Trust, Trust, Trust, Trust. Trust ... (Full Version)

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babysburnin -> Trust, Trust, Trust, Trust. Trust ... (8/28/2006 5:40:02 PM)

Thanks to all who have replied to my previous thread:
http://www.collarchat.com/m_556491/tm.htm

As I read them, the underlying and reoccuring theme is trust, or lack thereof.

I know this sounds like a naive question, but ... What the heck ... why is trust such a powerfully negative issue in so many of our lives ... what has gone wrong?  

Has distrust within personal relationships been prevelent since the dawn of time (and please no one pull out Eve ate the apple or I will scream, lol)?    

It's such a huge issue ... beginning with the motivations for lying to another ... personal gain, self-preservation, denial ... ugg.

Pardon my French, but lies suck!  Lies we tell each other, and lies we tell ourselves.

All you venture capitalists and scientists out there ... find a cure ... you'll be right up there with Post-Its and the Space Station. [;)]



juliaoceania -> RE: Trust, Trust, Trust, Trust. Trust ... (8/28/2006 6:16:17 PM)

Trust is a huge issue, because you can think that you are fully trusting someone and then something happens that shows you that you are not. You perceive things that are said in a different light, actions taken, all because of what has happened before. It isn't that I am distrustful, it is that like anyone else I have been lied to and led around by my nose... it is hard not to let experiences we have had color one's outlook.

I am finding that saying I trust, and actually trusting are two different things, and I am actively trying to give trust to another person, and that isn't very easy at times. I think the way to get to that trusting place is to make sure you keep talking it out no matter what, and not assume that you know what another intends based upon past experiences.

It is not that unusal to distrust after someone teaches us not to. It is hard to unlearn things like this because once we have learned something from a bad experience it is very likely engrained deeply inside our psyches. It isn't that we do not want to trust, it just takes time to learn it is safe to once again...



babysburnin -> RE: Trust, Trust, Trust, Trust. Trust ... (8/28/2006 6:46:07 PM)

I agree.  I suppose we would all be more healthy if we treated one another better and that we, at least tried, to live by the old, sappy saying, "Honesty is the best policy."  Lies just buy time anyway ...

Honesty can be hurtful ... but I'd rather suffer that truthful pain.
I'm just thinking ... I'm not being hurt at this time ... on the contrary, I'm being healed (and I thought I had healed myself).

Guess what EZ ... I gain as much from you as you do from me ... Thanks from the whole of my heart, but you know that ... [:)]



stockingluvr54 -> RE: Trust, Trust, Trust, Trust. Trust ... (8/28/2006 7:24:14 PM)

Ya...it's a biggy...that's for sure! The trust thing has caused more folks to build walls (myself included).....and they are hard to tear down either by yourself or someone else.......



Miseri -> RE: Trust, Trust, Trust, Trust. Trust ... (8/29/2006 8:54:08 PM)

Well, we're throwing the term trust out there, but honesty is described as important, too and I have to wholeheartedly agree. In fact, they go together.

In my opinion, in ANY type of relationship honesty is vital. In fact, during one of my 'libertine eras', I got incredibly frustrated by lies and head games I was getting out of various people. I just started putting what I wanted on the table. If they decided it wasn't for them, I wasn't having my time wasted. A bit cynical, but I do think honesty saves a lot of trouble, miscommunication and heartache.

Trust is vital to the way I live with my Master and the way I play with others, but on different levels. With my Master, I trust him absolutely. I sometimes ask questions about his instructions out of curiousity (with varying results) but I understand that he has his reasons for things and would never let harm come to me, so I can comply without fear. In a more specific example of trusting others in a play situation, a friend I trust very much has told me I will be safe with a particular dominant as well as a shibari rigger and I trust his estimations of both people and also that he would look out for me as well.

Sorry if that is a bit rambley!



CreoleCook -> RE: Trust, Trust, Trust, Trust. Trust ... (8/30/2006 3:49:24 AM)

While I realize I'm dominant, I wish to answer this, with a response of.... its not trust.  It's integrity. 


CC



pqwinny -> RE: Trust, Trust, Trust, Trust. Trust ... (8/30/2006 6:55:00 AM)

i just had a discussion last night with my Sir about this topic (sort of). He asked if i believed white lies were acceptable?  if i would lie to protect my children? if i would lie to avoid answering a question i felt was inappropriate for the asker to pose?

... trust stems from honesty and telling lies vs. telling truths.  i have come to the point in my life where i fully realize that all things are relative.  By that i mean that some things are clearly and blatantly lies or misrepresentations but a whole lot of the rest of communication stuff that falls into the category of less than wholly truthful is pretty grey and subjective.

For me,
i cannot be less than wholly truthful about a thing when asked.  i can choose not to answer, but will not lie to avoid the real answer. 
i think white lies are harmful to the teller and the tellee-if only in micro measurable increments that add up over time and run the risk of tempting one into believing their own bullshit. 
and as for my children, i know without question that i would take a bullet for them, so i am quite certain i would lie to protect them (in a dire situation) as well. Seems contradictory, i know, but it's just the truth [;)]  see what i mean about 'all things are relative'  (no pun intended... honest)

IMO it all comes down to the old favorite, communication.  if i feel or discover i've been told less than the truth, i'll ask why and want to talk it out.  Could be a misunderstanding, could be irreconcilable differences.  Only communication will uncover which.



MzTlaz -> RE: Trust, Trust, Trust, Trust. Trust ... (8/30/2006 7:11:04 AM)

I just don't think lying is worth it.   It takes a lot of energy and a damn good memory to be a liar....well, and not to be caught.   Lies have a tendency of always being found out sooner or later and the damage they do is so hard to fix....trust is not easily re-won no matter how hard the person lied to wants to trust again.

Personally I look below the lies, to see what makes a person lie....is it through insecurity or selfishness, they tend to be the two major reasons.  I have more understanding for people who lie through insecurity, the damage to the trust is the same but I'm more willing to work on things with that person than with the person who lies out of pure selfishness.



subinside -> RE: Trust, Trust, Trust, Trust. Trust ... (8/30/2006 5:45:40 PM)

Trust is a hard thing for me.  Initially, i trust someone to be truthful to me, and as long as there is no evidence to the contrary, i will continue to trust that said person is being truthful.  That does not mean i am naive... it means i'll give them the benefit of the doubt until such a time that i catch on.. erm catch something that makes me think otherwise.  i will wrestle with it myself for a while, but i will watch.  Once i'm positive a lie has been laid upon me, i'll confront it and the liar. 

This is usually the beginning of the end... when the other person realizes that i wasn't lying about the fact i'm smart and my being a submissive doesn't mean i'm a doormat.

And as everyone says.. trust, once lost... is gone.



TemptingNviceSub -> RE: Trust, Trust, Trust, Trust. Trust ... (8/30/2006 10:20:07 PM)

I think as a person gets older trust becomes harder to achieve..it is harder to let down those walls of learned pain...is there an answer to this issue...I do not believe so...sometimes it takes a blind leap of faith...you will either splat or soar...and ever the eternal optimist..I always hope to soar.....Tempting



MissDiandSirHugh -> RE: Trust, Trust, Trust, Trust. Trust ... (8/30/2006 10:26:22 PM)

To our way if thinking before any one can give their Trust to some one else they firstly must Trust them selves in that they will tell the truth they will act in a proper manner and they will be true to their beliefs and feelings.
Then after Trusting them selves to do these things it is possible to carrie them on to take the Trust of others and to also return that Trust.
So that break the Trust of others are realy breaking the Trust they have in them selves and can never fully rebuild it in any way as to say they have done so is only liveing a Lie.



Kirei -> RE: Trust, Trust, Trust, Trust. Trust ... (8/30/2006 10:29:10 PM)

  Trust comes with truth....if we are truthful it is easier to trust someone.  The other main reason why trust is so hard is very simple...ever hear the saying, "Trust takes years to build and only moments to break"?  Gives us something to think about.

On a personal side note I do not see where Eve and the apple come into play with this issue.  That situation is all man's, or Adam's fault....for if you remember he was in charge and responsible for everything in the garden....including Eve!  If Adam would have said to God, "It is all my fault you placed me in charge, you gave her to me...in the end I am responsible and accountable for all that she has done, and I am the only one that should be blamed".  How much different would life be for us?  Instead we as humans do the same thing its all someone else's fault not ours.

Koneko



joyinslavery -> RE: Trust, Trust, Trust, Trust. Trust ... (8/30/2006 10:33:27 PM)

In ____________ we trust. 



WhiteRadiance -> RE: Trust, Trust, Trust, Trust. Trust ... (8/31/2006 5:07:57 AM)

I think CreoleCook said it best- it is about integrity, and honor.  When someone comes to me for an opinion, they can count on getting the real thing.  If someone asks me if an outfit looks good, and it doesn't- I do not say, "That looks GREAT on you!"  to keep from hurting their feelings. Honesty may be hurtful.. but once a person has the reputation for lying, no one believes anything they say from that point on.
 
Being upfront is paramount.  A lie of omission does as much damage as a spoken lie.   
 
 



onestandingstill -> RE: Trust, Trust, Trust, Trust. Trust ... (9/1/2006 10:04:35 AM)

Trust went south with integrity. Till the day when/if integrity and being a person of your word is fashionable again we'll just have to deal with the asinine liars in our midst.
For me my word is still my bond, but it's very uncommon in the general populous these days. People want quick fixes and tell people what ever they want to hear to reach their goals. The funny thing is they get all bent that you don't respect or trust them, but they too know they lie and play these kinds of games.
It's the whole how do you soar with the eagles when you're surrounded by nothing but turkeys thing for me for sure.
Suzanne



Mavis -> RE: Trust, Trust, Trust, Trust. Trust ... (9/1/2006 12:06:08 PM)

i don't think trust requires "ultimate, complete unquestioned honesty"... there are cases where honesty would break trust.

i like to trust my mate isn't looking for a replacement for me.  telling me that my ass is ugly isn't going to foster that trust.  

My telling a partner they've got the smallest dik i've ever seen isn't going to assure them i want to be with them for reasons beyond dik size.

When the boss who is an idiot and brags about how he landed the smitters contract, when everyone full knows Jones did it,  having the honesty to say """Hell, thank Jones"  would be nice, but might get Jones on the bosses bad list, how much will he thank you for that honesty?

There is much honesty in silence though.  Maybe guys should stop asking women about their dicks, and women not ask if this dress makes my ass look huge, and bosses stop bragging about things they didn't achieve.

Trust is built on knowing that the expectations we hold are accurate, not that every word spoken is. Trust is also built thru knowing when the truest words help or hurt.



Emperor1956 -> RE: Trust, Trust, Trust, Trust. Trust ... (9/1/2006 12:36:30 PM)

quote:

CreoleCook:  While I realize I'm dominant, I wish to answer this, with a response of.... its not trust.  It's integrity. 


No.  It is trust.  Integrity is important, but trust is paramount.  You can talk about integrity all you want.  You can shout from the rooftops "I have integrity" (although ironically, those that have it rarely need to shout it).  Integrity can be self-promoted.  Integrity (or the trappings of it) can be invented.  On the otherhand, trust has to be developed.  Trust involves the willing participation of another.  Trust is built over time and through experience, and at bottom, you can't create trust when it isn't there.  You can't force another to trust You.

E.

(And as a PS, I agree with Mavis.  "I'm being honest" all too often is a code word for "I want to be mean to you".  Honesty is important, but it does NOT require cruelty or harshness.  People who are "just being honest" are usually being mean, and cloaking their behavior with a false claim of honesty...which makes them both mean, and dishonest.)



onestandingstill -> RE: Trust, Trust, Trust, Trust. Trust ... (9/1/2006 1:05:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Emperor1956

quote:

CreoleCook:  While I realize I'm dominant, I wish to answer this, with a response of.... its not trust.  It's integrity. 


No.  It is trust.  Integrity is important, but trust is paramount.  You can talk about integrity all you want.  You can shout from the rooftops "I have integrity" (although ironically, those that have it rarely need to shout it).  Integrity can be self-promoted.  Integrity (or the trappings of it) can be invented.  On the otherhand, trust has to be developed.  Trust involves the willing participation of another.  Trust is built over time and through experience, and at bottom, you can't create trust when it isn't there.  You can't force another to trust You.

E.

(And as a PS, I agree with Mavis.  "I'm being honest" all too often is a code word for "I want to be mean to you".  Honesty is important, but it does NOT require cruelty or harshness.  People who are "just being honest" are usually being mean, and cloaking their behavior with a false claim of honesty...which makes them both mean, and dishonest.)

I still disagree with both of you. If you tell me you're going to do something or you see something a certain way for the near future and it's all BS then I'm not going to fully trust the next time you make a similar statement.  Without integrity in someone, the ability to believe the current words after the idle chatter that's proved to be bogus in the past is gone. Integrity and honesty does not mean you need to have absolute full disclosure to everyone. It means when you say you're doing something you do it or explain what happened that made accomplishing the mission beyond your control. You don't agree with someone because you're too scared to stand up for your beliefs or your view is not a popular one.
I'd also say trust in deep commitments is something that gets deeper over time, but general trust is something I give all people till they personally prove to me they don't deserve it.
Having integrity does indeed go hand in hand with how much you are trusted by others.



Archer -> RE: Trust, Trust, Trust, Trust. Trust ... (9/1/2006 2:53:41 PM)

I'll pose this as something to think about.
What "trust" really is the ability to trust your ability to predict what someone will do.
That is the thing that causes the problem, we are used to them behaving in a specific manner and when that changes we are unable to predict and thus plan for our future encounters with them.

You trust that they will behave within certain moral (not religious) framework, and if they do not then it's work to try to predict their behaviour. We want to be lazy and have all those predictions be easy and accurate.



onestandingstill -> RE: Trust, Trust, Trust, Trust. Trust ... (9/1/2006 4:56:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

I'll pose this as something to think about.
What "trust" really is the ability to trust your ability to predict what someone will do.
That is the thing that causes the problem, we are used to them behaving in a specific manner and when that changes we are unable to predict and thus plan for our future encounters with them.

You trust that they will behave within certain moral (not religious) framework, and if they do not then it's work to try to predict their behavior. We want to be lazy and have all those predictions be easy and accurate.

The context I discuss is not one where I posed people predict anything. For example if you say I will pick you up at 5:30 and you don't show or call till 9 that's not a prediction. It was an agreement someone willingly offered you they did not follow through with. If something came up in my opinion a person would call and say circumstances render this..... That way I am not left to walk around worrying something happened to someone for one. It's common courtesy for another. If indeed nine out of ten times your actions have shown your word to be invalid then it's not a prediction but an educated position of lack of trust you stand on. I mean come on, lets be for real would you follow a Dom who lead you off cliffs all the time??? If you want to be considered honorable you have to take honorable steps. If you speak with a forked tongue people see you're a snake underneath anyway. I want no part in the distortion. Or how about this one. What if you had a sub who vowed to be only yours that cheated on you & lied about it? Not that in reality someone would probably keep her, but what if you caught her cheating like 10 times. The next time something happened that kept her out late what would you think? She's out cheating of course. Again it's her track record that would condemn her not your random guess. I want a foundation of stone. I want a Dom that I will believe wholeheartedly even if he told me he saw a flying horse. Doubt creeps in by the actions of one individual not having integrity. If someone has never lied to me I'd way more have the ability based on their prior track record  to trust their word or agreement. Integrity & the ability to trust go hand and hand in my book.
Suzanne



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