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Lebanon is Bush's war? - 8/14/2006 11:08:20 AM

meatcleaver

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I don't know how true it is but the news in most European media is that Lebanon was Bush's war by proxy and that this war was planned as early as spring. Whether all the different national medias have got the same news from the New Yorker magazine I don't know but apparently this news is also doing the rounds in Arab countries. If true, has Bush lost the USA yet more credibility?

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/articles/060821fa_fact

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RE: Lebanon is Bush's war? - 8/14/2006 11:18:20 AM

LadyEllen

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Not as much credibility as he has lost the Israeli Prime Minister, if its true. Its bad enough for "Ehud Olmut" (? not sure the spelling!) that he has been effectively defeated by Hezbollah and has not got the kidnapped soldiers back - it would surely add further insult if he had suffered this loss of rep for a guy like Bush?

Mind you, this would explain the ridiculous situation at the UN where they argued for days about the wording of a ceasefire while more innocents lost everything.

I have the satisfaction of knowing that what I posted a few weeks back was true - that the assault on Lebanon wouldnt get the soldiers back - but I'd much rather that there had been no assault and that common sense had prevailed from the start. Hezbollah wanted the return of prisoners held in Israel whose sentences had been served but who were still in gaol (jail) - a reasonable enough request which had been ignored by Israel. Kidnapping the two Israeli soldiers was wrong, but one has to ask what else could Hezbollah have done to raise the issue and try to get some progress on that issue?

E

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RE: Lebanon is Bush's war? - 8/14/2006 4:11:45 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Not as much credibility as he has lost the Israeli Prime Minister, if its true. Its bad enough for "Ehud Olmut" (? not sure the spelling!) that he has been effectively defeated by Hezbollah and has not got the kidnapped soldiers back - it would surely add further insult if he had suffered this loss of rep for a guy like Bush?

Mind you, this would explain the ridiculous situation at the UN where they argued for days about the wording of a ceasefire while more innocents lost everything.

I have the satisfaction of knowing that what I posted a few weeks back was true - that the assault on Lebanon wouldnt get the soldiers back - but I'd much rather that there had been no assault and that common sense had prevailed from the start. Hezbollah wanted the return of prisoners held in Israel whose sentences had been served but who were still in gaol (jail) - a reasonable enough request which had been ignored by Israel. Kidnapping the two Israeli soldiers was wrong, but one has to ask what else could Hezbollah have done to raise the issue and try to get some progress on that issue?

E

*emphasis added*

This story from US News and World Report disputes what you claim above.

"It happened more than a quarter century ago, yet the horror of that spring night back in 1979 is seared in the memory of Smadar Haran Kaiser and many Israelis of her generation. Neither she, nor they, will ever forget how her husband and two young daughters were killed when four Arab terrorists from Lebanon raided their apartment in the coastal city of Nahariya."

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/news/articles/060806/14prisoner.htm

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RE: Lebanon is Bush's war? - 8/15/2006 2:26:48 AM

LadyEllen

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Hi Level

Havent seen/heard that report sorry - I understood that Hezbollah wanted the return of hundreds of prisoners, all of whom had served their given sentences in Israel, but who were still being held. If the four you mention in particular have served their sentences, then they have to be released surely? By what standard of law can a prisoner be punished twice or have their sentence revised when it comes to an end?

Its inconvenient I realise, to release possibly dangerous people, but that is something that the original sentencing judge should have taken into account when they were first sentenced. I wouldnt want these four living in my neighbourhood, but if the Israelis wish to rely on their law abiding democratic status as a differentiator between them and their Arab neighbours, then they have to be bound by their word in such matters and release those prisoners whose sentences have been served and repatriate them - perhaps with the caveat that if any of them are caught on Israeli territory again then they will go back to prison for another twenty five years.

E

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RE: Lebanon is Bush's war? - 8/15/2006 3:19:13 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

*emphasis added*

This story from US News and World Report disputes what you claim above.

"It happened more than a quarter century ago, yet the horror of that spring night back in 1979 is seared in the memory of Smadar Haran Kaiser and many Israelis of her generation. Neither she, nor they, will ever forget how her husband and two young daughters were killed when four Arab terrorists from Lebanon raided their apartment in the coastal city of Nahariya."

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/news/articles/060806/14prisoner.htm

If the men have served their time, they have served their time, it's the price of being considered civilised and since that date thousands of people have died, many children and in worse circumstances. That is not to belittle this episode but to put it in perspective. Something like 1200 people about 450 of them children, have been killed in the last month and something like 125,000 people since the episode in question, of which about 100,000 are Arabs so Israel has had its retribution. Sometimes if people want peace they have to hold their breath. There are horrors to be told on both sides and its only by coming to terms with the fact that your horrors are not worse than your enemies can peace start to take shape.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 8/15/2006 3:20:07 AM >

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RE: Lebanon is Bush's war? - 8/15/2006 4:07:36 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Hi Level

Havent seen/heard that report sorry - I understood that Hezbollah wanted the return of hundreds of prisoners, all of whom had served their given sentences in Israel, but who were still being held. If the four you mention in particular have served their sentences, then they have to be released surely? By what standard of law can a prisoner be punished twice or have their sentence revised when it comes to an end?

Its inconvenient I realise, to release possibly dangerous people, but that is something that the original sentencing judge should have taken into account when they were first sentenced. I wouldnt want these four living in my neighbourhood, but if the Israelis wish to rely on their law abiding democratic status as a differentiator between them and their Arab neighbours, then they have to be bound by their word in such matters and release those prisoners whose sentences have been served and repatriate them - perhaps with the caveat that if any of them are caught on Israeli territory again then they will go back to prison for another twenty five years.

E

Hello Ellen and Meatcleaver. I agree that if someone has served their sentence, they should be released, but the main player in the story was sentenced to 500 plus years.

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RE: Lebanon is Bush's war? - 8/15/2006 4:59:40 AM

LadyEllen

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500 years!? A sentence of truly biblical proportions (should be torah-like but dont know the correct adjective!)

Absolutely - anyone still serving a sentence must not be released. As I understood it a few weeks back though, when the soldiers were initially captured, this was about a host of people rather than an individual.

Israel could have done much better to have released a few odd people in response to the kidnap - the onus and public opinion worldwide would then have been on Hezbollah to reciprocate. It might set a precedent, but then unless the Israeli army is as incapable of protecting itself and the border as the possibility of a repeat kidnapping might suggest, it is unlikely that Hezbollah could do the same for more prisoner exchanges surely?

As it is, we have thousands killed and maimed, entire towns destroyed, and Israel is humiliated militarily as well as minus two soldiers MIA in the north (and one in Gaza). Its an absolute fxxxin' disaster that could have been averted by some sensible thinking rather than rushing into a war that would never have returned those kidnapped.

How they will get the soldiers back remains to be seen, but I suspect that now after a few weeks of fighting, Hezbollah will likely raise the stakes at least.

E

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RE: Lebanon is Bush's war? - 8/19/2006 6:59:29 AM

Manawyddan

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I never considered this Bush's war ... it's Israel's war and fought for their own reasons ... however I do believe that by vocally announcing that America was encouraging Israel to continue its bombings in an attempt to eliminate Hezbollah, Bush did encourage the view overseas that Israel was operating as an American military base.

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RE: Lebanon is Bush's war? - 8/19/2006 7:51:14 AM

IronBear

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On a more philosophical view, People like GWB could be quite happy to encourage via subtle and most devious means armed disruptions like has happened in lebanon for whilst the world's masses are focusing on that the focus is to some degree off other contentious areas such as Afghanistan and Iraq. IOt is always worth looking at gains others have or will (in all likelyhood) from either a policical, personal power or fiscal base. Armes dealers and manufactures need discontent boarding on violent disruption to pedal their wares. I may be wrong, but the Fawlklands war probably swept Maggy Thatcher back into power with a good majority (Can't remember correctly and don't have time to research it anyway). The US may not have made large dollars directly over the conflict in Lebanon but I'd be suprised if there wasn't gain somewhere..

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RE: Lebanon is Bush's war? - 8/19/2006 9:10:40 AM

philosophy

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"I may be wrong, but the Fawlklands war probably swept Maggy Thatcher back into power with a good majority (Can't remember correctly and don't have time to research it anyway)."

Absolutely correct.......in fact we had a small military presence on the Falklands that was inexplicably withdrawn just when the Argentinians starting making noises about invading....

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RE: Lebanon is Bush's war? - 8/19/2006 9:10:41 AM

Arpig

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Lebanon is Bush's war??? Damn!! The man is just greedy! He already has 2 wars, he should finish the ones he has before he gets another.
That's it! I am going to tell on him...now where did I put Barbara's number in Kennebunkport?

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RE: Lebanon is Bush's war? - 8/19/2006 1:12:47 PM

peterK50

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There is a business school saying, "out of chaos comes opportunity". There certainly is chaos in the middle east. I subscribe to the old Watergate axiom, "Follow the money".

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