RE: The Bomb.

RE: The Bomb. (Full Version)

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CrappyDom -> RE: The Bomb. (8/26/2006 1:49:38 PM)
quote: I don't buy the premise that Russia had imperial ambitions in the west. 1953 1956 1968 Sorry, don't buy it As for Western hypocracy, I am curius, if you had to choose one group, alliance, country, who would you choose to control nuclear weapons and be the sole possessors of them. My veiw on the US and the West is we talk a better game than we actually do, but that game is still better/nicer?freer than any others, I just expect us to act better and to push the world in a better, less selfish and more noble direction. So it isn't that I "hate" America, it is the opposite, I think that regarless of how great we are, we can always do better and should strive to do so, even when it is hard, expensive, and or difficult to do so.

meatcleaver -> RE: The Bomb. (8/26/2006 3:30:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CrappyDom quote: I don't buy the premise that Russia had imperial ambitions in the west. 1953 1956 1968 Sorry, don't buy it As for Western hypocracy, I am curius, if you had to choose one group, alliance, country, who would you choose to control nuclear weapons and be the sole possessors of them. 1953, 1956, 1968. Russia trying to keep its cordon sanitaire intact after the post war settlement and the west was happy to sit on its hands as long as Russia kept within those boundaries, after all the west did agree to them. As for who holds nuclear weapons, it is not a matter of which side I would choose because I would be the same as everytbody else and prefer 'ourside' to have them depending on which side 'ourside' was, be it Russian, China or the USA.

meatcleaver -> RE: The Bomb. (8/26/2006 3:34:38 PM)
Did I ever fear Russian nukes in the cold war? No, I feared nukes from both Russian and the USA because if there was a war both would use them on European soil and think, fuck the Europeans.

LotusSong -> RE: The Bomb. (8/26/2006 4:03:49 PM)
Nobody really "wins" a war.

WyrdRich -> RE: The Bomb. (8/26/2006 4:18:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LotusSong Nobody really "wins" a war. Horse Hockey-Pucks! Hogwash! What sort of nonsense statement is that? If you meant that wars rarely settle all issues permanently that is one thing, but your statement as it stands.... Of course wars are won. Ask the Vietnamese if there is such a thing as Victory or the Kuwaiti's if there can be Liberation. Ask the Japanese how the whole 'enslaving Asia' thing is going or try for a progress report on that 'final solution' in Germany.

meatcleaver -> RE: The Bomb. (8/26/2006 4:37:38 PM)
The 20th century was the most violent century since the 14th century in the percentage of the human population killed through conflict. We truely did go back to the middleages. There were reasons why Japan and Germany militarised and tried to gain empires. To think these countries did what they did in a vacuum is to put ones head in the sand. They were guilty as charged but their eventual enemies were not innocent either. It just depends where you decide to start your history from as to the conclusions you arrive at.

LotusSong -> RE: The Bomb. (8/26/2006 4:55:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WyrdRich quote: ORIGINAL: LotusSong Nobody really "wins" a war. Horse Hockey-Pucks! Hogwash! What sort of nonsense statement is that? If you meant that wars rarely settle all issues permanently that is one thing, but your statement as it stands.... Of course wars are won. Ask the Vietnamese if there is such a thing as Victory or the Kuwaiti's if there can be Liberation. Ask the Japanese how the whole 'enslaving Asia' thing is going or try for a progress report on that 'final solution' in Germany. If wars ever solved anything.. there would never be other wars. WWI= The War to End All Wars"...oops.. there is World War II..weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee We LIBERATED Germany and Stopped oppression!!..oops.... WWIII.. You stike me as someone who is reveling in all the testosterone washing over the world.. the My God can beat up Your God! My Daddy can lick your Daddy. We have TOYS! (weapons of mass destruction) and we always wanted to take daddy's car out and see how fast we can go! The. Repugnicans will have left the room..because they have no idea what to do now but make noise. and do thier little "Chicken Little" Dance and if you say anything otherwise than the sky is falling you are UNpatriotic.. The American people are tired of mismanagement and rhetoric. Novemember can't come soon enough. The best we can do is upset the majority and stop this jerk we call a president. BTW.. Try Googling th word "asshole"

WyrdRich -> RE: The Bomb. (8/26/2006 5:08:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LotusSong If wars ever solved anything.. there would never be other wars. This is even more ridiculous than when we started. Slavery, Tyranny, Genocide, French Colonialism. Wars deal with specific issues in specific times and places. Does the aspirin you took for a headache last week mean you'll never have another bout of diarrhea?

ScooterTrash -> RE: The Bomb. (8/26/2006 8:29:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver quote: ORIGINAL: ScooterTrash It's a bit more than just one country and yes, perhaps it seems backwards that the "one" who used it is very upfront about regulation. But as mentioned before, it was used in a hostile wartime environment, we didn't have the habit (at least then) of just attacking countries on a whim. My perception of it all is that the global opinion/regulation of who and who cannot obtain and maintain nuclear technology is highly based on past behavour. Sort of like if you are a kid and have a habit of shooting a BB gun at your sister, it's likely there won't be 12 gage shotgun under the Xmas tree with your name on it. Who has Iran invaded? Who has N Korea invaded? It appears to me that America's antipathy towards Iran and N. Korea has been for the same reason for its antipathy towards Cuba, they had a revolution or war that showed the US the door. Since 1945 the US has a history of interference in other countries so has France and Britain etc but all have nukes. America is quite happy for Israel to have nukes and is negotiating with India over nuclear technology and who has had several border wars. There is just so much hypocrisy surrounding who should have and who should not have nukes, it has little to do with who can be trusted and who can't but in whose interests it is that a country is allowed to have nukes. Just try to look from a none western view. The west's hypocrisy is breath taking. Get real MC, I know you are not that ignorant...ever noticed where most of the terrorist come from geographically, or are you really living in a hole. Perhaps you aren't convinced that if same folks who bring you suicidal car bombers would act irresponsibly with nuclear capabilities, but I am, and so are a whole lot of other people who make those type of decisions. I'm not predudice against 3rd world countries because of their politics, I'm gaging them on their current and recent behavour as a whole...and from my vantage point, it sucks. You want to trust an ax murderer to be your gardener, have a blast, but don't expect everyone else to see your logic.

LotusSong -> RE: The Bomb. (8/26/2006 8:53:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WyrdRich quote: ORIGINAL: LotusSong If wars ever solved anything.. there would never be other wars. This is even more ridiculous than when we started. Slavery, Tyranny, Genocide, French Colonialism. Wars deal with specific issues in specific times and places. Does the aspirin you took for a headache last week mean you'll never have another bout of diarrhea? I doubt it.. aspirn has never been a cure for diarrhea.

CrappyDom -> RE: The Bomb. (8/26/2006 9:59:39 PM)
Scooter, If someone shot every president we elected and or overthrew every government we created, would you get pissed and want to do something about it? Get real. Cleaver, Germany and WWII had many causes but Japan just up and went empire building in a century where that was no longer accepted. They were not backed into a corner, they were not forced into war, it was a path they chose for themselves.Why do you see it otherwise?

MrDiscipline44 -> RE: The Bomb. (8/26/2006 10:05:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Level D, what changes do you see coming? We were once a nation created by the people, for the people. From what I see, L, we've strayed far from that princple. We, as a nation,have also become, both figuritively and literally, fat and slow. We were caught dozing five years ago and we're still trying to play catch-up. No nation will survive forever and I think the U.S. maybe nearing it's end. We have a government that elects it's own leaders despite it's people, tells it's people what to think and on the whole, it's own people doesn't trust it. Basicly it comes down to either drastic reforms (wipe it all out and start over) or we will cease to exist.

mnottertail -> RE: The Bomb. (8/26/2006 10:12:51 PM)
Peace in our time came and went, the issue at hand is living with others of dirrerent and intolerable habit, and making sure we annhilate each and every one of us in the meantime . You may not invade anothers soverignty, there was a time that was not of any concern whatsoever. If, and if there is a groundswell of opinion that the government should be overthrown and the preponderance of the populous agrees and will attend to the overthrow of that government (with assistance if necessary) go and be well, but understanding you have made a friend and enemy at the outset. Oh, the hell with this. Ron

meatcleaver -> RE: The Bomb. (8/27/2006 12:04:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CrappyDom Scooter, If someone shot every president we elected and or overthrew every government we created, would you get pissed and want to do something about it? Get real. Cleaver, Germany and WWII had many causes but Japan just up and went empire building in a century where that was no longer accepted. They were not backed into a corner, they were not forced into war, it was a path they chose for themselves.Why do you see it otherwise? Japan militarised because of the west's encroachment and it didn't want to become a western colony. It set about building an empire through western example. Where Japan went wrong, they treated the people they conquered worse then the west otherwise they would have been welcomed as liberators. I think Japan got everything they had coming to them and I think the USA had every right to demand unconditional surrender. I just don't believe it was necessary to nuke cities, not without demonstrating the power of the bomb first. I don't believe Britain had the right to carpet bomb German cities either and think that was just as criminal. I think that not because I'm anti-American, if that was the case I would be anti-British too, I just don't believe in needlessly targeting civilians even if the other side does. It is the reason I was so against Israel in the recent conflict, they seemed to be aiming at innocent civilians. If there wasn't unconditional surrender after demonstrating the bomb, I would probably agree with bombing the cities but would still feel mighty uneasy about it.

mnottertail -> RE: The Bomb. (8/27/2006 12:11:08 AM)
meat, I have to give answer to this, but not tonight. Really, Ron

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