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More Propaganda? - 8/14/2006 12:55:38 PM   
Mercnbeth


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Wondering how many watched the Communications for Barbarians Service broadcast of 60 Minutes and the interview by the self loathing Mike Wallace. First we had a few years back Mr. Wallace and Saddam Hussein asking the hard hitting; “How do you feel?”, instead of the more appropriate, “How do you think your opponents feel when they are lowered slowly into an industrial paper shredder?” Mr. Wallace asked some similar very “hard hitting” questions of President Ahmadinejad. (Note: Previous sentence was sarcasm.)

He asked; “What do you think about Mr. Bush?” Note he did not refer to him as President Bush, however throughout the entire interview he referred to Ahmadinejad as president. He referred to President Bush as the leader of the “’so called’ Free World”. President Ahmadinejad agreed and answered by making the point that the “so called” reference was more important than any answer.

He did ask; “Israel, you have said time and again, Israel must be wiped off the map. Please explain why. And what is Iran doing about that?” But only once, and when it was never answered never again, yet he solicited President Ahmadinejad’s advise regarding the US Prison system and the state of US Health care. I guess when you just kill your opposition you have less in prison. Source: http://freedomspeace.blogspot.com/2006/07/democide-galore-iran-says-kill-them.html

If you get your hand cut off for protesting against or accused of an "armed uprising against the Islamic regime" you can at least take consolation that your medical cost is covered. Points that I would have made if given Mr. Wallace’s opportunity.

Interesting to note that the crime wasn’t against Iran, it was against an “Islamic regime”. The four men were arrested in Shiraz, southwestern Iran, on 23 June 2002. Reza Nazaarit and Mohammaad Safaavi were reportedly held in solitary confinement for 45 days prior to their trial. On 9 August 2002, a Revolutionary Court in Shiraz sentenced the four men to the amputation of the right hand and left foot on charges of "armed uprising against the Islamic regime" and theft. Is anyone in doubt or confused that the Islamic “religion” is not part of the problem but is the problem?

Never once did he refer to Jewish people. It should be noted the Mike Wallace was born Jewish, ergo the “self loathing” extends not only to the US, but to his ancestry.

Link to the 60 Minutes story site: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/08/09/60minutes/main1879867.shtml

If not arrested for the these references I would have gone on to ask about these:

Those who what a “real” slave may look to Iran for the opportunity:
quote:

A measure of the success of Islamists in controlling society is the depth and totality with which they suppress the freedom and rights of women. In Iran for 25 years, the ruling Islamists have enforced humiliating rules and punishments on women and girls, enslaving them in a gender apartheid system of segregation, forced veiling, second class status, lashing and stoning to death.
Source: http://www.iranian.ws/cgi-bin/iran_news/exec/view.cgi/2/3485

Sex predators also have a friendly environment to work in Iran:
quote:


A teenage girl and two young men in Iran have been sentenced to lashes for having sex. The court dismissed the girl's claim that she was raped. It said she had sex of her own free will, the official Iran Daily newspaper reported. The girl was sentenced to 100 lashes because her accusations of rape and kidnap could have landed her partners a death penalty, the Tehran judge said. Sex outside marriage is illegal in Iran and capital punishment can be imposed.

The young men in the case were sentenced to 30 and 40 lashes each.
Source: http://www.natashatynes.com/newswire/2005/02/_iran_girl_gets.html

quote:

Ashraf Kolhari, a mother of four children between the ages of nine and nineteen, is at imminent risk of execution by stoning for adultery. She has been held in Tehran’s Evin prison for five years, and should by law serve the remaining ten years of her prison sentence before she is executed.
Source: http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGMDE130832006?open&of=ENG-392

quote:

Two youths, aged eighteen and nineteen, were put to death on July 19 after they were found guilty of sexually assaulting a thirteen-year-old boy some fourteen months earlier. One of the youths was seventeen at the time of the offense.  Before the two youths were put to death, each also received 228 lashes for theft, disturbing public order, and consuming alcohol.  
Source: http://hrw.org/english/docs/2005/07/27/iran11486.htm

quote:


Earlier this year, they upheld a sentence of death on 16-year-old Atefeh Rajabi. Atefeh had also been convicted of "acts incompatible with chastity". In her defense, she said she had been sexually assaulted by an older man. The judges did not care. So, on August 16, at 6am, Atefeh was taken from her cell and hanged from a crane in the main square of the town of Neka. Witnesses report that she begged for her life as she was dragged kicking and screaming to the makeshift gallows. She shouted "repentance" over and over again – a gesture which, according to Islamic law, is supposed to grant the accused the right to an immediate stay of execution while an appeal is heard.

Atefeh's cries were in vain. Haji Rezaie, the judge who presided over her trial, put the noose around her neck himself. He said he was pleased to do it. "Society has to be kept safe from acts against public morality," he insisted. He ordered that her body be left hanging from the crane for several hours so people could see what happened to teenagers who "committed acts incompatible with chastity".
Source: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;jsessionid=OMEZ2KKA3301DQFIQMFCFFWAVCBQYIV0?xml=/news/2004/12/19/wiran19.xml

How nice that Mr. Wallace shared a pleasant dinner and interview with the man who runs the country where these activities took place and where they are still taking place, without comment. I imagine that journalism schools throughout the US will use Mr. Wallace’s example as a how propaganda is spread by a complicit news service.

Compare and contrast:

When the terror of the Abu Ghraib was reported it appeared in the NY Times for 35 straight days. When it was found a Koran was “defiled” because it was in a bathroom in a Guantanamo Cuba prison, it was a news story for months. Both initiated Congressional hearings. 2.5 Million have dies so far under Muslim hands in Darfur. Hundreds of thousands die every year under Chinese rule of Tibet. I challenge you to find one story on either topic on 60 Minutes over the last year. It would be just as difficult to find a story from any national US news source.
Yet, we in the US are part of the “free world” that is defined by the quotes around it. Mike Wallace says so. Why not challenge the “religion of peace” with a story next week on Muslim responsibility for what is occurring in Darfur.
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RE: More Propaganda? - 8/14/2006 1:10:44 PM   
LadyEllen


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Well. I'm just about sick of both these religions of the unholy land to be honest. If the church still had the power, they'd be doing similar things to women themselves - they did it in the past after all.

So on the one side we have christian fundies imposing themselves on us through the legislature and on the other we have muslim extremists trying to impose their will on us through terror.

I propose sponsored pilgrimages for all of them to Jerusalem, and then bomb the place flat and burn every bible, every church, every koran and every masjid. If I'm wrong, I'll gladly burn in hell for eternity - but I suspect I'd be doing the world a favour.
E

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RE: More Propaganda? - 8/14/2006 1:13:33 PM   
Kedikat


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Yeah. It's too bad that the US toppled a democratically elected government in Iran. And spent years supporting despots that did all those horrendous things as well. Of course they did it to protect oil interests. How dare a country try and control it's own resources.
After a while even going back to hard core muslim control looked good to Iranians. Checkout the fun things the Shah did to his dissenters. The US installed and supported Shah. From Democracy to tyrant monarchy courtesy greed of other countries.

The final result?

As always it seems. The general population screwed over, and hatred towards other countries.
But for a while, the oil flowed cheap and steady with profits for the powerful of other countries, and the correct despots.
Makes it all worthwhile huh.

Several countries screwed over Iran. The US was just the worst offender.

< Message edited by Kedikat -- 8/14/2006 1:24:54 PM >

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RE: More Propaganda? - 8/14/2006 1:23:28 PM   
Kedikat


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It is sad to see the wimpiness of the interviews with despots and such. But anyone who does get the rare chance to do one, has to kiss ass. The interview is never going to get seen if they don't. It's happened many times.
Ridiculous politeness, not asking a whole list of questions.
The really sad thing, is how that BS is seeping into all interviews and press conferences in various countries.
Too much staging, not allowed questions, shills.
So much is turning into nothing but fluff, with no challenge allowed. No chance to see a real debate.


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RE: More Propaganda? - 8/14/2006 1:29:04 PM   
Kedikat


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In a way the AbuGhraib and such should get more airtime.
If the democracies are the champions of good. Then our transgressions are worse than those that are known as evil or repressive. We should hold ourselves to a higher standard.

If we don't criticize ourselves hard, we can easily backslide. And are less able to act to promote better behaviour by others.



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RE: More Propaganda? - 8/14/2006 2:23:00 PM   
meatcleaver


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Its important to remember that Ahmadinejad has far less political power in Iran than Bush has in the US. But as for rhetoric, Bush's axis of evil is just as provocative to the opposition as Ahmadinejad's wanting to blow Israel away.

Now I don't want to live in Iran but I'm not Iranian and neither do I want to live in Israel. Sooner or later they have to learn to live together and the less the west meddles in middle east affairs the sooner they will have to accommodate each other and face reality, they can both destroy each other or they can live together.

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RE: More Propaganda? - 8/14/2006 2:26:03 PM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

Its important to remember that Ahmadinejad has far less political power in Iran than Bush has in the US.


Excellent point MC. Who in your mind does have the power, and therefore the responsibility, for what is occurring in Iran?

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RE: More Propaganda? - 8/14/2006 2:35:20 PM   
caitlyn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
Excellent point MC. Who in your mind does have the power, and therefore the responsibility, for what is occurring in Iran?


Who knows ... but what do you want to bet that eventually the blame will fall on former President Clinton, or President Bush.  

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RE: More Propaganda? - 8/14/2006 2:37:04 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

Its important to remember that Ahmadinejad has far less political power in Iran than Bush has in the US.


Excellent point MC. Who in your mind does have the power, and therefore the responsibility, for what is occurring in Iran?


The theocracy. I think it is called the Leadership Council. It vets all the positions in government. They have been trying to quieten Ahmadinejad down and if it wasn't seen as a sign of weakness, he probably would have been gone by now. It is in Ahmadinejad personal interest to keep calling for the anihilation of Israel and to have Bush respond with his normal ill thoughtout wisdoms. It keeps Ahmadinejad in power.

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RE: More Propaganda? - 8/14/2006 3:02:44 PM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

The theocracy.


EXACTLY!

Which is why Iran makes a great example of how the world would be run under Islamic rule. What is happening there should be used as a reference.

Before comparing it to any other religion or any other country, first you must show current relativity. In the Dark Ages, the Catholics may have been guilty of the same, if not worse atrocities, but we are living and have to deal with CURRENT events. There is no current correlation. I know of no other religion or country where examples similar to what I cite are occurring in the name of a country or religion. No other religion except Islam, unless communism qualifies, calls for the eradication by death or conversion of all others not Muslim, in dogma, in speech, or in it's followers.

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RE: More Propaganda? - 8/14/2006 3:49:17 PM   
meatcleaver


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Religion comes before country in Islam, it was the same in the west before the reformation. It is a similar evangelical religion as Christianity which is why Christianity has a problem with Islam and vice versa. The problem between Islam and Israel however, is not religion but what Islam sees as an imposition of a western client state in its midst to divide and rule the Islamic world. The more the US is seen as being behind Israel the more Islam has a problem with Israel, though Israel doesn't do itself any favours because Islam, rightly or wrongly, sees the Israelis as seeing themselves as racially superior and treating Arabs as racially inferior. The only way to create peace from what I can see, is for Israel to reinvent itself as a middle eastern country that it is and stop being a client of the west or more accurately the US, which Islam sees as an evangelical Christian nation and in direct theological and ideological competition with it. It is because Europe is more secular than the US that it has less problem with the majority of Islam. Much of Islam wants to modernise, Turkey and Morroco wanting to become secular nations of the EU.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 8/14/2006 3:52:23 PM >

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RE: More Propaganda? - 8/14/2006 4:16:43 PM   
Mercnbeth


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MC,
I can't disagree with any part of your statement. You've made a logical argument for Israel being the ultimate cause of no peace in the region. Any confidence that there is any peaceful way for Israel to dissolve? I can't either! But maybe your reference to Turkey holds a practical solution.

Having recently been to Turkey I can speak first hand that they are striving for modernization. When I was there they were trying to qualify to be a part of the EU. I'm sure that's changed in the months that have passed, but it still takes 1 Million Turkish lira to get to 1 EU.

What makes Turkey unique among Islamic countries is the "Treaty of Lausanne". This founding 1922 document did, among other things, reaffirmed the equality of Muslim and non-Muslim Turkish nationals. I believe a similar treaty initiated by Israel and it's neighboring countries would go a long way in a lasting peace.

I have doubts that it's possible to use the Turkish example because a theocracy was never in place in Turkey. It has been in place in Iran since the Shah was deposed and I don't foresee a circumstance where that situation will change and the religious Mullah's will relinquish their power. I'll still hold to the Islamic distinction of a published dogma to kill or convert, but historically speaking it is no different than the Spanish Conquistadors, or the Christian Crusaders. But we live now and in 2006, only Islam acts upon that dogma.

Organized religion never brought peaceful co-existence to any region. The same could be said regarding US aid, be it military or 'humanitarian'. Would anyone else subscribe to the "logical solution" of eliminating both US aid and religion?

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RE: More Propaganda? - 8/14/2006 4:26:12 PM   
meatcleaver


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I wish I could come up with a complete solution Merc but all parties have to stop letting their extremists (and Israel has its share) of derailing every peace plan that comes along. It can be taken as a given that if peace is on the table the extremists will try to scuttle it and it only takes a couple because the extremists on both sides feed off each other. Without Arab terrorism, the Zionists would have to give up their plans for a greater Israel so Zionism requires Arab terrorism and provokes it for its own ends, which is why I believe the Bush administration is only feeding extremism by indulging Israel, instead it should be pushing israel to make peace with the moderates and accept that there will be terrorist on both sides wanting and fighting for derailment. 

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RE: More Propaganda? - 8/14/2006 4:43:42 PM   
UdderlyCharmed


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
It is because Europe is more secular than the US that it has less problem with the majority of Islam.

Not only that, Europe is also much more neutral on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.  The US supports Israel, and will not publically at least, criticize them, no matter what they do.

The US cooperates extensively with Israel militarily, providing them with advanced weaponry.  Israel, however, has a long record of reverse engineering the American inventions, and then selling the copied weapons to anyone and everyone that will give them money (e.g., China, Iran), regardless of how the buyers relate to the US.  If that were any other country, illicitly selling classified US military hardware (as many copies as they can) to our enemies, what do you think would happen to them?  Great ally, those Israelis, eh?

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RE: More Propaganda? - 8/14/2006 4:47:18 PM   
meatcleaver


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Yep. The US's uncritical support of Israel is a total bafflement. They do give them carte blanche, even when Israel acts against US interests.

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RE: More Propaganda? - 8/14/2006 5:01:19 PM   
Rule


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The U.S.A. has always supported Israel, and zionism before that, because zionism and afterwards Israel destabilizes the Near and Middle East and the islamic countries. It is divide and conquer: Macchiavelli's recipe.

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RE: More Propaganda? - 8/14/2006 5:25:03 PM   
Chaingang


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I don't find U.S. support for Israeli or Christian right-wing nonsense very reassuring, so pardon me if I assert that we have plenty of home-grown religious fanatics right here in the good old US of A - sufficient so that we don't have to go worrying or wondering about the ones in Iran.

My "favorite" religious fanatics are those with large and sycophantic followings where it is clear that the leader of the faith himself has no actual faith in the lies he tells.

What if they had a war and everyone stayed home?

::yawn::

_____________________________

"Everything flows, nothing stands still." (Πάντα ῥεῖ καὶ οὐδὲν μένει) - Heraclitus

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RE: More Propaganda? - 8/15/2006 3:33:05 AM   
LadyEllen


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Its true that in Europe we are baffled by US support for Israeli abuses, but we are also baffled by the pervading christian atmosphere of the US too. Yes, I realise its a big country and far from uniform, but the impression remains of the US being somewhere that if I were there on a Sunday I'd be the only one not in church! Likely the result of the skewed image we get from US TV programmes we get here, as well as the tendency for our media to focus on the religious right in the US as something of a freak show (no offence intended) as in "look at the funny Americans!".

Personally I dont get why, in the presence of centuries of democracy and laws, we should need to base social or foreign policy on a book that says that slavery is OK and that one should make war on neighbouring countries and take more slaves. But then I'm not of the religious right I guess, and therefore have a poor basis from which to speak given that I'm possessed by the devil or else an ignorant heathen.

What concerns me as a Brit, is that Blair seems to want to import the same stance to the UK, regardless of public protest against it and its workings (a war in Iraq for example), and is endorsing an axis of evil which doesnt really seem to exist as it is being sold to us. Maybe I need to read my bible some more (yes, I do have one) in order to understand why and how the fascist regime of Saddam was connected directly to opium producing Islamist zealots in Afghanistan?

It seems to me that whilst our leaders are claiming this is not a war on Islam, they are yet doing things which would suggest that it is. The support for Israel against legitimate Arab rights is one factor, but then by marching with the flag of Jesus against the few they claim to be pursuing, they are whipping up more fear and anger in all Muslims, and I cant help but think there are agenda items they wish to fulfil this way;
1) to force all Muslims to fight back - providing an easily identifiable enemy to justify an ongoing war
2) to force all of us to unite behind the flag of Jesus (or risk being a traitor)- and so accept any and all biblical crap they feel is best for us at home; if you're not with us, youre against us etc
3) so producing the eternal war of Orwell's 1984, as a means of keeping us all in line with (fundy) government policy

Or maybe I think too much?

I dont feel this conflict is anything to do with Christianity or Islam particularly either- they are just convenient to the purposes of our glorious leaders.

E

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RE: More Propaganda? - 8/15/2006 3:59:18 AM   
Chaingang


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen
I dont feel this conflict is anything to do with Christianity or Islam particularly either- they are just convenient to the purposes of our glorious leaders.


It's a pretty convenient excuse for some of the members of this forum too!

In truth, problems do not arise in a vacuum. When there is a problem between peoples, there is as a rule responsibility for the problem on both sides. The U.S. *MUST* accept responsibility for it's share of the problem before it goes to the international community looking for sympathy and support - it's not going to happen otherwise.

We cannot pretend that any acts of retaliatory terrorism against the U.S. are based on U.S. activities that are:
a) in the past
b) things we cannot prevent
c) policies we must continue
We must accept responsibility in the here and now, prevent further occurrence even by mishap, and absolutely stop these dangerous policies moving forward.

Want to stop terrorism? Stop doing the things that make people hate you.

Want terrorism? Keep doing the things that make people hate you.

How hard is this to figure out in terms of foreign policies? We can't keep acting like the U.S. is blameless for inciting the hatred of people all over the world. It has been scandal after scandal. That's not how to make friends in the world.

My challenge to people is this: stop thinking about the middle-east as important. It isn't. Except to some elite interests, it's a fucking wasteland. Unless you want or absolutely require the oil who gives a fuck about that place? Don't claim that the oil is valuable until you accept that almost nothing has been done to properly invest in the R&D of alternative fuel sources. We aren't in danger as a nation, we simply have to stop sucking from the teat of one type of energy solution when we should have several robust alternatives instead. You know, at the heart of this is the very real monopolistic interest played by oil and its owners in our society.


_____________________________

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RE: More Propaganda? - 8/15/2006 4:02:39 AM   
NorthernGent


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I agree with those making the point that this has very little to do with religion. Maybe some Americans support their Government because they see Christianity and Islam as unable to exist side by side but in terms of those who wield power the motives are purely economic. For example, in 1953 Iran attempted to install a democracy and the US Government had a large part in overthrowing this democracy as they weren't considered to be on-side. Today, the US Government has a strong relationship with the Saudis who are as fundamentalist a regime as you can find. Thus, progressive nation building aimed at moving away from fundamentalism does not concern the US Government.

The one common denominator of US foreign policy in the Middle East is that when any one nation has appeared to be strengthening the US Government has prevented it and made it a strategic objective to divide and conquer the Middle East to maintain a grip on the oil in the region.

Also, it is not helpful to paint today's Iran as typical of Islam because it is not - as anyone who has been to the Middle East will testify. Thus, an argument based on this logic is completely flawed. 

Regards

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