RE: truth or lie? (Full Version)

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Level -> RE: truth or lie? (8/20/2006 5:14:12 AM)

I'm not arguing, and I'm not proper.



Daddy4UdderSlut -> RE: truth or lie? (8/20/2006 5:49:19 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: Daddy4UdderSlut
I just find it inconceivable that our leadership would stage such a devastating  attack on their own fellow citizens.  Inconceivable.

According to seeks it is inconceivable that evolution occurred. Aren't BIG LIES more successful than small lies? Good con artists and smart men know that.
Does anyone truly believe that those in power are stupid? They may pretend to be stupid, but that is what smart con artists do.


Big lies can work - and yes seeks [:'(].  But you can't take that to adopt a worldview that the more proposterous a story is, the more likely it is to be true.

How about some reality checks here?  I didn't even read the debunking articles, but does it make sense to you that a missile actually hit the Pentagon and that cargo planes actually hit the World Trade Center?  The airlines and the families of the travelers would need to be in on the consipracy too!

As far as Bush goes, I think he has certain talents for charming people as well as deep family connections into power.  But no, I don't think he is a brilliant con man, masquerading as stupid.  I think he is of perhaps average intelligence.  Compared to his peers, that *is* stupid.



Chaingang -> RE: truth or lie? (8/20/2006 6:08:28 AM)

Having first watched the video that is the subject of this thread, I was intrigued by the subject. Very quickly you will discover that there are many ways in which the available evidence can be read and many different conclusions will therefore be arrived at. At the same time the final report of the 911 Commission is just crap. Even the commission itself complains of being thwarted at many turns in their investigation. The person that chaired the commission, former NJ governor Thomas Kean, has since published a book entitled "Without Precedent" in which he affirms that 911 was "preventable." Kean writes that the 9/11 Commission was so frustrated with repeated misstatements by officials from The Pentagon and Federal Aviation Administration during the investigation that it considered a separate investigation into possible obstruction of justice by Pentagon and FAA officials. Given that, of how much value is the report of the commisison supposed to be? Kean's book is an admission of sorts, the report is "craptacular" at best.

Links:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Commission_on_Terrorist_Attacks_Upon_the_United_States
http://www.gpoaccess.gov/911/index.html
http://www.gpoaccess.gov/911/pdf/fullreport.pdf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Kean

-----

I have since found the following material of greater interest:

"9/11 GUILT: THE PROOF IS IN YOUR HANDS"
http://www.wtc7.net/index.html
http://www.wtc7.net/store/videos/proof/
http://www.wtc7.net/pullit.html
http://www.answers.com/topic/9-11-guilt-the-proof-is-in-your-hands

From the last link above:

-----

Hoffman asserts that the Twin Towers and Building 7 were destroyed by planned demolitions, and backs his assertions with these points:
That the official investigations were flawed by lack of resources and prevention of access to evidence.
That the official reports were fraudulent and deceptive.
That the destruction of WTC 7 exhibited features of a standard controlled demolition.
That the destruction of the Twin Towers involved more destructive force than standard demolitions.
That the symmetry and systematic top-down destruction of the Twin Towers is not consistent with any natural process.
That the thorough pulverization and shredding of the Towers, and their disappearance at the same rate as rubble falling through the air indicates demolition.

Paul indicts 5 individuals as deserving of investigation, based on a number of points, including:
That developer Larry Silverstein became leaseholder for the World Trade Center shortly before the attack and profited significantly from insurance payouts.
That Peter G. Peterson, Chairman of the CFR and Federal Reserve Bank of New York, and Chairman of the Blackstone Group, shared in insurance payouts from the destruction of WTC 7.
That profits in the oil and armaments industries surged in the years following the attack.
That the attack restored the flow of opium from Afghanistan.

-----

I know of no free source online where you can obtain the video but you can most likely try a torrent or other other P2P protocol. I have seen the film and it is dead fucking boring (I mean REALLY boring - REALLY!), but I think it does make its points well.

The jury is still out because the government is clearly still pulling some kind of cover up. Don't take my word for it, take the word of the chair of the 911 Commission. And why shouldn't that be enough?



Daddy4UdderSlut -> RE: truth or lie? (8/20/2006 6:26:49 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chaingang
At the same time the final report of the 911 Commission is just crap. Even the commission itself complains of being thwarted at many turns in their investigation. The person that chaired the commission, former NJ governor Thomas Kean, has since published a book entitled "Without Precedent" in which he affirms that 911 was "preventable." Kean writes that the 9/11 Commission was so frustrated with repeated misstatements by officials from The Pentagon and Federal Aviation Administration during the investigation that it considered a separate investigation into possible obstruction of justice by Pentagon and FAA officials. Given that, of how much value is the report of the commisison supposed to be? Kean's book is an admission of sorts, the report is "craptacular" at best.

The only thing that I believe that I saw there was a lot of people who didn't do their job well, covering their own asses to avoid responsibility.

Like Condi Rice, who was given priority information on Al Qaeda from the get-go by Counterterrorism Chief Richard Clarke as well as a strategy for dealing with them, and just put the whole Al Qaeda issue on the back-burner.  When asked point blank questions about this... she had two strategies - righteous indignantion "I can't beleive you're asking me that question!", and amnesia... Sadly, she fended off the most pointed questions without giving any good answers.

Like Bush and Cheney themselves, who refused to appear before the panel, and finally only agreed to appear together (no inconsistencies), privately, and off-the-record.  If that doesn't scream ass-covering, I don't know what does.  Does that mean they planned the 9/11 attack?  No.  But it is consistent with the story of Richard Clark and others that they didn't place any priority on Al Qaeda until after the attack, even though their own Counter-terrorism experts advised them otherwise.



Level -> RE: truth or lie? (8/20/2006 6:32:08 AM)

Bungling, yes. Conspiracy, no.
 
*sets out the tinfoil*



Rule -> RE: truth or lie? (8/20/2006 6:40:03 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Daddy4UdderSlut
Big lies can work - and yes seeks [:'(].  But you can't take that to adopt a worldview that the more proposterous a story is, the more likely it is to be true.
It should not blind one to the possibility neither.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Daddy4UdderSlut
How about some reality checks here?  I didn't even read the debunking articles, but does it make sense to you that a missile actually hit the Pentagon and that cargo planes actually hit the World Trade Center?

I did some checks. Whatever hit those buildings, whether flying blue whales or Marilyn Monroe, they were not the four planes that they were claimed to be.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Daddy4UdderSlut
The airlines and the families of the travelers would need to be in on the conspiracy too!

So? [8|] You seem upset? Did someone propose that the Earth is not the centre of the universe?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chaingang
The jury is still out because the government is clearly still pulling some kind of cover up. Don't take my word for it, take the word of the chair of the 911 Commission. And why shouldn't that be enough?

If you pulled something like that, wouldn't you move heaven and Earth for a cooperating con artist to become said chair? You trust this chair? Of course he will tell you that something funny is going on, but meanwhile he will have corrupted eighty per cent of the evidence of the conspiracy.



Daddy4UdderSlut -> RE: truth or lie? (8/20/2006 6:48:48 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule
quote:

ORIGINAL: Daddy4UdderSlut
The airlines and the families of the travelers would need to be in on the conspiracy too!

So? [8|] You seem upset? Did someone propose that the Earth is not the centre of the universe?

So, the grieving families that we saw before us on the news all the time, the ones who pushed for the 9/11 commission - they are all just actors?  Maybe I am actually just paid by Big Brother to cover up their terror attack on the WTC?  Maybe Collarme was created for that purpose too? *Music from "The Twilight Zone" plays in background*...



Chaingang -> RE: truth or lie? (8/20/2006 6:48:53 AM)

The argument presented in that video is more refined than that guys. If you don't want to dig into it, fine. But don't not view it and then claim to have an opinion on it anyway.

Sheesh...

All the video does is contend that 911 was more than probably a controlled demolition and it presents the viewer with the people with motive to do it. If there is any underlying suggestion at all it is that there is a cover-up concerned with financial dealings in the U.S. - at a very high level. I've covered this in part elsewhere:

"Darkside of the Looking Glass"
http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=475392

People might be doing more than covering their asses, they might be protecting those golden parachutes they built for themselves from stock and other financial fraud.



farglebargle -> RE: truth or lie? (8/20/2006 6:53:15 AM)

A thought to consider.

John F. Kennedy was killed in front of hundreds of witnesses, with a film made of the whole think.

We have no clue who did it, why, how many people, or anything else.

We *COULD* argue about 9/11 pretty much forever, or LEARN the real lesson.

In an emergency, don't look for instructions from authority. You're on your own. Do what needs doing.




mnottertail -> RE: truth or lie? (8/20/2006 6:56:41 AM)

Well that puts the lie to 'the WHOLE thing' don't it?  Let's be careful in our assertions and derivitave points.

Ron 

(a JFK assassination conspiracy buff)



Rule -> RE: truth or lie? (8/20/2006 7:43:04 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Daddy4UdderSlut
So, the grieving families that we saw before us on the news all the time, the ones who pushed for the 9/11 commission - they are all just actors?

I do not know to which families specifically you refer - and if I did, I would prefer for you to answer your question yourself. Why do you trust people? I have learned to trust no scientist (boy what a silly lot they are - and what stupidities are proclaimed in science articles), and most certainly not any non-scientist. You are supposed to be a scientist. So do the scientist thing: trust no one and do your own research.
 
Also, I would like to introduce you to my sister. After half an hour and half a bucket of tears spilled on command, she will have you convinced that you are the illegitimate father of her six (non-existent) children, that you in a rage of jealousy murdered her first husband and now her second husband too, and that you should pay her all you have got to prevent her from convincing the cops and the judge that you are guilty as charged too.
 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Daddy4UdderSlut
*Music from "The Twilight Zone" plays in background*...

There is no accounting for taste in music. Anyhow: enjoy. Myself, I have no knowledge about music whatsoever.



Daddy4UdderSlut -> RE: truth or lie? (8/20/2006 7:56:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule
quote:

ORIGINAL: Daddy4UdderSlut
So, the grieving families that we saw before us on the news all the time, the ones who pushed for the 9/11 commission - they are all just actors?

I do not know to which families specifically you refer

... and you claim to be well-informed?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule
I have learned to trust no scientist (boy what a silly lot they are - and what stupidities are proclaimed in science articles)

Yep, them scientists sure are stupid!  Everyone knows that...
 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule
You are supposed to be a scientist. So do the scientist thing: trust no one and do your own research. 

I actually am pretty well versed on current events.  I don't think that my not chasing down every tale about how, e.g., the Easter Bunny actually perpetrated 9/11 constitutes a lack of due diligence.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule
Also, I would like to introduce you to my sister. After half an hour and half a bucket of tears spilled on command, she will have you convinced that you are the illegitimate father of her six (non-existent) children, that you in a rage of jealousy murdered her first husband and now her second husband too, and that you should pay her all you have got to prevent her from convincing the cops and the judge that you are guilty as charged too.

So your sister is a pathological liar.  And your point about how that proves the Easter Bunny perpetrated 9/11 is?



Rule -> RE: truth or lie? (8/20/2006 8:16:22 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Daddy4UdderSlut
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule
I do not know to which families specifically you refer

... and you claim to be well-informed?

Yes, I am well-informed. However, I still do not know: to which involved families SPECIFICALLY did YOU refer to. Start naming names - but not to me - and then research them yourself.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Daddy4UdderSlut
I actually am pretty well versed on current events.  I don't think that my not chasing down every tale about how, e.g., the Easter Bunny actually perpetrated 9/11 constitutes a lack of due diligence.
You are deviating from the subject. We did not discuss a Bunny, but relatives of claimed victims. Why are you so easily fooled by some tears? Why do you shy from researching them? You brought them up, not I.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Daddy4UdderSlut
So your sister is a pathological liar.  And your point about how that proves the Easter Bunny perpetrated 9/11 is?

The point being that you cannot distinguish between a lie and a truth. The moment one of the relatives starts their mourning drama you swallow it bait, hook and line. QED



captiveplatypus -> RE: truth or lie? (8/20/2006 8:36:46 AM)

Sorry I'm about to run out the door, but did anyone go over those stocks yet?  Was that true?  Because if so, that's a pretty large red flag I would think.



amayos -> RE: truth or lie? (8/20/2006 10:24:23 AM)

What is perhaps the most interesting byproduct of the current administration has been what seems a new level of mistrust and lack of faith seated in the hearts of the people about their government...but in the end, some good comes of this.

I feel we should be galvanized to ask questions—not blindly accept what is fed to us and lash out at others for being "unpatriotic" or "nuts" when they don't step in line. The very fact these discussions openly take place speaks well of America, so I invite them to carry on.

As for truths or lies, I usually find the answers lay somewhere in between.



Level -> RE: truth or lie? (8/20/2006 10:51:59 AM)

Well said, Amayos. But there are some nuts out there *grins*.



Lordandmaster -> RE: truth or lie? (8/20/2006 10:54:14 AM)

Christ, you're up to 3,683 posts already.  You're gonna pass me by November.



Level -> RE: truth or lie? (8/20/2006 11:01:37 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Christ, you're up to 3,683 posts already.  You're gonna pass me by November.


Heh heh......[>:]........good afternoon, Lam. Believe it or not, I've slowed down a little bit. If it weren't for these political threads, I'd never pass you lol.
 



UtopianRanger -> RE: truth or lie? (8/20/2006 7:58:41 PM)

quote:

Given that, of how much value is the report of the commisison supposed to be?

It has zero value. I consider it to be the biggest whitewash in the history of this country.  

My hat goes off to those who are not afraid to step up to plate and question the ‘’state mandated truth’’ as it is delivered by someone wearing a twenty-five hundred dollar suit and fake alligator shoes.  

We’ve discussed this many times….. but what consistently bothers me the most, is the selective belief in the truth.  

Folks on both sides of the coin have identified this group of individuals as an administration packed with liars and manipulators, yet once someone questions the governments mandated accounting of 9-11, they leave arena of respectability and enter one which is filled paranoia and conspiracy – To think like that makes no sense and is totally illogical.




 - R



nefertari -> RE: truth or lie? (8/20/2006 8:11:25 PM)

*puts on her tin foil hat*

Ok, I don't think that 9/11 was a conspiracy, but I do believe that our governement had plenty of warning and chose to ignore it.  I've thought that since that fateful day.  I've never trusted Bush and never voted for him. 

I do think that the video brought up some points that should be investigated - the put options on the stock for example.  But it bothered me in that it seemed to belittle those that died that day, their survivors, and everyone in this country who watched it unfold on tv in horror by saying it didn't happen.

Geez - with this hat on I'm picking up signals from Mars.  Anyone know martian?



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