Sailing the Seas of Ideology (Full Version)

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WyrdRich -> Sailing the Seas of Ideology (8/26/2006 6:09:12 AM)

      I've heard it oversimplified this way:

      Liberals will give a man a fish.
       Conservatives will teach a man to fish.
       Socialists think the Government should control the fishing fleet and the means of distribution.
        Libertarians will put up a sign that says "this way to the ocean."
 
        Where do you fall in this spectrum?  What is really the best way to help those at the bottom of society and whose job is it anyway?



meatcleaver -> RE: Sailing the Seas of Ideology (8/26/2006 6:24:02 AM)

I believe in the sign that shows the way to the ocean and that the government's role is to make sure the ocean isn't overfished by the fishermen with the best equipement, leaving none for the fishermen using a cotton thread and a safety pin as a hook



cuddleheart50 -> RE: Sailing the Seas of Ideology (8/26/2006 6:28:57 AM)

Liberals will give a man a fish.


Thats my take on it.  [:D]



DesertRat -> RE: Sailing the Seas of Ideology (8/26/2006 6:48:26 AM)

~And now, CrappyDom's nominee for "Most Idiotic OP in the History of the Internet!!!
WOO_HOO!!! VALIDATION!!!~
 
You gotta be kidding. Sorry, man, your stuff is hardly the most idiotic in the History of the Internet. At least you're brief.

Bob



WyrdRich -> RE: Sailing the Seas of Ideology (8/26/2006 7:03:00 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesertRat

~And now, CrappyDom's nominee for "Most Idiotic OP in the History of the Internet!!!
WOO_HOO!!! VALIDATION!!!~
 
You gotta be kidding. Sorry, man, your stuff is hardly the most idiotic in the History of the Internet. At least you're brief.

Bob


     I suppose I'll pull that out of my sig line soon enough, just couldn't resist in the moment.



BrutalAntipathy -> RE: Sailing the Seas of Ideology (8/26/2006 7:09:09 AM)

I gotta go with # 4. Been a Libertarian ever since I was old enough to shoot at the tax officers.
 
And along similar lines... give a man a fire and he will be warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life!



CrappyDom -> RE: Sailing the Seas of Ideology (8/26/2006 7:22:20 AM)

When you can post concepts more complex than short simple sentences/.



WyrdRich -> RE: Sailing the Seas of Ideology (8/26/2006 7:36:14 AM)

   Hey, I said it was oversimplification. 

   We know your thoughts on Bush, Bush and "Raygun," how do we elevate the people at the bottom of the heap?



Archer -> RE: Sailing the Seas of Ideology (8/26/2006 7:47:28 AM)

I tend to be pretty libertarian in my views as well, using the small l because I'm not discussing prty but the idea. But I do see the problem with libertarianism run to it's extream end of the spectrum, without some regulation people tend to be glluttonous and the market is usually a bit too slow to react to new information.

To work outright libertarianism has to have informed consummers, and reasonably forward thimking people overall, lacking either part the need for some level of government involvement happens.

But overall I tend to default to individual freedom, so long as there is no theft by force or fraud, and the right ends at the next person's rights.

In Leather

Archer



Archer -> RE: Sailing the Seas of Ideology (8/26/2006 7:50:32 AM)

So I want two signs on each post saying <----This way to the ocean and this way to the school of fishing knowledge and eco systems----->.



popeye1250 -> RE: Sailing the Seas of Ideology (8/26/2006 8:11:21 AM)

Why use a paragraph when a sentence will do?



LotusSong -> RE: Sailing the Seas of Ideology (8/26/2006 8:23:08 AM)

I dunno.. sounds pretty fishy to me...



WyrdRich -> RE: Sailing the Seas of Ideology (8/26/2006 8:33:27 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer
To work outright libertarianism has to have informed consummers, and reasonably forward thimking people overall, lacking either part the need for some level of government involvement happens.
Archer



      Despite holding a lot of Libertarian ideals, I think any pure form is flawed in its view of human nature.  As socialism needs the populace to be happy as sheep, libertarianism holds that we can all be wolves.



Level -> RE: Sailing the Seas of Ideology (8/26/2006 10:05:58 AM)

Good thread, Rich.
 
I see value in all 4 "systems", and I see fault in all 4. I place a high premium on personal freedom and personal responsibility; I don't think wealth is "evil", nor do I think everyone deserves the exact same level of "comfort" from life or society. I do believe that capitalism has given us a number of wonderful benefits, not the least of which is an impetus for some to put a bit of effort into making themselves a decent life, a carrot and stick benefit, you could call it. But it does leave some genuinely helpless folks on the precipice, and I strongly believe a good society cares for those, and those who just need a helping hand.
 
I wonder often if we aren't overlooking something, some way to take the best of our economic/social programs and systems and ideas, and solve a number of problems.



seeksfemslave -> RE: Sailing the Seas of Ideology (8/26/2006 1:12:23 PM)

I would eat the fish.



CrappyDom -> RE: Sailing the Seas of Ideology (8/26/2006 1:30:47 PM)

Capitalism sees profit in driving off of cliffs because the path is faster and cheaper
Socialism sees profit in working together to make less and less
Libertarians see profit in pretending that nobody else exists
Liberals see profit in other peoples suffering.

What I find fascinating in these sorts of debates is sitting back and see what people take as a "given" and how they see others.

Liberals will give a man a fish.  That could be revolutionary if they didn't know they could eat fish 
 Conservatives will teach a man to fish. Useless if due to pollution or overfishing there are no fish to catch
 Socialists think the Government should control the fishing fleet and the means of distribution. bad if done incompetently but great if done well
 Libertarians will put up a sign that says "this way to the ocean" but allow someone to buy up all the access so nobody can get there

Society and even "markets" are social constructs, who would have thought 20 years ago you could sell water or "own" some else's genetic material?  Imagine if someone figured out a way to make keeping people healthy that was MORE profitable than saving them after they are dying.  Imagine if the internet was owned by someone rather than being free, who would you want to own it?

Just imagine...



MistressLorelei -> RE: Sailing the Seas of Ideology (8/26/2006 1:34:17 PM)

I would define myself as a liberal...

Willing to give a man a fish when he needs it right now, and teach him to fish when he doesn't.  Who will make sure the ocean is safe for the fish and all fisherman... not just some of them... and will make sure the laws aren't geared so a fraction of fisherman catch the majority of the fish while some fisherman and their families starve.   And sure, 'this way to the ocean', because the ocean is safe for everyone and everyone who lives here is welcome.... need to borrow a boat?



juliaoceania -> RE: Sailing the Seas of Ideology (8/26/2006 1:38:31 PM)

I think that the seas are over fished because people sucked them all up with free markets and for profit and they are not living sustainably because of corporate greed.



CrappyDom -> RE: Sailing the Seas of Ideology (8/26/2006 2:00:02 PM)

One of the major failings of capitalism and greed in general is we value resourses for their extraction cost, not by their actual utility.  Oil is a perfect example.  There is nothing else out there equal to gasoline for energy to volume ratio so it is "invaluable" as a fuel.  It is also irreplaceable for making chemicals, even more so than for fuel.  However, because the cost of extracting it is relatively low, we suck it out of the ground and sell it not for its actual value as a fuel or usefullness for making chemicals which would make it expensive but at the cheap cost of simply sucking it out of the ground.




WyrdRich -> RE: Sailing the Seas of Ideology (8/26/2006 2:13:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I think that the seas are over fished because people sucked them all up with free markets and for profit and they are not living sustainably because of corporate greed.



      Yes, we got that, "corporations bah-ah-ad."  Unfortunately, greed is a fantastic motivator to human progress.  How do we balance these things to get something better?



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