equal rights and submission

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subsa -> equal rights and submission (8/14/2006 4:26:04 PM)
from the reading i've done on this board i can tell that there are many strong women out there who also happen to be submissive. i'm curious how you respond to people who see a contradiction between believing in womens rights and still being submissive. when i've broached the submissive subject with some of my women friends many of them seem to think that by being submissive you somehow give up your rights. in a sense i do, but only to Master, and only those rights i've agreed to give up. i still believe in things like equal pay for equal work, the right to vote, the right to my own opinion. to me, these things (equal rights and submission) are not mutually exclusive. i hope i haven't hit anybodies hot button. sorry in advance if so...i'm not trying to cause trouble only get some 'brain stimulus' going.

Bearlee -> RE: equal rights and submission (8/14/2006 4:51:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: subsa ...when i've broached the submissive subject with some of my women friends many of them seem to think that by being submissive you somehow give up your rights. in a sense i do, but only to Master, and only those rights i've agreed to give up. i still believe in things like equal pay for equal work, the right to vote, the right to my own opinion. to me, these things (equal rights and submission) are not mutually exclusive. Exactly! And...you do not 'give up' your rights to your Master...you give them to HIM. Somehow I see that as different. The power exchange is something you do with another...not the whole world. I, too, still believe in "...things like equal pay for equal work, the right to vote, the right to my own opinion." I would agree, what we are discussing is not mutually exclusive. Interesting post! beverly

juliaoceania -> RE: equal rights and submission (8/14/2006 5:03:01 PM)
There are threads in the archives that cover my position on equality in the lifestyle. I was ridiculed by many who did not understand my view. It was when I first joined that this discussion was taking place. I was even referred to as submissively inclined, I guess that was because I had the temerity to think myself the equal to all dominants in the fact I am a human being, and I think I am superior in some ways and inferior in other ways. My submission has nothing to do with my value as a human being. I think this is threatening to some dominants, so it is easier to think I am a wannabe or a bedroom submissive. I do not consider myself one, my Daddy does not think this of me, so the opinion of others does not matter. I only need one that finds me to be submissive because I am only submissive to one. In my dynamic these things are not even thought of, equality or inequality is not even a factor in our relationship. We bring out what each other is and accept each other. It is not about authority, and my Dom is not an authoritarian in his approach with me. It is a rather new dynamic, but I do not see this as an issue for us. Either we meet each other's needs or we don't. I may not want to submit all the time, but I always desire to be his submissive. It is not about authority or equality. It is power exchange. I give him something when I submit, he reflects energy back at me. Without an exchange I would lose energy and eventually have nothing to give. I also do not really understand what 24-7 means. I know that when I am in his presense and he pulls his rake out (inside joke) I immediately become deferential to him. On the phone the same thing happens. It is the way we function. It is how we are happy. Recently on the boards I was asked why I submit if I am strong and have as good of judgment as my Daddy. I answered, "Because I want to". When I mentioned this to my Daddy he asked, "What did you respond?", and when I told him, he said.. "That was the perfect response".

captiveplatypus -> RE: equal rights and submission (8/14/2006 5:24:34 PM)
This is the way I see it. If I pull my own weight, and my significant pulls his own, and our income is equal, then chores around the house should always be as equal. If he is bringing home much more than I am monetarily, or works longer hours, well then things are different. Being submissive does not mean you are a doormat, and I HATE seeing women say that men are better than women. Seriously, I want to punch their lights out, but their domineering men probably already do it for me, and the little slut takes it because she has no self worth. When I submit to a man it is because I am so smitten that I simply can't help but want to be kneeling at his feet with every free moment I have to show him how much I love him. In order to get me so smitten, that Master will have to treat me with the respect and adoration I deserve. My submission is given out of love and adoration, not because I think that I am less than him. When my heart and attention are captured so, that is when my true submissiveness comes to the surface, and I crave and want to please them in any way I am capable and that they desire. I fully understand and expect some "Masters" to tell me I'm a pretender or fake for doing so. I know ahead of time they are not worth my time or concern, as I am pretty sure what I will and will not accept as far as my treatment goes. Although I will admit to having self depricating thoughts, having bouts of depression, and low self esteem in my past (hey I'm honest!) deep down I know what I am worth, which is a lot more than a lot of so called "Men" out there.

MasterFireMaam -> RE: equal rights and submission (8/14/2006 5:30:32 PM)
Being a stong woman, a feminist and expecting certain rights doesn't mean you can't be submissive or a slave...it means you acknowledge and revel in the fact that you have the choice to live your life the way that fulfills YOU the most. YOU get to choose if you wish those rights to be equal with your partner's. The downside of this is that you MUST be strong in order to know that you are giving up your rights by your own free will, not because you are not worthy enough to have them in the first place. Master Fire

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: equal rights and submission (8/14/2006 6:22:40 PM)
There is no contradiction. There is nothing I am limited to choosing for myself based on my physical sex. Including the choice to become owned property.

mstrjx -> RE: equal rights and submission (8/14/2006 7:38:51 PM)
I apologize for such a short answer, but the others above seem to be covering the bases quite well. Said another way, equal rights is a 'societal' issue that you might believe in (or not) in the greater scheme of our collective lives. You believe in something, in this case equal rights, on the macro level. Submission, however, is a 'personal' issue. You believe in this, as it relates to you personally, on the micro level. Jeff

Dauric -> RE: equal rights and submission (8/14/2006 7:49:32 PM)
Ditto, Ditto, Ditto,..... Equal rights are all about everyone having the ability to make their own choice. A person chooses Sub/Dom/Switch or 'Nilla. Their reasons will certanly vary but no-one is going to tell you which you are. It's your right, and responsibiluity, to make that choice for yourself. $0.02, Dauric.

porcelaine -> RE: equal rights and submission (8/14/2006 11:37:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: subsa from the reading i've done on this board i can tell that there are many strong women out there who also happen to be submissive. i'm curious how you respond to people who see a contradiction between believing in womens rights and still being submissive. when i've broached the submissive subject with some of my women friends many of them seem to think that by being submissive you somehow give up your rights. in a sense i do, but only to Master, and only those rights i've agreed to give up. i still believe in things like equal pay for equal work, the right to vote, the right to my own opinion. to me, these things (equal rights and submission) are not mutually exclusive. I make no attempt to explain. That is probably why the conversations don't take place. It is merely a personal decision that reflects who I am and what I desire from my partner. When you understand that it is impossible to exist in society without a power dynamic that we all participate in through one way or another, discussions of this nature quickly fizzle. porcelaine

formenteralady -> RE: equal rights and submission (8/15/2006 12:30:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Dauric Ditto, Ditto, Ditto,..... Equal rights are all about everyone having the ability to make their own choice. A person chooses Sub/Dom/Switch or 'Nilla. Their reasons will certanly vary but no-one is going to tell you which you are. It's your right, and responsibiluity, to make that choice for yourself. $0.02, Dauric. I agree. Femanism is about the right to make choices. For it to work a woman has to have the right to make any choice, be it sex slave, or high powered corporate lawyer, and with out that right to choose the whole womens right movement really was for nothing.

classykindasassy -> RE: equal rights and submission (8/20/2006 8:25:45 PM)
My response is like this: There are people who will never understand what I do. I am one of those strong women who revels in giving over control. I don't engage in conversations with people who have fixed ideas they are married to. They will forever be "right" about how "wrong" I am in their own minds, and trying to change that is wasted energy. The first time I ever heard about BDSM was from a close girlfriend who told me about a date she had been on where she got flogged and loved it. I thought she was nuts. Until years later someone got a forcible hold of me and I got off to it completely. Then I was a believer. But no amount of discussion would have changed my mind before the experience I had. The guy did not talk to me about it. He just took a chance and went for it, and it turned out really well. I lead a high-profile life, and am very careful who I engage with on the subject of alternative sexuality. I have introduced people from my vanilla life to the scene, but only after I get some indication from their conversation that they'd be open to it. I would never allude to such with vanillas except in a joking sense.

Lashra -> RE: equal rights and submission (8/20/2006 9:41:11 PM)
Excellent post and I agree with your view. I hate hearing "Men have dominion over women" that is the biggest bunch of bullshit ever stated. We are all humans we are EQUAL. If a man or a woman chooses to be subsmissive then that is their decision, its not a given. I've heard some women say they feel ALL women are inferior to men, that it is natural. She further states that it makes her stronger. I say it makes her look like an ass, because he or someone else, has filled her head with bullshit and she was dumb enough to swallow it. ~Lashra

skinnykitten -> RE: equal rights and submission (8/20/2006 10:58:32 PM)
subsa, For me, within a rights-based discourse, the emphasis on 'consent' within a D/s dynamic is key. Most if not all would probably agree that without consent, an interaction is not D/s in nature, but abusive. The actions may be similar; the underlying reality is very different. In abusive situations, the inequality is externally imposed (by the abusive partner). The woman is not giving her rights up, they are being taken from - or denied - her. In D/s interactions, however, the inequality is self-imposed. The submissive woman is exercising her right to determine the nature of her interactions, sexual or otherwise, with a partner (self-determination). That she may then choose to voluntarily ‘give over’ her right to equality requires that she possess it in the first place. This to me negates any notion of any inherent inferiority of ‘woman’ or ‘submissive’ - however real the inequality is within the dynamic, it is still a simulation. Though I am aware that the above does not necessarily apply to those women that feel that they ‘have to’ submit to men, I might add that I take issue with those who seek to universalise their own experiences of D/s, whether they be D-types or S-types. For me to say for example that “I, as a woman feel inferior or unequal to my partner (a man) and therefore women generally are inferior and/or unequal to men” is to discount the realities of others and pathologize my own. It is also important to note that it is rarely suggested that the existence of male submissives implies an inferiority of men to women. It also is rarely argued that men are without rights, or that the male submissive should not believe in equal rights. Apologies if I haven't been clear, we have construction road work happening in the evenings here :)

Lordandmaster -> RE: equal rights and submission (8/20/2006 11:06:46 PM)
I don't really see how chores at home are determined by the partners' salaries, but I guess different households divide these things in different ways. quote: ORIGINAL: captiveplatypus This is the way I see it. If I pull my own weight, and my significant pulls his own, and our income is equal, then chores around the house should always be as equal. If he is bringing home much more than I am monetarily, or works longer hours, well then things are different.

desertdancer -> RE: equal rights and submission (8/20/2006 11:14:22 PM)
I see my submission to Master as me bending my will to form a will shared between the two of us. Yes, I know that others may see this as my will bending to his, but for me the two things are sepertate. I find harmoney and beauty with the shared will, thus I do not find that woman's rights effect my choice to serve the one I am with. Heck, I can't be bothered with things like woman's rights to be honest. My concern is pleasing Master, what other women do is their own business. Smiles

Mercnbeth -> RE: equal rights and submission (8/21/2006 5:33:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: subsa ...when i've broached the submissive subject with some of my women friends many of them seem to think that by being submissive you somehow give up your rights... voting, the right to bear arms, equal pay?...legal rights that you'd have to claim (or someone else would have to prove) you were crazy or commit crimes for those rights to be taken away don't magically disappear simply by "being" submissive... neither does having an opinion, an idea, a hope or a dream, however, depending on your definition of submissive, it might change the method, tone and frequency of your delivery.

onestandingstill -> RE: equal rights and submission (8/21/2006 7:07:00 AM)
This is something that precariously balances right on the edge for me. A Dom can make a strong minded sub shine like the sun in her submission to him. Done wrong or too overbearing it can crush her to the core. The balance of being one who's priority is to put themselves second & fully submit to another's will while still feeling mutual respect, rights and wants can be obtained is hard to make happen. It's like I want and need to be lead, but not pulled down a road I don't belong on. A hard thing to find indeed. Suzanne

windy135 -> RE: equal rights and submission (8/21/2006 9:48:22 AM)
I agree. You can be submissive and still be a strong woman. I have also been told I'm not submissive. I don't know? I'm just me. Maybe because of my beliefs I am a player or bedroom submissive but I'm just me. I like who I am and I have respect for everyone in this lifestyle no matter their "tittle".

nefertari -> RE: equal rights and submission (8/21/2006 11:06:17 AM)
Equal Rights has given women the choice to be submissive. Too many so-called feminists insist that any woman that stay at home and take care of the home and the children are not feminists. When in reality those stay-at-home women are excercising their right to choose between career and family. Those rights earned through the movement should not limit us, but should expand our horizons.

behindmirrors -> RE: equal rights and submission (8/21/2006 11:54:30 AM)
If you asked my vanilla friends if they believed I was dominant or submissive, they would tell you I was dominant. I am a self-made, self-employed, run-around-as-though-I-am-in-charge woman in my work and life outside our relationship. I seemingly will bend to no one. We see it not as a matter of inequality to be a female submissive to a male dominant, but see it as complimentary equals. I have my own ground to stand on, and I am treated with respect by my Dom, as I treat him with respect. I made the choice to become his submissive. It gives me a sense of peace I can hardly describe. With that said, I believe part of women's rights, in theory, is the ability to choose what you want from life and from your sex life. If I have made the choice to submit to another, that is no less empowering or a weaker choice than choosing to take control. It is just different. I would not want to give up my rights in society that I have as a woman because I am submissive to another. I like to vote, I like to have equal pay. These things are fair, as I am no weaker in those pursuits nor many others than a man. Just because I have made the clear choice to submit to a particular man does not mean I see myself as submissive to all men, nor will I. There are things on an individual basis each person may do better than a person of the opposite sex at, and no amount of what you do in your personal life changes that. My opinion, anyway. behindmirrors.

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