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RE: some philosophy (eek!) of fantasy - 8/14/2006 6:10:43 PM

marieToo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DoctorDubious

quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo

.....snip

Person A says, "I did not lie to you" and person B says "I think you're fulla shit". Person A may be able to change person B's belief.

But theres still only one truth.

Person A either told a lie or he didnt, regardless of what Person B believes to be fact.

.....snip........

Greetings all "one-true-version" folks...
and the few others who trickle by..

Hmmmmmm. This the majority opinion, to be sure.

Have you ever seen the movie Rashomon?

Critics agree it's one of the best movies ever made,
and I am quite sure when you are done watching it,
you will know exactly which story was the "one truth" ...

I think you will like this movie, you can rent it in any good vid-shop.

DD
In psychology, we call it the "Rashomon Effect"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rashomon_(film)

Oh great. Theres a name for this?? lol. Never heard of the movie, but seems interesting enough to check out. Thanks!

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RE: some philosophy (eek!) of fantasy - 8/14/2006 8:27:29 PM

crouchingtigress

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warning: this post rambles incoherently for a bit then circles around to a point, then wafts off again.... then finally settles somewhere between empowerment and nanny nanny figgy.

*grins at marietoo*....hmmmm i like that name......glad i tempted you because what you said was perfect....and i am glad with all this high philosophical debate in which i am painfully over my head intellectually, you brought it all home with what i can relate to... purse shopping! (i am a coach girl myself)

i have have an incredible on line relationship that moved me deeper then i thought possible. all relationships are different, and all even the ones where you find your self with a "poof boy" a rotter, or a scoundrel are real....

ill be honest marie i really dont understand Noah's post either, i am just interpreting it as best i can with my limited mental faculties, but so what....right?

i mean who cares, ...so what if some think that makes me a poser or unreal, to them i may be, but that changes nothing...just like the great philosophical debate of whether we are all figments of some ones dream, well hell we might be but how does that change anything?

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RE: some philosophy (eek!) of fantasy - 8/14/2006 8:53:32 PM

juliaoceania

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quote:

ORIGINAL: crouchingtigress

warning: this post rambles incoherently for a bit then circles around to a point, then wafts off again.... then finally settles somewhere between empowerment and nanny nanny figgy.

*grins at marietoo*....hmmmm i like that name......glad i tempted you because what you said was perfect....and i am glad with all this high philosophical debate in which i am painfully over my head intellectually, you brought it all home with what i can relate to... purse shopping! (i am a coach girl myself)

i have have an incredible on line relationship that moved me deeper then i thought possible. all relationships are different, and all even the ones where you find your self with a "poof boy" a rotter, or a scoundrel are real....

ill be honest marie i really dont understand Noah's post either, i am just interpreting it as best i can with my limited mental faculties, but so what....right?

i mean who cares, ...so what if some think that makes me a poser or unreal, to them i may be, but that changes nothing...just like the great philosophical debate of whether we are all figments of some ones dream, well hell we might be but how does that change anything?

I haven't read Danto, so I felt at a disadvantage right there..smiles.

I think it was a post designed to get us thinking about the nature of reality.. but then again I could be wrong about that, and having a blonde moment here. As such there really is no wrong answer...

As far as marie's truth... well the problem is, you may just be lying to yourself about that...(hope you got the humor of that statement..smiles)

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RE: some philosophy (eek!) of fantasy - 8/14/2006 9:03:24 PM

Homestead

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In fantasies one has control. In reality, we have the unsettling lack of total control.

In fact, reality often points to our fantasies being foolish and unworkable.

So it is hardly surprising that fantasy has been gloried at the expense of it's dreary mundane counterpart.

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RE: some philosophy (eek!) of fantasy - 8/14/2006 9:17:32 PM

marieToo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: crouchingtigress

warning: this post rambles incoherently for a bit then circles around to a point, then wafts off again.... then finally settles somewhere between empowerment and nanny nanny figgy.

*grins at marietoo*....hmmmm i like that name......glad i tempted you because what you said was perfect....and i am glad with all this high philosophical debate in which i am painfully over my head intellectually, you brought it all home with what i can relate to... purse shopping! (i am a coach girl myself)

i have have an incredible on line relationship that moved me deeper then i thought possible. all relationships are different, and all even the ones where you find your self with a "poof boy" a rotter, or a scoundrel are real....

ill be honest marie i really dont understand Noah's post either, i am just interpreting it as best i can with my limited mental faculties, but so what....right?

i mean who cares, ...so what if some think that makes me a poser or unreal, to them i may be, but that changes nothing...just like the great philosophical debate of whether we are all figments of some ones dream, well hell we might be but how does that change anything?

To hell with Socrates! We got Coach!

We can do this philosophy stuff too.

If a girl doesnt own the classic willis bag in every color ever made, is she actually living, or is her heart merely beating?

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RE: some philosophy (eek!) of fantasy - 8/14/2006 9:20:37 PM

juliaoceania

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Egads, I only have one designer bag, and I bought it at a yardsale.. seriously, if I wear a bag it is usually a backpack... terrible it it true, and I do not wear makeup either... I know it is horrible.. and get this, I do not even have a bottle of hairspray!

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RE: some philosophy (eek!) of fantasy - 8/14/2006 9:35:03 PM

marieToo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Egads, I only have one designer bag, and I bought it at a yardsale.. seriously, if I wear a bag it is usually a backpack... terrible it it true, and I do not wear makeup either... I know it is horrible.. and get this, I do not even have a bottle of hairspray!

Thats ok. With that body of yours, no one is gonna notice!

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RE: some philosophy (eek!) of fantasy - 8/14/2006 9:38:29 PM

SusanofO

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Is the question here really which is better? "Real life" or fantasy?
Because I truly think that in the case of bdsm role playing, the two are hopelessly intermingled. I'd really have a hard time choosing, if I had to pick just one.

Noah: Is that the question here? Or are we all supposed to just comment however we want to? Help me out here: I am an oldest child, and cannot "deal" with a "lack of direction"....yes I am teasing you (sort of)

I don't mean to sound stupid (I am not, but realize I can sound like it, at times).

But - I have to say - I love this post. it's nice to have a chance to ramble on an on and not have anyone _itch about it. Not that people normally do that but (to me anyway) - it's a very good topic, I think, and people responding could all obviously go on forever - and talk about anything from Aristotle to shoes, to apples to _______.

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 8/14/2006 10:12:24 PM >

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RE: some philosophy (eek!) of fantasy - 8/14/2006 10:08:28 PM

crouchingtigress

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Jo: *giggles so hard at your post she accidentally drools*...yeah that is sexy.

Mt: here is the lame truth about me and shopping, i suck at it, but sadly it does not keep me from doing it. but since we are being all philosophical in this thread, why is it that women love pouches and boxes?

SoO: oh is that what this post is about? i wish he would come back and explain it too us all but it appears Noah has left the building.

If the question is which is better i would have to answer that when it comes to relationships ill take the fantasy for now until further notice.

On a side note i once tried to flirt in real life with Noah and ended up doing a nose dive into a cement pond...(i truly suck at flirting)... in fact he does not even speak to me any more....so yeah ill take fantasy any day....

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RE: some philosophy (eek!) of fantasy - 8/14/2006 10:11:19 PM

DoctorDubious

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

Because I truly think that in the case of bdsm role playing, the two are hopelessly intermingled.

I'd really have a hard time choosing, if I had to pick just one.

Greetings to all shadows on the wall of this cyber-cave,

It was precisely MY long and rambling point
that not only are reality and imagination/fantasy hopelessly intermingled,
but that none of us can choose only one.

And it also followed,
from the Dubious Theory of Emotional Immune Systems
that you might just as well,

therefore...

choose the fantasies/imagined stories of yourself
that give you the best shot at a happy, authentic, but ultimately useful life.

DD,
in a craven bow to consumer culture,
and the shopper-crowd,
I do occasionally wear a trendy man-purse,
which seems to go over well here in west hollywood
to my naive-canadian surprise...
and some of the swarthiest gals wink at me...
whatever could they mean?

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RE: some philosophy (eek!) of fantasy - 8/14/2006 10:18:00 PM

SusanofO

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Well, I'll take the theory of applied Emotional Immune Systems, then - for one-hundred, Alex! (he).

I get it - I understand it. It makes sense to me that it is probably more productive (and happier) for me to wend my way through life really believing I am, for instance, actually a combination of Christie Brinkley and Mother Theresa and an immensely wealthy successful business person - than to go through life either thinking I am nothing special and have no particular reason to be here on the planet or (eek) - a complete screw up. Nobody wins with this last scenario...least of all - me.

*After-thought: Of course, usually - the Mother Theresa persona part would never manage to find her way into my colorful night-time activities, he. There might actually be a way to work that in - I'd have to think harder about that.

Then again, that is what good imaginations are for.

I know one thing - she won't be using a purse. Or wearing any shoes.

Or any clothes , for that matter.

Somebody - say something. Anything.

Well - maybe the Mother Theresa part and the wealthy business person part sort of conflict, as far as "values" - maybe. But then again - it is my fantasy.

*I know I should be taking this all more seriously (possibly, although possibly NOT) - but I can't do much about it unti someone again writes a philosophical tome - I am just not up on my philosophy. But - I promise to get serious if someone else does it (really I promise). I am just in a crazy mood.
No disrespect intended - to anyone.

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 8/14/2006 10:37:01 PM >

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RE: some philosophy (eek!) of fantasy - 8/15/2006 5:59:23 AM

ExSteelAgain

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This is a brilliant, thought provoking, yet humorous thread that I have enjoyed. I would start complimenting posts, but I might leave one out and every one is extraordinary.

My philosophy on this comes back to my Hemingway analogy. I’m glad that he spent all that time viewing art to the point where he was inspired to create his own great art writing, boxing, drinking and fucking a zillion beautiful, artistic women.

< Message edited by ExSteelAgain -- 8/15/2006 6:40:27 AM >

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RE: some philosophy (eek!) of fantasy - 8/15/2006 7:23:38 AM

ExSteelAgain

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I started reading the news online in my office at work after posting and came across an interesting story concerning online relationships. A Dutch zoo is going to hook up orangutans via the internet for socialization. I guess it even works on a primal level for primates.

Dutch zoo hopes to put orangutans in touch via Internet
“We are going to set up an Internet connection between Indonesia and Apeldoorn so that the apes can see each other and, by means of pressing a button, be able to give one another food, for example," said Anouk Ballot, a spokeswoman for the Apenheul ape park in the central Dutch city of Apeldoorn.”

http://www.smh.com.au/news/Technology/Dutch-zoo-hopes-to-put-orangutans-in-touch-via-Internet/2006/08/15/1155407806044.html

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RE: some philosophy (eek!) of fantasy - 8/15/2006 7:49:29 AM

catize

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Talk about fantasy vs reality! Forgive me if I don't wait around for that apple to come shooting out of my monitor! lol

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RE: some philosophy (eek!) of fantasy - 8/15/2006 8:53:09 AM

marieToo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: crouchingtigress

Jo: *giggles so hard at your post she accidentally drools*...yeah that is sexy.

Mt: here is the lame truth about me and shopping, i suck at it, but sadly it does not keep me from doing it. but since we are being all philosophical in this thread, why is it that women love pouches and boxes?

SoO: oh is that what this post is about? i wish he would come back and explain it too us all but it appears Noah has left the building.

If the question is which is better i would have to answer that when it comes to relationships ill take the fantasy for now until further notice.

On a side note i once tried to flirt in real life with Noah and ended up doing a nose dive into a cement pond...(i truly suck at flirting)... in fact he does not even speak to me any more....so yeah ill take fantasy any day....

Ha! Well, I never flirted with Noah, I just went straight to groveling at his feet. He never did answer that email. Oh well. Life goes on. Besides, what would we do with him, once caught? You'd have to gag him. The guy could talk a girl straight to her death. Slow and torturous that would be. Ouch. "Yes yes, I'll do anything Sir, I'll do whatever you want, just please stop talking!"

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RE: some philosophy (eek!) of fantasy - 8/15/2006 9:34:42 AM

SusanofO

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That is so cute! I hope they enjoy it.

Now maybe the discussion could move from what constitutes "real" to what is considered "surreal", he...I think, actually, that is testimony to just how "real" virtual reality really is. Great post, ExSteel.

- Susan

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And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

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RE: some philosophy (eek!) of fantasy - 8/15/2006 10:47:29 AM

Fawne

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To NOAH:

Everything you can imagine is real.
Pablo Picasso

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RE: some philosophy (eek!) of fantasy - 8/15/2006 1:21:31 PM

popeye1250

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Susan, I always figured you were an "oldest child" for some reason! Maybe just your style of writing, I can't put my finger on it maybe intuition.
I am too. The oldest of 5.
We're, "The Responsable Ones."
It was always; "Look out for your younger brother Tommy, you're the oldest!" that kind of stuff.
And we didn't just play in the back yard in those days, we'd wander miles from home, play on the railroad tracks, run across busy highways, hop on slow moving freight trains and go into Boston to buy fireworks, hitch hike to get rides, go "slushing" in winter by grabbing onto the back bumpers of cars, ride in homemade rafts in big ponds that supposedly
"had no bottom" and otherwise terrorise the neighborhood. A lot of dangerous things for 8, 9, and 10 year old boys to be doing!
We'd fantacise about there being "another planet" just like this one with other "us's" on it who were doing the exact same things as us.
I always had the "fantasy" of traveling across country by train and when I was 11 years old I did it.
I saved my money from selling tomatoes door to door and took a train from Boston to San Francisco to visit my aunt and uncle all by myself.
I always fantasised about travel and I've done a great deal of it in my life, mostly by ship.
I think it's a "Saggittarious thing."
I've always had a vivid immagination and a rich fantasy life and it's surely helped in this wiiwd life too as I'd imagine different ways to tie a sub or different things to do to her.
I have somewhat of an analytical mind and it just transfers easily to B&D, music, art, politics, science, business, problem solving those types of things.
I think that having a good mind for fantasy is not only a good and healthy thing but also a very constructive thing as well.
People who have that "fantasy" mindset make good explorers, scientists, writers, and yes, M/s lifestylers too.
"Real life" and "Fantasy" can certainly be co-mingled in my opinion.
If you have a rich fantasy life you can use that to have a rich real life especially in wiiwd.

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RE: some philosophy (eek!) of fantasy - 8/15/2006 6:50:56 PM

SusanofO

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popeye: Actually, I was a fairly good kid. However, I tended to be the "experimental one", who liked to "try new things". Sometimes, it made my parents nuts.

My sister, the middle child, was my mother's "pet" and "did everything right", from getting fantastic grades (I did this too, but I had to be interested in the subject or I did not), to going to law school, to getting married at the "right age", to having children, to _________you name it. I do think, however, that I was (sort of) my father's "favorite" (although my dad tried not to show much favoritism, since he is such an egalitarian guy).

My youngest sister really was (and is) your stereotypical youngest kid - a party animal still, at the age of 40, who has a great sense of humor and who will try almost anything once. By the time she was a teenager, my parents were both pretty tired of worrying about what their kids did - and so she basically did whatever she wanted, all the time. Good thing she had at least a bit of common sense. And she wonders where my nieces (her daughters) get these attributes! Ha - they came from her. She is a really good person.

So is my middle sister, although - my middle sister really is an insufferable prude. If she was living in Victorian England, she'd fit right in. I have no idea how she got this way, as neither of my parents were like that in particular - if anything, they tended to be on the more "liberal" side of things.

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 8/15/2006 6:54:35 PM >

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And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

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RE: some philosophy (eek!) of fantasy - 8/19/2006 11:34:28 AM

Noah

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quote:

ORIGINAL: catize

It would seem it depends on what is expected from each reality.
If I wish to look at an apple for an extended period of time, a painting of one, or a wax fruit suits my purpose. It doesn't rot or draw fruitflies, it is a fixed image and never changes.
However, if I expect to be nourished by the painting or wax, then my expectations will be flaunted.
Both realities fill a need, perhaps, but it is important to understand the capabilities of each truth.

How nice to return from vacation to find several thoughtful responses to this thread. I thank each person who contributed. And I'll try to go through and offer some comments for whatever they might be worth.

I think catize above nicely amplifies Danto's featured point. She seems to say that for one use at least, an "unreal" apple is superior to a "real" one. The wax apple, being more durable will present a certain pleasing visual aspect for a longer time than a fresh apple will. This use of an apple ("apple" very broadly defined) is one where unreality in respect to actually being a botanical thing is superior to reality in that aspect.

I hope it is clear that this discussion has to do with the way that a thing or phenomenon or experience can be "unreal" in some significant aspect and that this fact has important results and implications. I'm not hewing to any single commanding sense of the word "real". Neither am I leaning on the idea that one person's reality differs, or as some claim is quite separate from another person's. Whether or not one wants to hold with ideas like these we can all recognize, I think, a sense in which a wax apple is unreal as compared to a botanical, grew-on-a-tree apple. We can do this even while we bear in mind that in another sense of the word "real" each of these two objects is just as real as can be.

So thanks, catize. I like that you brought in the notion of expectation on the part of the person choosing to deal in this of that sense of the reality of something.

Some people seem to fully expect that a person who has dark fantasies, say, is a dark person who has dark expectations or aspirations outside of her fantasy life. Some people who have dark fantasies go through a stage--maybe a permanent one in some cases--of feeling a certain kind of guilt or unease over their fantasies.

Taking things another step we see people who will criticize or attack someone for taking fantasy one giant step toward (greater?) reality by acting out fantasy fulfillment. That one would act out certain fantasies, in controlled and circumscribed ways, is taken be some to mean that this fantasy enactor fundamentally wants the experience which the fantasy enactment stands for or represents.

Of course in any number of cases this might be true. But in any number of cases it might be as the philosopher suggests that is is the persistant degree of unreality which must be present in order for the fantasy enactor to find the particular pleasure she finds in the act. Here I am using the word "act" both in the simple sense of referring to the physical and mental actions involved in the fantasy enactment as well as the sense of "acting something out."

As to the guilt or unease some feel with the enacted or unenacted fantasies of themselves or others, I suspect that part of the way this happens is from glossing over the important observation which Danto brings and which catize has held up at a new angle for us.

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