"More Propaganda Than Plot"

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Chaingang -> "More Propaganda Than Plot" (8/18/2006 12:22:42 PM)
"More Propaganda Than Plot" - Former British Ambassador on Alleged UK Terror Plot http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/08/18/1352248 A judge in Britain has ruled police have until next week to continue to hold 23 suspects arrested in the alleged plot to blow up airplanes bound for the United States. British police arrested 24 people in raids last week. One person has since been released. No one has been charged with a crime. Questions have been raised over whether British authorities were pressured by the United States to make the arrests. A senior British official told NBC News that British police were planning to continue to run surveillance for at least another week to try to obtain more evidence. The British official suggested the attack was not imminent, saying the suspects had not yet purchased any airline tickets. Some did not even have passports. Now, a former British ambassador is suggesting that the timing of the arrests has been deeply political and should be viewed with skepticism. ----------- I wouldn't want to jump to conclusions here because I am simply not in a position to know better, BUT it does look like the rush to arrest these folks has left the crown with a case that has an evidentiary deficit. Much ado about nothing...

mnottertail -> RE: "More Propaganda Than Plot" (8/18/2006 12:24:24 PM)
Possibly why he is former, old boy. Pip, pip, cheerio! Ron

meatcleaver -> RE: "More Propaganda Than Plot" (8/18/2006 12:27:51 PM)
According to reports the police have found a case with everything to make a home made device buried in woodland and several suicide videos of some of the suspects that planned to blow up the planes. We'' see over the next few days how true this is.

Chaingang -> RE: "More Propaganda Than Plot" (8/18/2006 12:35:01 PM)
After a year of planning, no tickets? Some of them no passports? Seriously, how long can it possibly take to plan this kind of thing? Some friends of mine have been talking about selling their house for over a year. When I asked if they were actually going to sell they admitted there was overwhelming inertia on the matter, that it was all talk. That's how people are: they talk shit.

mnottertail -> RE: "More Propaganda Than Plot" (8/18/2006 12:39:03 PM)
Even tho you are a decade younger than me, Chain; we never had this terroristic threat asswipe to contend with, kids who talk shit nowadays can find themselves a berth at the crowbar hotel. Freedom of speech is slowly being undone. Ron

meatcleaver -> RE: "More Propaganda Than Plot" (8/18/2006 12:39:44 PM)
The police keep getting an extension on holding the suspects so they must have produced enough evidence to the court to suggest further investigations are needed. http://www.guardian.co.uk/terrorism/story/0,,1852892,00.html http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/5265182.stm I'm not one for clambering on the terrorist frenzy bandwagon but there does seem to be some substance that these people were up to no good. Time will tell.

NorthernGent -> RE: "More Propaganda Than Plot" (8/18/2006 2:14:02 PM)
Chaingang, I'm on the fence with this one as I can't believe even our Establishment could be so stupid to be pressured into an act that is basically putting their necks on the line. However, if there is no plot and no evidence they will engineer something because they really can't afford to be wrong on this one. They have recently shot two innocent men (killed one) and with the disruption this one caused they would lose any credibility they have left. Expect to hear all sorts of "we now have a suitcase full of this, that and the other" - how much truth there is in it we'll probably never know. Regards

NorthernGent -> RE: "More Propaganda Than Plot" (8/18/2006 2:23:01 PM)
I'm not one for clambering on the terrorist frenzy bandwagon but there does seem to be some substance that these people were up to no good. Time will tell. Innocent until proven guilty - the bedrock of any civilised society. Regards

popeye1250 -> RE: "More Propaganda Than Plot" (8/18/2006 3:10:40 PM)
Well, the Police certainly have "Conspiracy."

meatcleaver -> RE: "More Propaganda Than Plot" (8/18/2006 4:15:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent I'm not one for clambering on the terrorist frenzy bandwagon but there does seem to be some substance that these people were up to no good. Time will tell. Innocent until proven guilty - the bedrock of any civilised society. Regards You mean there should be no arrests until the actual crime has been committed?

Chaingang -> RE: "More Propaganda Than Plot" (8/18/2006 5:21:38 PM)
The reason tickets and passports are important here is that they create positive acts in furtherance of the intended crime as these men have allegedly conspired to carry out. Even talking shit is doubtless an actual crime in this category and under the current climate of fear - but if all it is IS JUST TALK then it might not hold up in court. People usually need a little more than talking shit to support a conviction. And hey, I still think it's propaganda to suit the U.S. agenda of whipping up fear in its populace, but I will be generous enough to suggest that maybe they simply jumped the gun on this one. I realize that after a year of surveillance its hard to imagine they wouldn't already have the goods on these guys, but maybe they just don't.

meatcleaver -> RE: "More Propaganda Than Plot" (8/18/2006 5:27:24 PM)
The fact that police found bomb making equipment due to the investigation makes this a little more than fanciful scare mongering by the authorities but then it could be a police plant. There comes a point when you either believe the evidence or you decide it is just a conspiracy by the authorities and there is nothing to argue about after that, you will simply believe or you won't.

Chaingang -> RE: "More Propaganda Than Plot" (8/18/2006 6:11:51 PM)
Oh, I'm not disputing those things really. I'm just saying the information being released remains quite sketchy.

NorthernGent -> RE: "More Propaganda Than Plot" (8/19/2006 3:59:38 AM)
No, I don't mean their should be no arrests until the crime is committed. If there is sound evidence then yes arrests should be made prior to a crime. What I said and meant was/is I am getting more than slighlty pissed off with the media and others stating "these people were up to no good" when they have not even been anywhere near a courtroom yet. Until proven guilty they are innocent and the refusal to afford them this status is indicative of why we're in this mess. And, you have to put this one in its context. I'm not one for conspiracy theories but on this one they can't afford to be wrong so I doubt we will ever know the truth. Regards

NorthernGent -> RE: "More Propaganda Than Plot" (8/19/2006 4:06:47 AM)
Chaingang, Well, the reality is they're still scrambling around in the woods looking for anything so this suggests they don't have anywhere near the evidence required. In terms of US propaganda - absolutely 100% was this used to further the climate of fear. Within 1 hour we had US spokesmen on our screens telling us this was the work of the "Islamo-Fascists". Regards

NorthernGent -> RE: "More Propaganda Than Plot" (8/20/2006 4:44:59 AM)
According to the police the alleged plot involved the use of TATP which was to be made up from liquids. Forensic experts are saying that if this was the case the liquids would have to be mixed on the plane to attain the crystalised TATP explosive and this would be very difficult - particularly if carried out in a passenger toilet. The liquids have to kept at freezing point when they are mixed and the TATP crystals must be dried before being ignited, a process which could take several hours. Granted it is possible that this may not have been the chosen method but it's clear that holes are appearing in the security services version of the alleged plot. Regards

philosophy -> RE: "More Propaganda Than Plot" (8/20/2006 4:54:39 AM)
"Well, the Police certainly have "Conspiracy." " ....as far as i'm aware there is no offence of simple conspiracy.............freedom of assembly and all that.........we have to prove conspiracy to do something illegal.........Moslems organising stuff between themselves is not an offence per se.

meatcleaver -> RE: "More Propaganda Than Plot" (8/20/2006 5:58:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent According to the police the alleged plot involved the use of TATP which was to be made up from liquids. Forensic experts are saying that if this was the case the liquids would have to be mixed on the plane to attain the crystalised TATP explosive and this would be very difficult - particularly if carried out in a passenger toilet. The liquids have to kept at freezing point when they are mixed and the TATP crystals must be dried before being ignited, a process which could take several hours. Granted it is possible that this may not have been the chosen method but it's clear that holes are appearing in the security services version of the alleged plot. Regards Actually there was a demonstration on Dutch TV where a very small amount of liquid explosive (about 100mls I think) could be shown to blow a hole in 1/4 mild steel. As for conspiracies, 9/11, Madrid and London did happen and two bombs have within the last week failed to explode on German trains. The idea that the police are simply harrassing muslims without grounds is nonsense. If the terrorists get through and commit an attrocity I'm sure you will be the first one to complain about police failings.

NorthernGent -> RE: "More Propaganda Than Plot" (8/20/2006 6:10:31 AM)
Meatcleaver, You have a very strange way of targetting me and targetting me for things I don't say. Let's call a truce and be civil. 1) On your first point - fine, I'm open to ideas but you're not explaining why this contradicts the statement I put up which is from the Forensic Science Agency in Northern Ireland. Ok, so a small amount can do large damage but did they explain the conditions required to produce this small amount and did they explain if it is possible to do this on a plane, in a toilet and with a limited amount of time? 2) You make many assumptions about me including this one on police failings. I never said there has not been terrrorist attacks or there won't be in the future. I said: a) The security services can not afford to be wrong on this one. b) The security services have recent form for being wrong and accusing innocent men (and shooting them). c) The 23 alledged terrorists have not been anywhere near a courtroom yet so let's afford them the status of innocent until proven guilty. To be honest, I think the police have their work cut out for many reasons and I wouldn't want their job in a million years but regardless of opinions they have recent form for getting supposed terrorist plots wrong and that is a fact. Regards

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