples here in San Diego ... 1 - ClubX (I might be mistaken) had several instances where the police would attend play parties and arrest the participants. ((Like ... there's no crime anywhere else in this city they can't be protecting us from???)) ClubX has lawyers who are members (and again I might be mistaken) and have prevented any future 'police actions' by requiring all persons entering to sign statements saying that they're not members of law enforcement agencies. The loophole here, being, that undercover police would be acting deceitfully to lie about their status, and then to make arrests. If anyone has the real scoop on this (ClubX members?) please let us know. 2 - Black's Beach is the most beautiful stretch of beach in La Jolla (my opinion). And although nudity is illegal, on any given summer day there are easily 1000 or so naked people swimming, running, BBQing, etc ..... and the whole time, the Lifeguards drive up and down the 3 mile stretch of sand and harrasses no one. Why? How can you arrest 1000 people?

phoenix52 -> RE: BDSM Groups and the Law (12/24/2004 11:07:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: alwayzron B. Very interesting (and long winded) post. You are correct in stating that consent does not equal legality. However ... dot com ... the law doesn't alwayz pursue the 'miscreants' who engage in some illicit behaviors. I can give you two examples here in San Diego ... It must be nice to live in a decent place... :) Here in the Bible Belt, we have had quite the bruhaha when some off duty kinky cops attended a fetish event a few years ago and someone saw them... the mayor got into it and stated arrests would be made if anything like that came to light again. And there is an event organizer in our town with two charges of "running a house of prostitution" on his record. (I do not know the details on that one, he was probably not being very careful...)

alwayzron -> RE: BDSM Groups and the Law (12/24/2004 11:28:01 PM)
Phx52, If you're ever in San Diego ... I would highly recommend you find the Torry Pines Glider Port in La Jolla and make your way to the beach. It sits at the base of some awesome cliffs that give a great view of the Pacific. The sand itself has black and gold streaks in it. It's awesome. Sadly ... I'm move north in a few days and my time in the sun is coming to an end. [&o]

Moleculor -> RE: BDSM Groups and the Law (12/25/2004 2:05:06 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MistressDREAD And Your point is? Try that thing they call "reading". ------ To the OP: Hrm. Yeah, you've got a point. I've joined two groups before... makes me wonder if I gave them my info or not. I can't remember.

MizSuz -> RE: BDSM Groups and the Law (12/25/2004 8:22:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MemphisDsCouple Oh yeah, this information is confidential. Oh yeah, the group is discrete. And I'm the product of a virgin birth. But hey, let's look at a best case scenario again. The list of registrants actually is kept confidential. The keepers of these information lists actually are (true to their words) discrete. So the over zealous, on-a-mission-from-god cop/investigator/prosecutor serves the keepers of thes lists with a search warrant or a court order to turn over the lists. These list keepers are going to swallow their lists like a cold-war spy. And, in an act of personal sacrifice and to remain true to their word to never reveal the content of these lists of kinky revelers, the keepers of these lists will gladly impale themselves on the spearpoint of our criminal justice system. Right. Call me Santa Claus. Destroying evidence is called "Spoliation" and it REALLY pisses judges off. Impale yourself on the justice system indeed. quote: ORIGINAL: MemphisDsCouple The plain truth is there is no good reason to create lists of attendees to BDSM functions and groups. And there are significant reasons not to create these lists. In some instances (depends on where you are) you can't be a "private club" unless the attendees are "members" and in some places that requires a membership roster. Check your local laws. I agree with your argument, however; that an over zealous ANYBODY can make your life hell, even if you are exonerated.

MissFem -> RE: BDSM Groups and the Law (12/25/2004 9:01:40 AM)
was there a point?

Moleculor -> RE: BDSM Groups and the Law (12/25/2004 5:25:43 PM)
The POINT was this: 1. BDSM is illegal. 2. You participating in BDSM means you're breaking the law. 3. BDSM groups are, by definition, illegal. 4. Handing your personal information over to a BDSM group is dangerous, because if they're ever "rounded up" by the authorities, your name, address, and other personal information is in their records, which means the authorites will be knocking on your door next. Even if it's five years later and you only went that one time. So be careful about handing out personal information, and it might be a good idea to try to stick to groups that don't require it. What, is everyone dense these days?

MizSuz -> RE: BDSM Groups and the Law (12/25/2004 5:59:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Moleculor The POINT was this: 1. BDSM is illegal. 2. You participating in BDSM means you're breaking the law. 3. BDSM groups are, by definition, illegal. 4. Handing your personal information over to a BDSM group is dangerous, because if they're ever "rounded up" by the authorities, your name, address, and other personal information is in their records, which means the authorites will be knocking on your door next. Even if it's five years later and you only went that one time. So be careful about handing out personal information, and it might be a good idea to try to stick to groups that don't require it. What, is everyone dense these days? Not dense, but obviously too diplomatic to get through to some. I disagree with your points 1 through 3. It's dependant on where you are and how it goes down. I agree with #4.

GoddessJules -> RE: BDSM Groups and the Law (12/25/2004 6:10:00 PM)
quote: I disagree with your points 1 through 3. It's dependant on where you are and how it goes down. I concur with you Suz, The "dense" people are the ones that believe BDSM is all about pain and whipping people. There are the sublte nuances that we all enjoy, such as foot worship, having domestic help (houseboys/girls), denial or orgasms, and hell. . .I even require some of my boys to learn the Japanese tea ceremony ritual. All these activities fall under the umbrella of BDSM. (Especially the DS part.) I can just see it. Atlanta, Ga A woman was arrested for requiring another individual to go through formal Japanese tea ceremony classes. This individual was indentified as being her domestic servant as well. Her hearing is scheduled for Monday morning. Jules

stef -> RE: BDSM Groups and the Law (12/25/2004 6:24:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GoddessJules The "dense" people are the ones that believe BDSM is all about pain and whipping people. There are the sublte nuances that we all enjoy, such as foot worship, having domestic help (houseboys/girls), denial or orgasms Jules, you know better than to bring common sense into a discussion like this. It uttelry ruins the flow of juvenile hyperbole! quote: and hell. . .I even require some of my boys to learn the Japanese tea ceremony ritual. Chado or chaji? [;)] ~stef

GoddessJules -> RE: BDSM Groups and the Law (12/25/2004 6:57:11 PM)
quote: Jules, you know better than to bring common sense into a discussion like this. It uttelry ruins the flow of juvenile hyperbole! Ahhh. .that word hyperbole. . .it soooo reminds me of Descartes (when it is not used in the mathematical sense.) I read a doctoral dissertation on hyperbolic doubt. . .fascinating. Now I must go ponder the lofty premise. quote: Chado or chaji? I'm not a big fan of chanoyu per se. . .I had my share of being tortured by trying to "master" it (I was born and raised in Japan) but when it comes to observing/participating, I prefer it to be as simple as possible. (Call me a minimalist.) Chaji would be way too long for me to be on my knees.[;)] Jules

ProScatman -> RE: BDSM Groups and the Law (12/25/2004 7:31:37 PM)
I can not understand how such creative people can miss the point here! Just imagine the do gooders who claim they are doing a public service by sticking thier nose in others private lives? For instance, here in Lorain, Ohio, the police will sometimes in the summer arrest hookers and thier johns, and put thier names in the news papers! I've never been invited to join any group, but if I were, I'd only be willing to prove my age (Yaha), but no written records! Generally, people who practice BDSM, and are into pain only use common items like cains, whips, clips, etc, not guns! So, up against the wall M.Frs, and the first one to raise a whip will be shot! My point is: if given a choice a cop would A. Arrest a bunce of BDSM'rs, and have the time of thier lives making jokes or B. Go after a gang who deals drugs, shoots back at you and carries sub-machineguns, and gives them 10% off the top? The bottom line is the more private information someone has about you, the less privacy you have! And yes I'm cynicle!

DomButNotForgotn -> RE: BDSM Groups and the Law (12/25/2004 8:25:19 PM)
I doubt I could ever surrender my legal identity just to enter a club, function, or other event that had possible negative consequences. Yes, many BSDM activities are technically illegal, because consent is not considered to be freely given - it's dumb and annoying, but that's the rules - work around them. In most communities, cops have wisely decided not to piss of judges with minor busts over sex toys or Mistress Whips-a-lot & her kinky activities. Well - unless it's an election year & they know somebody the want to burn is a client... As far as big BDSM conferences & events, to allow anomymity for vendors with booths, etc, they could require money orders... To repeat part of an earlier post - get those anti-sex league types away from the legislative process!! Let FREEDOM reign...

stef -> RE: BDSM Groups and the Law (12/25/2004 9:55:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GoddessJules Ahhh. .that word hyperbole. . .it soooo reminds me of Descartes (when it is not used in the mathematical sense.) I read a doctoral dissertation on hyperbolic doubt. . .fascinating. Now I must go ponder the lofty premise. You can ponder that while I watch the rest of 'The Last Samurai'. quote: I'm not a big fan of chanoyu per se. . .I had my share of being tortured by trying to "master" it (I was born and raised in Japan) but when it comes to observing/participating, I prefer it to be as simple as possible. (Call me a minimalist.) Chaji would be way too long for me to be on my knees.[;)] I can understand that, as much as kneeling appeals, my right knee just doesn't like to be in that position and it has no trouble letting me know that fact. But I suspect our reasons for not kneeling might differ somewhat [;)] ~stef

Lordandmaster -> RE: BDSM Groups and the Law (12/26/2004 2:30:44 AM)
I agree with your conclusion, namely that groups should avoid asking for members' real names and addresses. But your claims about the legality of BDSM can't be right. What takes place on a football field would be assault if it occurred anywhere other than a football field. That means there must be something wrong with your general principle that assault is always assault regardless of the circumstances. Lam quote: ORIGINAL: MemphisDsCouple According to my research into the subject the legal reasoning is that one can not make an illegal act legal by consent. For instance: If one consents to be bribed, the bribery is still illegal. If one consents to have one's home burned down, it is still arson. If one consents to be murdered, it is still murder. And so on. If one consents to assault (being struck physically) it is still assault.

MemphisDsCouple -> RE: BDSM Groups and the Law (12/26/2004 8:56:53 AM)
The (hopefully) Last Roundup: quote: ORIGINAL: alwayzron (snipped) the law doesn't alwayz pursue the 'miscreants... here in San Diego 1 - ClubX (I might be mistaken) had several instances where the police would attend play parties and arrest the participants. The loophole here, being, that undercover police would be acting deceitfully to lie about their status, and then to make arrests. although nudity is illegal... there are easily 1000 or so naked people How can you arrest 1000 people? Hi ron. Before you posted, I would have granted a minor qualification to the points I made for the sake of southern California's large cities. (LA, SD and SF (included)). However, your post just goes to show that even in live-and-let-live SoCal we practitioners of the kinky arts are not safe from the legal intrusion of the long-arm-of-the-prejudiced-law. Ok. There were s&m club busts in San Diego. Thanks for helping me make my point(s). Oh hell. More about the law. While you are talking with your attorney about the legality of s&m activities, ask about this popular fiction that cops/investigators/undercovers are barred from lying. This is a popular fiction. They get to lie. They get to tell you they're the Wizard of Oz. They get to tell you your buddy is spilling his guts in the other room. They get to tell you they're not cops. And they get to tell you they're hookers, drug dealers, drug buyers or whatever they like. And yes, they can even tell you they are not cops. Geez. The law doesn't care. They might even get a medal. Lying is not entrapment. But don't take my word. Ask your lawyer. The whole thing about 1000 naked people on a beach precisely illustrates another point. Namely, rounding up people in numbers in the flesh is problematic. If one attends a BDSM function, one can hold the hope that one can escape the clutches of misguided legal raiders. (Like your 1000 naked people.) A written list of attendees, however, hands over the ID of every kinkster to be followed up on and prosecuted/persecuted at the leisure (and as 8-hour shifts and/or overtime may allow) of any crusading-against-this-filth fanatic. Thanks for your help. quote: ORIGINAL: MizSuz quote: ORIGINAL: Moleculor The POINT was this: 1. BDSM is illegal. 2. You participating in BDSM means you're breaking the law. 3. BDSM groups are, by definition, illegal. 4. Handing your personal information over to a BDSM group is dangerous, because if they're ever "rounded up" by the authorities, your name, address, and other personal information is in their records, which means the authorites will be knocking on your door next. Even if it's five years later and you only went that one time. So be careful about handing out personal information, and it might be a good idea to try to stick to groups that don't require it. What, is everyone dense these days? Not dense, but obviously too diplomatic to get through to some. I disagree with your points 1 through 3. It's dependant on where you are and how it goes down. I agree with #4. quote: ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster I agree with your conclusion, namely that groups should avoid asking for members' real names and addresses. But your claims about the legality of BDSM can't be right. What takes place on a football field would be assault if it occurred anywhere other than a football field. That means there must be something wrong with your general principle that assault is always assault regardless of the circumstances. (Sigh) On the possibility that some reader might think that whether s&m activities are illegal, or conduct their affairs thinking that "consent" somehow creates legality, and thereby do themselves harm by getting embroiled with the law..... 1. I have asked several attorneys about this (over a period of time). 2. Best of all, and as I suggested in my original writing, don't take anyone's word for it from an online source. Call your lawyer and ask!!! Read my post to your attorney. I have full confidence she will tell you I have written is good information. 3. When we write here we should consider that there are people who will read these posts with the goal in mind of learning things. It is a grave disservice to those people when we fail to do our homework before we write here, especially on an issue that can have such dire personal consequences as convincing the reader that s&m activities are legal based on consensuality. (In this case doing our homework is calling our attorney to find out the truth and facts before we write. And, by the way, I have done that.) 4. About football: I am not an attorney. As I said in my original post, call your lawyer for an explanation of the fine points of the legal differences involved. They do exist. Find out. Don't just guess. 5. If you do not have a relationship with an attorney, you can probably get a quick and dirty answer from one of the "kink friendly lawyers" listed on the kinky professionals website. I don't recall the site but if you do a google you can find it quickly. If anyone still needs assistance with this, write to me privately and I'll help you find the list of kinky professionals. Probably one of them will give you a quick and dirty professional "yes, s&m is technically illegal, and yes you are at risk of prosecution by any legal zealot". 6. In a best case legal interpretation, s&m activities provide legal officialdom more than the minimum required to make arrests and/or to file charges. The harm is done at that point. It merely becomes a question of how much harm you are going to have to endure. quote: ORIGINAL: MizSuz I agree with your argument, however; that an over zealous ANYBODY can make your life hell, even if you are exonerated. Exactly. Even if you have an attorney who is worthy of the heritage of Daniel Webster and Clarence Darrow and that amazing attorney gets you off the hook free and clear, or like I said in my original post if you get off, "just because the judge realizes she has better things to do"...... you still lose. My call to arms: If you are involved in the management of a group or function, find a way to operate without creating lists of members' and attendees' identities. If you are presented with an invitation or opportunity to join a BDSM group or attend a BDSM function that requires your legal identity be listed - decline. And, very importantly, tell them why!!! Thanks for reading my rant. _____________________________ B. (the male half of MemphisDsCouple)

proudsub -> RE: BDSM Groups and the Law (12/26/2004 10:16:05 AM)
Another question-does posting here about your private bdsm activities put you in any jeopardy with the law?

topcat -> RE: BDSM Groups and the Law (12/26/2004 12:32:51 PM)
quote: 6. In a best case legal interpretation, s&m activities provide legal officialdom more than the minimum required to make arrests and/or to file charges. The harm is done at that point. It merely becomes a question of how much harm you are going to have to endure. This is really the crux of the issue. Outside of a local zealot in a public position, police are not going to activly persue a club or event, if they can avoid it. The biggest danger is quasi-legal clubs or parties, and beat cops. Vice cops will not bust people unless they see a clear case. Beat cops on the other hand, are likely to arrest everyone in sight, for whatever they can think of, just to be on the safe side. While NYShas no statues that prohibit BDSM, participants can be aressted for unlawful imprisionment, Lewd and lavicious behavior, brandishment of a weapon, Battery, conspiarcy to comit unlawful acts, Endangerment of the welfare of a minor, Obstruction of an Investigation, violations of health, fire or zoning laws, or anything they can think of. Once there is an offical status to the situation, the DA is in a sticky sitution. He doesn't want this case, as it is lousy, but if he lets it go, someone will be outraged that those perverts are getting off scot-free. Consider Paddleboro- The above is basiclly what happened when a few cops, checking a storage facility for stolen goods, came across a play party. Vice cops would have checked the sitution and moved on- these guys weren't vice, and they thought they had stumbled on the crime of the century....

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