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JustaDom -> RE: First Dates... (8/20/2006 2:52:35 AM)
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I'm a dominant, not a submissive but as I haven't seen a reply from a male submissive yet I am going to try to do the best I can to answer from both viewpoints. (As a warning, this reply is pretty long because of that.) I had a rural upbringing and was taught some old fashioned manners of giving a date a small gift, generally something relevant to a conversation we had. I've found it doesn't matter so much what the gift is, what it is really saying is that I've paid attention to what she's said. In my best relationships we both continued to surprise each other with little notes and gifts to each other.
A lot of gentlemanly and ladylike behaviors have been steadily disappearing today – including obvious basics like clean clothes, wearing something flattering and ironing. Remember though, that one of the reasons why customs like men giving a little gift came about was due to restrictive gender roles. When manners like this were considered the standard, a good job for a single woman was working as a secretary or a phone operator while she was supposed to be looking for a husband. There were very few educational opportunities and educated jobs available, such as nursing or teaching. Many women were all but required to give up their independence and career for a marriage and family; she was a failure if she didn't have a husband and children. Men paid for a little gift and the date because men were supposed to have the jobs that provided the income to support a family and single women usually didn't have a lot money to spare. Part of the point of these customs helped to show that the man would make a good provider for a wife and children. They probably date back to when we lived in caves and the height of gentlemanly manners was a man offering meat from the hunt to a woman he was interested in.
A large part of why I give a little gift and pay for the date is to establish those traditional gender roles. I'm lucky to be a dominant in that regard because with a male dominant and female submissive, we both have a nice, comfortable option of expected behavior and manners. Submissive men have to either alter that, fall back even further into the chivalric woman-on-a-pedestal model or do something entirely different. Men aren't certain what to do anymore because the reasons for what we used to do have changed so much so quickly. Women in lower to upper middle class jobs earn about as much as their male counterparts and own cars. (In fact, with their lower insurance rates, it is more practical for a woman to own a car.) Women today are capable of driving to a date and paying for themselves. I'm pretty convinced that growing gender equality has erased the need for a lot of dating customs and this is the result. To a lot of men, the fact that they work beside women earning the same as them makes the expectation that they pay entirely for something that is shared seem materialistic. If they are thinking like that, they certainly are not going to add a gift on top of that. (Preemptive PC disclaimer: Ladies, I don't think you are materialistic and I'm not implying that you are for wanting a little gift from a date. I'm explaining a thought process, not making an accusation.)
I know a lot of men in my generation (I'm 29) have stopped taking women to dinner and offer to go out for coffee or drinks. Sometimes women offer to split the check on a date. Society has changed and while chivalry is not dead yet it has been put into a nursing home. I could give a mule pointers in stubbornness and even I've changed a bit. I find a first date from a personals site has a different mood because it is the first time you've met in person and there are often safety concerns, so I try to suggest a casual first meeting at a coffee house or juice bar. A more casual meeting feels safer than a formal date. If that goes well, then I'll suggest a date date and act more like a traditional gentleman.
A submissive man doesn't want to establish traditional gender roles and that leaves him without a model to follow. There used to be one answer to how men were supposed to behave on a date and now we have several. Some men don't care but for those of us that do, it is confusing. If she offers to pay for half, should we let her? We can't offer to take her home and walk her to her door if she drove in her own car, we can walk her to her car door but I've known some women who find that creepy and become suspicious because they fear being stalked. It isn't a question of what kind of gift to get a woman or where to take her, today the whole date is up in the air for a man. With a dominant woman who will likely be assuming some of the traditional male role and the submissive male assuming some of the traditionally feminine role it is even more complex for them and they have to play so much more by ear.
I think the best thing to do as a female dominant would be to clearly state what you consider appropriate. Give him some guidelines and be classy about it. I've seen some dominant women pull off being dominant and ladylike extremely well and I've noticed they were the ones who often had the most gentlemanly submissive men.
The best point I think I can make is that if you lament men no longer automatically getting your door or pushing in your chair it is because men are no longer automatically in the driver's seat. I like that my baby sister and female cousins are able to be more independent than my mother's generation and my grandmother's generation. There are a lot of good things to be said about modern society but this is one of the advances I wish did not go as far. I've taken a break from dating for awhile but now that I am looking to start dating again I'm somewhat discouraged. I'm hoping to find a girl that thinks she should wear a skirt and doesn't reach for the door handle the first time I drive her to a restaurant. I'm pretty blunt about being old fashioned and it is rare to see women my age and younger understand that is what I expect without me expressly telling them.
Ladies, I know what you mean and I've felt the same way every time I've gone out with someone when it is inappropriate for me to pick her up, she looks at the check or who is wearing pants.
Joe
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