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Autonomy: Pros & Cons - 8/29/2006 2:01:19 PM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline 		::skip to bold for the actual question as this is rather long and perhaps boring. ::chuckles::

Our recent move has me pondering the pros and cons of service autonomy. The two extremes, to me, would be complete mircromanagement all the way through complete autonomy with no input or feedback. Both these seem fairly unrealistic and I would suspect most of us fall somewhere between the two, albeit maybe closer to one end of the spectrum than the other.

For myself, Master gives me fairly unrestricted autonomy when it comes to taking care of the homefront. When bills are to be paid, when certain things are to be done and at what times are pretty much left to my discretion. As long as the bills are paid on time and when he wants something (clothing to wear, certain foods to eat) it's available to him, everything is fairly calm and peaceful.

Feedback, in my case, is rather unimportant. I 'know' the windows are clean, everything is disinfected, the toilets are scrubbed, the freezer is full, there are clean clothes in the closets etc. Getting a 'thank you' or 'job well done' is unnecessary and seems rather to defeat the purpose of unobtrusive service for me. If he doesn't really notice what I'm doing, then to me, that's a job well done.

Input, on the other hand, is rather necessary. This became especially clear during the move when there were issues with which I just could not deal. Where did he want his hobby center? Where should his office desk go and which window should it face? Things which required his input so, once we were settled, life could carry on an even keel without too much upset to daily routine.

Which brings me to the subject line.. what do you find are the pros and cons of service autonomy? How much autonomy do you give or get in your BDSM relationship with your SO/s? Is a 24/7 live-in arrangement more or less conducive to service autonomy in your opinion?

For me, one obvious 'pro' is the flexibility autonomy affords me on a day to day basis. When something pops up that requires immediate attention, I don't have to wait around or request permission to take care of business. This is especially important during emergencies, of course, and most likely something everyone enjoys regardless of their level of autonomy. But outside of emergencies, there is the ability to switch chores around for the sake of convenience or ease.

Example: The vaccuum cleaner belt broke, so vaccuuming was put off for a day and a belt added to the list of items to pick up at the store. Instead of having to run right out and purchase a belt to get that chore done, I have the autonomy to put it off for a day. Since I have to go to the store anyway, I will save gas by doing both chores (picking up the belt and doing the additional shopping) at the same time. Since I couldn't do the vaccuuming, I switched it with mopping the bathroom floors. Both chores done, but done in the most efficient manner.

In addition, I have the option to baby myself a bit when I'm not feeling up to snuff because of illness or fatigue and things of that nature.

On the con side, having such liberal autonomy does have it's drawbacks which I came to discover when I began unpacking at the new house. With few exceptions (the television 'had' to go in a certain spot because of cable, the computers likewise, phones likewise) everything was left to me to put away and arrange as I desired. Sounds good until it dawned on me (and Himself) that he simply didn't know where anything was! Normally, this would not be an issue because he can simply ask me to fetch him something. But, there are times, when I won't be available (at the store, visiting in another state) so it became necessary for him to learn where everything was, and as I'm the sort who believes in putting something back as soon as I'm done with it, he can count on things always being in the same place.

Another drawback to such a high level of autonomy, is that I'm not always certain that I'm doing what he would want me to be doing. This use to cause me great consternation, but over the years, I've learned that silence is, indeed, golden. If he doesn't need to bring something up, it's because he's felt I've done an adequate job taking care of business.

It's been awhile since I was able to hit the forums, so excuse the longevity of this post. It seems that I had much to say and my fingers just wouldn't quit talking. ::grins::

Celeste

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Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."

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RE: Autonomy: Pros & Cons - 8/29/2006 2:07:58 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble
Which brings me to the subject line.. what do you find are the pros and cons of service autonomy? How much autonomy do you give or get in your BDSM relationship with your SO/s? Is a 24/7 live-in arrangement more or less conducive to service autonomy in your opinion? Celeste

Personally, it's almost all pro to be autonomous.  Things get done, get done well, and everyone has more fun time together.  As long as the communication system is in place, it's not an issue.  It suits my nature, my training, my expectations and abilities.

The one major con to autonomy is that it doesn't help break me of my habits of letting others do things for me, even when they should.  It reinforces my own ideas of being "the one" that everyone relies on, and doesn't make me feel comfortable asking for help, even when I should.  I have a VERY hard time being passive, and letting others do for me.

IMO a 24/7 live is less CONDUCIVE to autonomy versus non-live in situations, but I think live-ins tend to encourage and relate to better to more autonomy as a relationship overall.

< Message edited by LuckyAlbatross -- 8/29/2006 2:08:38 PM >

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RE: Autonomy: Pros & Cons - 8/29/2006 3:19:13 PM   
cloudboy


Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
Status: offline
There is more room for conflict and acrimony in the micromanagment of service obligations.

Still, w/o micromanagement, there could strict inspection of the final product.

The worst case scenario is a bad, unhelpful, idiotic, control-freak, can-never-be-wrong micromanager.

(in reply to BitaTruble)
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RE: Autonomy: Pros & Cons - 8/29/2006 4:23:57 PM   
SusanofO


Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline 		In theory, micro-management can seem sexy to me, Outside of a scene, though, I  think it might drive me insane. I agree with LA: If given a choice, I am way on the side of automonomy, even if it might, at times, leave one feeling somewhat less appreciated because "it's all up to you." Maybe I'd end up asking to strive for a "happy medium"(not sure).

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 8/29/2006 4:25:10 PM >

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RE: Autonomy: Pros & Cons - 8/29/2006 5:26:35 PM   
Homestead


Posts: 1005
Status: offline 		Extreme micromanagement seems linked to extremes of insecurity and trust. It means you think your partner is incompetent,-so you have to do thier thinking for them.

Which brooks the question, "Why would you want to have someone that dysfunctional in your life, can't you do any BETTER?"


(in reply to SusanofO)
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RE: Autonomy: Pros & Cons - 8/29/2006 6:04:56 PM   
amayos


Posts: 1553
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: New England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

Which brings me to the subject line.. what do you find are the pros and cons of service autonomy? How much autonomy do you give or get in your BDSM relationship with your SO/s? Is a 24/7 live-in arrangement more or less conducive to service autonomy in your opinion?



Welcome back, Celeste,

The act of a slave closely mirroring her owner's thoughts and absorbing her owner's instruction will inevitably result in autonomy of a sort. I have seen this with those I have trained, and in fact expect it to take root. Micromanaging is something I will only care to do during training of a particular responsibility or task. If I am training a girl how to scrub the floor to my liking, I will stand over her and instruct with care of every detail, but it is made known to her that she is to learn how to do it without my supervision. I do analyze the final product, and if something is not in order, she is of course corrected.

Autonomy is preferable for many reasons, short stay or permanent living arrangement. If I am to hold her hand during every mundane task, what is the sense of having a slave? Where is the inherent gain in this? I desire service that allows me to concentrate on higher goals. Incompetence is correctable, so long as it does not become chronic, and I, merely a crutch.

The sin in autonomy can be assumption. I always tell a slave that it is better to ere on the side of not assuming anything; if you are unsure, ask. You will most likely get a few warm strokes on the head for being so good as to inquire. The worst you'll get is a mild scolding or a slap for asking something I may consider obvious or already explained—nothing compared to the beating laying in wait for going beyond the boundaries established.




< Message edited by amayos -- 8/29/2006 6:07:44 PM >

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RE: Autonomy: Pros & Cons - 8/29/2006 6:05:37 PM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline 		How important is autonomy to me? I'd have to say that I could not function in a relationship without it. Autonomy says to me that my partner is confident in my capabilities. Micromanagement would say exactly the opposite to me. Like you Celeste, feedback about keeping the home running up to par is not necessary. I do like to hear commentary on food...but I don't need him to come home and say "Wow, that toilet sure looks clean, you're such a good girl".

As for rearranging and decorating, I do quite well on my own. If I am going to make big changes (such as your move), I would ask if he had any specific preferences where anything should go....and then I would just go from there.

btw....good to have you back!

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~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

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RE: Autonomy: Pros & Cons - 8/29/2006 6:14:46 PM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline 		let me put it this way HIB is a structured home. It will be even more so when the transition from a gorean Home to a Victorian one is complete with a written manifesto, sub/slave training programm rewritten to allow for subs and not just slaves. There will be a hierachial structure. I should never have to micro mannage things unless they are sensitive and reqjuire a second pair of hands (mine will be the first pair). A list of requirements regarding the home opperations (daily, weekly and monthly chores) will be written and adjusted to the amount of servants available. Once I have voiced my expectations I expect them to be carried out without any comment for me exceopt for the operiodin house inspection during which I will wear white gloves. generally I am prone to give praise where it is deserved and question things where I require answers and deal with errors appropriatly (usually retraining). that I don't feel the need to micro manage is praise enough for an operation well run and of course I can always treat the slaff with things which they enjoy (like a good spanking of flogging or something amusing).

IB

< Message edited by IronBear -- 8/29/2006 6:16:07 PM >

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RE: Autonomy: Pros & Cons - 8/29/2006 6:19:11 PM   
sublizzie


Posts: 1252
Joined: 5/26/2004
Status: offline 		Since I don't have a D/s relationship yet, let me just say "Welcome back!!" It's good to see you.

I'm interested in seeing what other people have to say in response to your question though. As a service-oriented submissive, this has piqued (sp?) my interest.

(in reply to BitaTruble)
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RE: Autonomy: Pros & Cons - 8/29/2006 6:19:46 PM   
raiken


Posts: 868
Joined: 10/18/2005
Status: offline 		i like having my autonomy, i really don't know how to be anyone else's reflection other than my own in that sense.  However, incorporating and applying the lessons i am taught, into the betterment of my being is something i do naturally as it is one of the ways i learn, grow and expand, both as a person and as a slave for the Master.  i like being able to think on my feet, and like feeling confident and capable in my abilities.  Being able to trust in myself and rely on my own instincts in a critical situation is tantamount.  The last thing i wish to be viewed as, is a person/slave that Master or anyone else in my circle would have to be overly concerned about during a crisis situation, because they don't feel i am capable to act on my own behalf if need be.

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RE: Autonomy: Pros & Cons - 8/29/2006 8:14:48 PM   
OriginalWench


Posts: 39
Joined: 3/23/2006
Status: offline 		I have a huge amount of autonomy here, in part because The Mate doesn't want to micromanage, and in part because I know what needs to be done and the best way for me to accomplish it.  It does make a difference that we are really 24/7 TPE, although he does own me.  His belief is that he's spent a lot of time working to make me the person I am, and that he wants to sit back and watch me blossom into all I can be (Why does that sound so army-like? Hee).  For him, it makes is all the more special that I submit to him when I don't HAVE to. 


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RE: Autonomy: Pros & Cons - 8/29/2006 9:18:10 PM   
HarryVanWinkle


Posts: 1720
Joined: 5/8/2006
Status: offline 		Celeste,

First off, welcome back.  I, for one, missed your inputs here.

I think it's really easy to go too far either way, either too much autonomy or too little.  I thnk it's something each relationship has to work out.  As I see it, if a Dom is particular, wants a lot of things done "just so," then some micromanagement is probably called for when the relationship is new.  However, I've known very few subs or slaves whom I would consider to be stupid people.  Show them how you want things done once or twice and they should be able to manage on their own.

Glad you're back.


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RE: Autonomy: Pros & Cons - 8/29/2006 9:49:08 PM   
Homestead


Posts: 1005
Status: offline 		A well trained sub has only to have one thought in autonomous situations.

"What would HE want me to do?"

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RE: Autonomy: Pros & Cons - 8/30/2006 1:13:50 AM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline 		Hi Celeste, good to see you on here again.

As you know, mine is not a live-in situation.  But I do know Master well enough by now to know what he wants of me.  In the beginnings, he was more involved with the details.  That is because he was training me what the details were.  Now I know them, and do what I do, to his liking.  I know how I must conduct myself at all times, and how he likes things done.  If I am ever unsure, I ask.  He would much prefer I ask rather than assume incorrectly.  However, those rare times when he is unavailable for the asking, I either hold off until I can ask, or, if that is not an option, I decide based on what I think he would decide, and will then bring it to him as soon as is possible.

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RE: Autonomy: Pros & Cons - 8/30/2006 6:06:12 AM   
BeingChewsie


Posts: 1633
Joined: 10/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Homestead

A well trained sub has only to have one thought in autonomous situations.

"What would HE want me to do?"


In which case it isn't really autonomous is it?

It is not being self-governing or being self determing.

I have zero autonomy. In the way I understand autonomy which would be fully independent thought/action.

The american heritage dictionary defines autonomy as :
  1. The condition or quality of being autonomous; independence.
  2. Self-government or the right of self-government; self-determination.

a. Self-government with respect to local or internal affairs: granted autonomy to a national minority.

Everything I do is done either at his behest or done in a way he has stated he likes/wants. Everything. He doesn't stand over me when I do things, he is way too independence driven and frankly away too much for that...but I'm still not autonomous..I make no autonomous decisions..after almost 7 years nearly everything in my life is neatly cut and dried..things that deviate he gets an e-mail across his blackberry or a phone call. That rarely happens. My life is extremely structured.

I'm not self-governing, nor do I determine my path or define my choices. I may have a choice between eggs or fruit for breakfast..it doesn't make me autonomous because eggs or fruit are the only options he gives me. I can't decide gee I'd like french toast and go have french toast..that would be an example of being autonomous.

I guess the best way to put it here there is no self-goverment on the local or internal level allowed...this is a dictatorship through and through.


< Message edited by BeingChewsie -- 8/30/2006 6:08:41 AM >

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RE: Autonomy: Pros & Cons - 8/30/2006 1:25:28 PM   
amayos


Posts: 1553
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: New England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BeingChewsie

I have zero autonomy. In the way I understand autonomy which would be fully independent thought/action.

The american heritage dictionary defines autonomy as :
  1. The condition or quality of being autonomous; independence.
  2. Self-government or the right of self-government; self-determination.

a. Self-government with respect to local or internal affairs: granted autonomy to a national minority.

Everything I do is done either at his behest or done in a way he has stated he likes/wants. Everything. He doesn't stand over me when I do things, he is way too independence driven and frankly away too much for that...but I'm still not autonomous..I make no autonomous decisions..after almost 7 years nearly everything in my life is neatly cut and dried..things that deviate he gets an e-mail across his blackberry or a phone call. That rarely happens. My life is extremely structured.

I'm not self-governing, nor do I determine my path or define my choices. I may have a choice between eggs or fruit for breakfast..it doesn't make me autonomous because eggs or fruit are the only options he gives me. I can't decide gee I'd like french toast and go have french toast..that would be an example of being autonomous.

I guess the best way to put it here there is no self-goverment on the local or internal level allowed...this is a dictatorship through and through.



Chewsie, your argument is backed up by sound logic, and your philosophy is admirable, to say the least.

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RE: Autonomy: Pros & Cons - 8/30/2006 2:45:38 PM   
angielouwhos


Posts: 87
Joined: 7/9/2006
Status: offline 		One person's micromanagement is another person's management. In general in my experience I have not had much autonomy but I think it's still far from being a robot too. I think that sort of non-autonomy is probably not realistic in a day to day relationship. To play with it is kind of nice it's like a giant challenge of "simon says" :)

(in reply to BitaTruble)
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