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Discipline and Behavior Modification - 8/22/2006 9:11:49 PM   
nefertari


Posts: 425
Joined: 7/22/2006
Status: offline 		I did a search and did find several posts regarding discipline/punishment and behavior modification, but didn't find the answer to my question.

Why do (those of you that do) feel that you need discipline/punishment to correct behavior?  I'm not talking about behavior that directly affects your relationship with your Dom like lying or being a brat.  I'm directing this to those who seek a discipline/punishment relationship to modify their own behavior.

Since I'm having a hard time finding a way to explain, let me give an example:  A friend never used to wear her seatbelt although she made sure her kids were buckled up.  The threat of possibly receiving a ticket for not wearing it wasn't enough to make her wear it.  The increased risk of serious injury or death in an accident when not wearing a seatbelt was not enough.  But having someone care enough to tell her to wear it is.  And the thought of telling him that she wasn't wearing it is horrible to her and is what insures that she will wear it.  If she got a ticket for not wearing her seatbelt there would be punishment (there would be punishment even without the ticket if she didn't wear it, but with the ticket there is already a natural consequence).

I can understand more when there aren't any natural consequences to speak of.  If you didn't work out today, you lost the opportunity to burn some extra calories, but no real natural consequence. But with the seatbelt example you have the natural consequence of a ticket (and a large fine) and the risk of serious injury or death in the event of an accident.

I'm not trying to disparage anyone.  I'm really just trying to understand.  I've asked her and we've talked about it.  I realize that it's not for everyone.  I don't take issue with it.  If it works for her, great.  I guess I'm just wondering why natural consequences aren't enough for some. Why some need that extra push.

And maybe I've answered my own question with this ~smile~ but I'd still like to hear other perspectives.
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RE: Discipline and Behavior Modification - 8/22/2006 9:22:47 PM   
MasterFireMaam


Posts: 5587
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Charleston, WV
Status: offline 		Fear of punishment is a huge motivator for many people. This is why kids learn to lie in order to not get in trouble (No, I didn't break X). Fearing a loss of approval is often an even bigger deal. This is why we strive to please our parents, even when NOT faced with punishment (I must be the best at X). Maybe these two things have a factor here?

Master Fire


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(in reply to nefertari)
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RE: Discipline and Behavior Modification - 8/22/2006 9:31:15 PM   
nefertari


Posts: 425
Joined: 7/22/2006
Status: offline 		I'm sure they do have a factor.  I'm having a hard time understanding why as an adult she would still need that to correct behavior that could be potentially dangerous to her.  She has kids.  As a mother myself it is my responsibility to make sure I'm able to provide for my kids.  I can't very well do that if I'm killed in a car accident because I wasn't wearing my seatbelt.  See what I'm getting at? 

She and I have discussed it.  She knows I'm not judging her that I'm just trying to understand.  I thought maybe if I got the perspective of others that feel as she does that it might help to understand better.

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RE: Discipline and Behavior Modification - 8/22/2006 9:40:15 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		We are tangible beings who find that having tangible, directly linked consequences to things make them more real, more palatable and easier to relate to.

Do we need it?  No, or at least we shouldn't.  The most disciplined people know how to draw from their inner well and go where they need to go to keep their behavior in line (they are also the least likely to blame someone else for "starting it")

But there's nothing wrong with making a process easier as long as it truly does make things easier in the long term.  The problem is that so few people actually know how to use punishment and discipline in an effective way that they usually completely fuck up the whole system and make it a huge ordeal.  Discipline should be an integral, barely noticable part of one's life, training should be an ongoing progression of behavior, and punishment should be rare, severe, direct and easily moved on from.

I'm into the practical side of things- if knowing I will get a treat of using the sauna, pool, and hot tub after the gym keeps me motivated enough to go 4 times a week, I don't see that as a problem.  I don't go to the gym in order to GET those things, it simply helps me keep focus on what I do want.

Reward/punishment/reinforcement/training- all different aspects of what we call discipline, or controlled behavior.  If it's truly effective, then enjoy it.

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RE: Discipline and Behavior Modification - 8/22/2006 9:53:32 PM   
nefertari


Posts: 425
Joined: 7/22/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

We are tangible beings who find that having tangible, directly linked consequences to things make them more real, more palatable and easier to relate to.




I think you hit the nail on the head, LA.  I can see that with her.  The natural consequences in the example I used where just risks *if* she got caught. 

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
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RE: Discipline and Behavior Modification - 8/23/2006 12:52:20 AM   
Mavis


Posts: 828
Joined: 2/8/2004
Status: offline 		tangible is exactly it, also history.  i'm betting she knows the chances of accident or ticketing are slim if she drives responsibly.. she has more trust in her ability to avoid the natural consequences.  On the other hand, history might prove to her the Dominants consequences are far more reliable, even moreso than her own ability to avoid a wreck or ticket, so she's taking the surest road to reinforce her chosen behavior.

Might point out that even though she is looking to her Dominant to enforce it, she IS taking some active part in changing the behavior both by accepting His authority in it, and even by offering it to Him in the first place.  (if she brought it up first, not Him)  Maybe if you consider her consent or even initiating the process, you won't so much have the sense that she's abdicated responsibility to Him, which is kind of how i hear your gut feeling.

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RE: Discipline and Behavior Modification - 8/23/2006 12:52:47 AM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: nefertari

A friend never used to wear her seatbelt although she made sure her kids were buckled up.  The threat of possibly receiving a ticket for not wearing it wasn't enough to make her wear it.  The increased risk of serious injury or death in an accident when not wearing a seatbelt was not enough.  But having someone care enough to tell her to wear it is.  And the thought of telling him that she wasn't wearing it is horrible to her and is what insures that she will wear it.  If she got a ticket for not wearing her seatbelt there would be punishment (there would be punishment even without the ticket if she didn't wear it, but with the ticket there is already a natural consequence).

Sometimes someone needs a purpose.  There have been things I would not have done not do out of fear of doing it, if not for Master telling me to. These things are always for my betterment, but I would not have had the courage to do them on my own.  Those are things I do not do for "me," but do for him. Not out of fear of punishment, but simply because he wants them done.

One example of that was my trip to New York last year, to reconcile with my sister.  She invited me to come see her, after a 3 year estrangement.  I was uncertain as to whether to go, uncertain of what would happen, uncertain of going to the City for the first time and spending much of that time by myself, as she would be working much of the time I was there.  Weeks went by and I still had not decided, so he decided for me.  He told me to go, and that was the push I needed.  Had it not been for him, I would likely have stayed home and missed out on one of the best weeks of my life.

(in reply to nefertari)
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RE: Discipline and Behavior Modification - 8/23/2006 6:28:28 AM   
losttreasure


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Joined: 12/17/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: nefertari

I think you hit the nail on the head, LA.  I can see that with her.  The natural consequences in the example I used where just risks *if* she got caught. 



Perhaps, but not quite.  There is a large part of the equation that you are missing, and while I don't have the time right now to go into detail, here is the gist...

It isn't the negative consquences that bring about lasting behavior modification in these instances.  It's the positive incentive.

I doubt your friend wears her seatbelt because she is afraid to be punished by the person she cares about if she doesn't.  If it were simply the "risk" level, then anytime she is confident that that person would not find out, then she would revert to not wearing the seatbelt.

I would guess that she does so because it makes her feel good to do something that she knows it is pleasing to that person. 

I repeat... it makes her feel good.

Despite the rhetoric of "it isn't all about you", it really IS all about you... what makes you happy, what makes you feel good about yourself. 

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RE: Discipline and Behavior Modification - 8/23/2006 6:56:24 AM   
Jasmyn


Posts: 1234
Joined: 2/6/2004
From: New Zealand
Status: offline 		Losttreasure excellent response ...

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RE: Discipline and Behavior Modification - 8/23/2006 6:57:25 AM   
onestandingstill


Posts: 1335
Joined: 8/3/2006
Status: offline 		For me it comes from my own weakness and my desire to keep my word or be pleasing to another. There are just some things, though I want them, I'm just not disciplined enough to act on them for myself all the time.

If in the example of the seat belt it was me, knowing I gave my word word be something that enables me to be sure to do it every time. If not then not only am I failing myself, I fail someone who cares about me. It overall makes the stakes in the bad, neglectful or negative behavior being eradicated higher. This in the end benefits me.

It's like exercise. Most who exercise hate it, but love the results and how they feel about themselves. If they have a buddy that goes with them they're more motivated not to skip as it affects more than themselves too. This is like having a teacher, friend and coach to help you reach the goals you desire to get to, but just don't feel strongly enough to stay on task by yourself.

For me the modification process is VERY fragile dangerous work for a Dom & sub at best. It's quite a gift they give us when they are willing to step in the current and stand firm in motivating us to change the flow of things. Knowing where the sub's limit in how they are pushed is takes a lot too. I have in my own experience had this type of dynamic work wonders in some things and crush me like a grape in others.
In the right situations it can indeed enable you to accomplish things you'd never dreamed are within you to do.
Suzanne

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RE: Discipline and Behavior Modification - 8/23/2006 8:12:42 AM   
Mavis


Posts: 828
Joined: 2/8/2004
Status: offline 		losttreasure, that's a really good point about the positive motivation for being obedient, and Suzanne, your point about keeping your word is another good point.  Both good reasons! Much better than the reprisal angle.

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RE: Discipline and Behavior Modification - 8/23/2006 8:50:39 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: nefertari
...Why do (those of you that do) feel that you need discipline/punishment to correct behavior?  I'm not talking about behavior that directly affects your relationship with your Dom like lying or being a brat.  I'm directing this to those who seek a discipline/punishment relationship to modify their own behavior...


this slave is involved in a relationship that includes discipline/punishment and behavior modification, as Master deems necessary.  it is not because she sought one out to change her behavior, but because He is training this slave to be of long-term service to Him and that service is sure to include things this slave previously was either hung up about or had a negative attitude towards (former hard-limits and such).
 
for example:  in the beginning, the idea of including another female into a scene(which includes sex) seemed to this slave to be coming from a place where He would want more than this slave was able to provide sexually, or had some fetish for impossible scenarios--therefore necessitating including another, and homosexual other at that.
 
in previous vanilla life, this slave never understood why on earth any man would think that two lesbians would be interested in having sex with him as a three-some.  Mind you, this came from a misconception that two females engaging in sex would consider themselves lesbian.  this slave equated it with a female desiring to have a threesome with two gay men, which she didn't "get" either...why they would want a hetero female engaging in sex with them?  after all...they are gay, as in, not interested in women...where's the turn-on?  this slave was more than willing to undergo discipline/punishment/behavior modification exercises to change her view...actually looked forward to it, as it was a very illogical, deeply ignorant bias and this slave deeply desired to be rid of it's annoyance to her thinking and potential future problems in service to Master.
 
this slave is in her fourth year of training and no longer just accepts it as some deficit on her part, assumes some are desirous of an "impossible" sexual scenario or spends time squashing uncomfortable why-is-He-including-this-slave-in-this-when-this-is-the-ultimate-intimate-between-two-people puritanical thoughts...she now actually looks forward to pleasing Him with as many others as He wishes to include at the same time, knowing that it has absolutely nothing to do with this slave's previous thought processes and confusion regarding either her own ability to satisfy or the sexual proclivities of lesbian, gay or heterosexual orientations.

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RE: Discipline and Behavior Modification - 8/23/2006 7:20:18 PM   
nefertari


Posts: 425
Joined: 7/22/2006
Status: offline 		*fast reply*

Thank you to all who responded.  I can understand each of your viewpoints and how they relate to her.  Really helps me to understand.

Thanks!

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
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