RE: Agony (Full Version)

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caitlyn -> RE: Agony (8/14/2006 9:05:25 PM)

I've outgrown my need to search it out, but agony can bring out inner strength, make you hard, and can make you driven ... raw emotions with a primal sort of beauty.
 
There are times when it feels like my comfort zone ... like an old friend.




nefertari -> RE: Agony (8/14/2006 10:12:13 PM)

Much of my life I was numb.  Unable or maybe unwilling to feel happiness, joy, or sadness.  I've since felt all of those and much worse.  Agony. Agony when my 11 year old son was suicidal  Agony...at other times.   This may sound lame or cheesy, but for me just being able to feel these things, anything, is beautiful.  It becomes part of me to make me who I am.  The strength it takes to endure it, and the first few sparks of joy, happiness when you have.  Those stay with you.

I know...lame.  But it's how it works for me.  What can I say.  I'm a Cancer.  We feel it ALL (and sometimes all in the same day).  [sm=biggrin.gif]

Now, that being said, I don't seek out sad movies to experience agony.  I sometimes seek out those sad movies because I need to cry and I never cry on my own.  I need that release.  I'll start out crying about the movie, but that's never why I'm crying at the end.  But I always feel better. 




Emperor1956 -> RE: Agony (8/14/2006 10:43:24 PM)

I find no beauty in "agony".  Cynically, julia, perhaps we revel in the sad movie, the tragic tale and the sad song because it ISN'T US.  Someone else's lover is dying, someone else's father is riddled with cancer, someone else's child is shot on the sidewalk...it is schadenfreude taken to the extreme.

In contrast, ownedgirlie's story of her father's death is not one of agony, but one of love and redemption through shared celebration of a life (sigh..I almost sound Xian....ah well, strange bedfellows).  Your echo of her post, talking about beauty in grief, is in fact not to Me at all accurate -- the beauty is in the joy her family could take while recognizing his life and celebrating it.  That IS beauty, but it comes not from the dark of pain, but the light of love and celebration.  When her family holds hands and sings their father's/husband's/friend's favorite song, they hold the agony at bay, they do not glorify it at all, and maybe, just maybe, they keep it out of the dark night corners of the minds of those who live on...for a while.

Now I'm not that cynical, but I am grieving for two very different men who were deeply important to Me, and neither of them died a "good" or noble death.  My brother died just under two years ago of an uncontrolled gastric bleed.  He just fell down one day and bled to death, in the finest hospital in Chicago with 20 million dollars and 30 doctors basically standing there.   He just bled out.  He was 46, deeply in love with a wonderful man who held him in the hospital bed while his life slipped away.  I'm not bitter about how he died (I realize it may seem that way) but the agony of my mother losing her youngest son and of my daughter losing her uncle has nothing lovely or nice about it.

My friend Robert was murdered 12 days ago.  He was 32, married for just 3 years to my best friend, both of whom had started wonderful new careers within the past 2 months.  He was knifed in his sleep while staying at a friend's house in Embassy Row in Washington DC.  No signs of forced entry, no signs of violence except the stabbing, and right now no one knows what happened. 

Both of these deaths have caused my family and me agony, julia, and let me tell you, a bad death of a young man with everything to live for is a raw, ugly, cruel and nasty agony, with nothing floral or lovely about it.  With all respect to you and Sinergy, there is nothing "good" about agony.  We face it as part of our condition, and we try to piece something together.  But I won't let the Demon have a moment of peace by saying "well, some good comes of it".

E.




juliaoceania -> RE: Agony (8/14/2006 10:43:40 PM)

Thank you for sharing that Caitlyn, yes it makes you strong, just like overcoming a virus makes you immune to that virus.

Nefertari, I found what you said touching and not lame at all, because I understand the numbness and being stuck in that "not feeling" place... it is much better to feel anything than nothing after awhile..




Aileen68 -> RE: Agony (8/15/2006 5:22:28 AM)

TMI on what I just posted. 
This thread is too emotional for me. 




Emperor1956 -> RE: Agony (8/15/2006 6:37:27 AM)

I'm sorry if this topic causes you pain, Aileen.  I find that posts made in the dark wee hours (I think yours was about 3am?) are sometimes the hardest.  Be well, miss.  People do care.

E.




philosophy -> RE: Agony (8/15/2006 6:59:05 AM)

"I cannot imagine the agony of loosing a child, nor do I ever want too."

....sadly i know this too well as both of my kids died within a few days of being born. There is no beauty in that sort of suffering. However, when i last had tooth ache i was in agony....the sort of pain that phases out your sense of hearing. Once the tooth had been removed there was the most enormous burst of endorphin......that was beautiful, in a way.
We run the risk of making suffering a desireable state when we talk of the beauty of agony.........and i'm not sure if a desire for suffering like that is at all healthy.
Cartharsis is a different matter though, but it ought to be noted that in the original sense cartharsis was gained by watching others (at least in plays) suffer.....absolutely not through our own suffering.




juliaoceania -> RE: Agony (8/15/2006 7:58:31 AM)

Fast Reply,

It was not my intention to hurt or cause any sort of pain with this thread, Aileen, Im sorry if it did. Emperor, I did not mean to suggest there was anything good about losing one's loved one. I have lost several people in my life, it was just the losses that I spoke of that caused my PTSD. And philosophy, I am not depressed because I found the strength to actually feel the things I needed to feel. I was depressed before I faced those dark places. I walked around terrified of losing my son, I love him more than anyone in the world, and sacrifice myself to see him live... I am sorrry for your loss.

I can say that this thread was not about the specifics of the grief I felt, or it would have quite a different complexion. It was not about the night my father died, it was not about the devastation I saw on my mother's face while I watched her attack the doctor that told her that her love was gone, it was not about the fact that the only reason my father died was because his heart was so swollen because they worked on it for 13 hours and they could not closeup his chest cavity. It was not about the fact they told us 10 minutes before he died that he was going to make it. It was not about the freshness of agony, or all agonies, or finding beauty in every pain.

It was about being able to let go of it, and the only way to do that is to feel it. In my opinion it did not show how much I loved my father that I carried around guilt and pain for 23 years, and it did not honor him. He would not have wanted me to stay there for one day longer than I did. We look at the world in such a black and white linear way. It is neither good or bad, Dominant or submissive, cold or hot.. it cannot be something inbetween? There is beauty to all of life, even to the ugly or the mundane. In war people do truly wonderful awe-inspiring feats of humanity. In disasters people put themselves in harm's way for complete strangers.  These things cannot happen without agony, they are part of the human experience.

I had trouble watching sad movies for a long time, and the same for sad songs, I had trouble crying. I had trouble loving anyone but my son. I am so free now, and it would not have happened without agony, and embracing it. My Dom made me watch a movie that made me cry my eyes out and use every tissue at his place "Life is a House", it was beautiful, and I found joy in the ability to see myself in the characters and to cry. But I had to cry for my real losses first. I was told not to cry when my father died because it might upset my mother. This caused 23 years of being frozen inside, anxiety, and phobias... that is 23 years of suppressed agony, perhaps letting it go wasn't so hard after all.

Again, I had no idea that this thread would cause people to feel badly and defensive, and that was not my intention whatsoever.




Aileen68 -> RE: Agony (8/15/2006 8:13:51 AM)

Julia...
I think the fact that you are able to take something so negative and use it as a positive force is great.  It didn't work that way for me.  It only served to try to destroy me when I focused on all of that agony.  I was never able to see any good in it.  For me, to heal I needed to only focus on positive things.  It wasn't necessary for me to confront the bad in order to move on.  I find it healthy to become somewhat sad when I think back to these events in my life.  It means that I am healed and it hasn't consumed me.   I'm not in denial or unrealistic.  Do I get sad at times?  Yes.  Does it consume me and alter my days anymore?  No. 




LaTigresse -> RE: Agony (8/15/2006 8:15:51 AM)

Oh julia, I don't think anyone would ever think that you would intentionally cause hurt. I know I certainly did not take it that way and I do understand the point you are trying to make. I have read most of the books written by Deepak Chopra and Eckhart Tolle, in addition to Carlos Castaneda and many others who's names I cannot think of. Their teaching are all about "being in the now" embracing the beauty of the moment and what it has to teach you. We are all products of all of our past experiences, how they have shaped who we are now. Embracing all of them, the pleasant and not so much so, then letting them go and have no power over us in the present is the key.
I think, like in any population or group of people, you will have a spectrum of current life situations. In addition to different past sufferings and different stages of dealing with those sufferings. You bring up death, we all have a different perspective on death based on our exposures to it and our spiritual beliefs. For some death is much more taboo than others of us because of those perspectives.
I think that you created a magnificently thought provoking thread. Each person that read it and contributed to it took or gave what they needed to based on their personal points of view. That is something that you have no control over and so should not feel guilt at creating. They say that others are simply a mirror for ourselves. I have noticed that many of the qualities that annoy me most in others are things that I need to examine in myself. That is why they were glaringly obvious in the other person, I did not like them in myself though of course did not want to see it.
Do not be too hard on yourself but in fact the opposite really, you gave each of us a chance to examine something in ourself a bit more.




maybemaybenot -> RE: Agony (8/15/2006 8:44:04 AM)

Julia:

For me this is a great thread. I sent you an e mail on the other side. I never thought that you posted it to invoke pain or have people re live painful experiences.
A very thought provoking thread and one that, for me at least, has given me something to chew on for a few days.

                               mbmbn




juliaoceania -> RE: Agony (8/15/2006 8:50:55 AM)

Thanks MBMN and LaTigresse and Aileen.. I was starting to feel bad about it.




MistressLorelei -> RE: Agony (8/15/2006 9:01:11 AM)

I have lost someone close to me in a tragic accident.  I also had to end a 10 year relationship with the father of my child...  both were very hard things to deal with, and agony could define both situations.

I cannot imagine how I would have gotten through these times without crying or expressing my sadness and vulnerability.  I don't think I see beauty in the agony, but I did emerge from these situations with a different view on life, and I am sure I am stronger because of them.

If I were to lose the person who is closest to me (my child), there would be nothing strong, nothing beautiful....  I'm  quite certain I would lose the ability to see beauty in anything.

Adited to add:  Every situation is different, and Julia, in your situation, I can see how releasing your pain after all of those years, would be a beautiful thing.




Emperor1956 -> RE: Agony (8/15/2006 9:52:41 AM)

julia, I never thought you intended to cause anyone pain (or further pain); that would be totally inconsistent with the woman you show you are in your writings. 

E




Kree -> RE: Agony (8/15/2006 12:45:21 PM)

I dont feel a need to embrace agony to walk past it.  Watching a relative die in intense pain caused a sense of releif that his struggle was over.  I did not need to feel his pain to feel that relief.  The idea of embracing agony to "make one stronger" is like the idea of picking up a white hot horseshoe with a bare hand so you can recover from the agony of the burn. 
If we accept life for what it is and what it offers, the good and the bad, we do not really need the drama of embracing agony to find happiness.  We can accept that there is agony.  We can accept that bad things happen, even to us, but if we walk through life with the acceptance of the good and bad, we might have a better chance to avoid/survive the agonizing moments if we dont give them a credibility that they do not deserve.  Walking away from agony is simpler than rolling around in it to look for healing. Personal opinion, rolling around in agony prolongs it and extends the time needed to leave it behind.

I do not understand why anyone would look back at times filled with agony and embrace them as a way to move forward. Why not just remember the experience and forget the pain?   




NakedOnMyChain -> RE: Agony (8/15/2006 12:54:40 PM)

"If life's not beautiful without the pain, then I'd rather never ever see beauty again."
~Modest Mouse

I think there is beauty in sorrow.  Not so much in pain.  There is beauty in desperation.  Not so much in agony.  Someone dying of cancer is not a beautiful thing, but their will to survive, their strength and struggle is.  The intense pain of childbirth isn't of itself beautiful.  The new life, the way it's dealt with, the suffering gladly to bring another into the world is.  Losing a loved one isn't beautiful, but knowing how much love exists for the one who is gone, seeing that intense sorrow is.

Pain for pain's sake isn't pretty or deep.  Pain for learning and growth's sake is.  Fortunately, in most pain some beauty may be found in the people who are dealing with it and how they are dealing with it.  For most, pain is a catharsis of sorts, and is therefore beautiful.




Bearlee -> RE: Agony (8/15/2006 1:31:19 PM)

No, I find absolutely no beauty in Agony.  Agony is watching your seriously ‘handicapped’ (not so much physically) son, in his attempt to be independent, choose to walk from the program he is in and live on the streets where you know he was being pimped at age 24.
 
Agony is watching this young man, now 33, withdraw from the world and not being able to do a thing about it.  Agony is supporting his decision not to take meds, and to decide he is an adult who need not ‘check in’…and so get evicted from the program where he’s been seemingly happy for many years and go off to a life of his choosing…on the streets.
 
Agony is having no idea where he is or if he’s alive…and trying desperately to support his need for independence and privacy by not asking.
 
I understand those who talk about not feeling.  I don’t even remember my childhood and have many memories of ‘watching’ incidents in my life as if I’m watching a movie.  I understand that’s a kind of dissociation.  Not feeling is not fun. 
 
I believe the pendulum must swing both ways if you want to feel at all.  You MUST be able to feel pain to feel joy.  I ‘get’ that…but agony is beyond pain…it is worse than dark.  It is total emptiness, utter powerlessness, no reason.  I hate it, I hold it at bay, I feel it could eat me alive if I let it.  I ignore it so that I can survive it. 
 
beverly

Edited to add:

Gee…perhaps I should not have read the posts regarding confessions and then only half the posts here before writing that!  Sorry…prolly TMI.   I’m feeling melancholy…not something in which I usually indulge.  I think I'm overly stressed just now.
 
And I agree…no way could Julia have meant to cause hurt to anybody here.




juliaoceania -> RE: Agony (8/15/2006 2:00:11 PM)

It was not TMI at all. I am finding it very valuable to read insights from others, and so many see it the way you do Bearlee, it gives them voice that you posted your story. And that is a good thing!

And Emperor.... I knew you meant nothing wrong toward me...smiles.




behindmirrors -> RE: Agony (8/15/2006 2:05:45 PM)

Julia, this thread has been one of the most fascinating I have read yet, and I apprecaite you put it out here.

To me, no there is no beauty in agony itself- it's what you can channel that feeling into that is or can be beautiful. I have seen my share of agony in life, and one of the things I am most proud of was the ability to release those feelings into something beautiful. Since so many people have given such personal examples of their experiences, I give you some of the products of my agony and the most personal thing I could ever share: pages from my journal.

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n236/shesbehindmirrors/P1010091.jpg
http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n236/shesbehindmirrors/P1010052.jpg
http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n236/shesbehindmirrors/P1010037.jpg
http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n236/shesbehindmirrors/P1010027.jpg
http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n236/shesbehindmirrors/P1010083.jpg

That is the beauty I could impart from agony in my life. One day, I hope to publish my entire collection of these books, which I still keep creating in, be it good or bad experiences. I have six completed and am halfway through my seventh to this date.

behindmirrors.




juliaoceania -> RE: Agony (8/15/2006 3:04:55 PM)

The last one was especially poignant, thanks for sharing behindmirrors




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