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RE: How ready are you for Spanish? - 9/5/2006 10:15:43 AM   
meatcleaver


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Status: offline 		Integration is what will bring success to ethnic communities left behind. At the end of the 19th century it was the Jews that were seen as problematic immigrants in the East End of London and now they are an unparalleled success. However, Jewish people have a culture of publicly integrating into the society in which they live so there are no surprises there. The Bangladeshis who occupy the same Whitechapel area the Jews used to don't and that is a problem because they are one of the poorest and lowest achieving immigrant groups.

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RE: How ready are you for Spanish? - 9/5/2006 10:49:27 AM   
LadyEllen


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From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		MC - another excellent point. So why is it that some immigrant populations integrate and function in wider society, but some dont?

Jews, not to mention Irish and hosts of others pre-war, have integrated into British society it seems to me. Sure, they retain their cultures and religions, and tend to cluster a little, but one seems to find them participating in society at all levels, living dispersed in the general population and not wholly isolated with their own. I also see some evidence of Hindus and especially Sikhs starting to do the same now that they are on the 3rd or 4th generation - moving out of the clusters and assimilating.

I think it has to do with the reason you mentioned - economic activity and prosperity, and knowing some Hindu and Sikh families, that stems from the educational and professional aspirations of the previous generation; the encouragement (pressure) put on Hindu and Sikh children by their parents to attain A levels and degrees and to become doctors, lawyers, accountants etc is incredible. These people tend to achieve highly, enabling them to move out of the ghetto and ensuring in many ways that they assimilate and integrate, quite apart from the fact that in order to achieve in the education stakes the children have to learn English well.

Meanwhile, whilst I do not want this to turn into another Islam bashing thread, and its by no means unknown in Muslim communities for the same pressures to be put on children, your point about the Bangladeshi community in London should not go unnoted. I heard a statistic a month or so ago that said that the single largest group of men by ethnicity, out of work and on benefits is Muslims. This could be racism applied by employers of course, but to be frank, most employers dont know the difference between a Hindu, Sikh or Muslim from the ISC, so this is unlikely.

Is it those parents (of all immigrant communities, not just Muslim) who lack aspiration or will to participate in our foreign society, who are in effect perpetuating the problem I wonder? Is it that they find our way of life so downright disagreeable that they insist on importing and retaining everything from their lands and cultures of origin? If so, then what on earth are they doing here I wonder? Why are they so unable to see that they must accomodate to the UK at least as much as the UK accomodates to them?

I still think we need something to provide unification and common loyalties, but MC's point is well taken. Integration is dependent on engagement and the aspiration to integrate to wider society.
E


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RE: How ready are you for Spanish? - 9/5/2006 11:08:12 AM   
seeksfemslave


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Status: offline 		Lady E: it is logically impossible for a society to exist where ALL operate at the highest level. When divisions develop based on racial/religious grounds then the most likely outcome is trouble. That is what we have got.

How do you think the offspring of the thousands of 15 year old largely white girls are likely to behave in the next 20 years. Either drugged to the eyeballs or violent or thieving.

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RE: How ready are you for Spanish? - 9/5/2006 11:19:37 AM   
LotusSong


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Is it that they find our way of life so downright disagreeable that they insist on importing and retaining everything from their lands and cultures of origin? If so, then what on earth are they doing here I wonder? Why are they so unable to see that they must accomodate to the UK at least as much as the UK accomodates to them?



This is gold.  Well said.

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I'm not inflatable.


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RE: How ready are you for Spanish? - 9/5/2006 11:20:39 AM   
LadyEllen


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Status: offline 		seeks - of course we cant all be doctors, lawyers or accountants, thats fairly obvious. The point is that it is through engagement and aspiration that integration occurs, whether immigrant communities become truck drivers, builders, labourers or whatever. If there is the aspiration to achieve, then education is where it starts, which means English is essential and then leads into careers of whatever sort, outside the ghetto. If one does not have such aspiration, one does not need to speak English, and one can never integrate into anything other than the ghetto after all.

The point about the offspring of young white girls twenty years from now is important to seeing that this is not simply an issue of different race, culture, religion etc. and tends to support the point I made. If these children do not receive the aspiration to achieve and engage, then they will end up where similar adults are now - in social housing, living on benefits without a hope (or care) in the world - a white ghetto. If they do receive such motivation, then they can achieve. It isnt the single under age mother scenario which determines their outcomes, its the motivation and aspiration to achieve which does. That the majority will not receive this motivation and will end up on benefits is likely, but not necessarily inescapable.
E 

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RE: How ready are you for Spanish? - 9/5/2006 11:41:08 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

1) Let me get this straight before answering - are you saying that Islamic terrorism is the evidence to support the claim that multi-culturalism is a disaster? A simple yes or no will do (if it is a no then why bring it up?).

2) "Go to the east end of London........"- Factual trends, please.

Regards


FACT- My daughter used to go to a school that was 98% Asian. The school around the corner had precisely 0% Asians and was a mix of white and black. Take a tour through Newham and you will find this model repeated.

As for facts, you always ask for facts when you are losing an argument. What do you call facts, official statistics? I spent ten years in teh Probation Service watching official statistics being manipulated for political and self interested reasons.

Seek has offered you facts and you have ignored them.
 
When you can distinguish between factual, social trends and anecdotes then we can have the discussion. Until then nothing for me to see here.


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RE: How ready are you for Spanish? - 9/5/2006 11:54:09 AM   
NorthernGent


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Status: offline 		NG, can you please offer some evidence of how multi-culturalism has proven to be a major social and economic success, if you claim that it is not a disaster? (bearing in mind that the head of the CRE, which is responsible for ensuring racial equality, says it has not worked?). I remain to be convinced how we can have a functioning nation with so many mutually exclusive and even antaganostic groups who refuse to integrate and remain loyal to their lands of origin rather than to the UK, but would like to share that happy vision.
 
The British are not a race, but a gathering of countless different races and communities, the vast majority of which were not indigenous to these islands.

In the pre-industrial era, when transport and communications were often easier by sea than by land, Britain was unusually open to external influence; first through foreign invasion, then, after Britain achieved naval supremacy, through commerce and imperial expansion. It is not their purity that makes the British unique, but the sheer pluralism of their ancestry.
London was first established as the capital of a Celtic Britain by Romans from Italy. They were in turn driven out by Saxons and Angles from Germany. The great cathedrals of this land were built mostly by Norman Bishops, but the religion practised in them was secured by the succession of a Dutch Prince. Outside our Parliament, Richard the Lionheart proudly sits astride his steed. A symbol of British courage and defiance. Yet he spoke French much of his life and depended on the Jewish community of England to put up the ransom that freed him from prison.

The idea that Britain was a ‘pure’ Anglo-Saxon society before the arrival of communities from the Caribbean, Asia and Africa is fantasy. We were multicultural long before such communities arrived and it is fair to say we have prospered.

Immigration is the unavoidable result of economic success, which generates a demand for labour faster than can be met by the birth-rate of a modern developed country.

Our cultural diversity is one of the reasons why Britain continues to be the preferred location for multinational companies setting up in Europe. The national airline of a major European country has recently relocated its booking operation to London precisely because of the linguistic variety of the staff whom it can recruit here.

Our lifestyles and cultural horizons have also been broadened in the process. This point is perhaps more readily understood by young Britons (apologies to the elder statesmen/women of the board but facts are facts) who are more open to new influences and more likely to have been educated in a multi-ethnic environment. But it reaches into every aspect of our national life.

Chicken Tikka Massala is now a true British national dish, not only because it is the most popular, but because it is a perfect illustration of the way Britain absorbs and adapts external influences. Chicken Tikka is an Indian dish. The Massala sauce was added to satisfy the desire of British people to have their meat served in gravy.

The modern notion of national identity cannot be based on race and ethnicity, but must be based on shared ideals and aspirations. Some of the most successful countries in the modern world, such as the United States and Canada, are immigrant societies.

Regards

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RE: How ready are you for Spanish? - 9/5/2006 11:58:49 AM   
NorthernGent


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Status: offline 		Far from making Britishness redundant, multi-culturalism makes the need for a shared framework of values and institutions all the more relevant. To act as a unifying force, that framework must be one that reflects the realities of contemporary Britain.
We should be proud to be British. But we should be proud of the real Britain of the modern age.

Proud that the strength of the British character reflects the influences of the many different communities who have made their home here over the centuries. Proud that openness, mutual respect and generosity of spirit are essential British values.

We should be proud that those British values have made Britain a successful multi-ethnic society. We should welcome that pluralism as a unique asset for Britain in a modern world where our prosperity, our security and our influence depend on the health of our relations with other peoples around the globe.

Regards

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RE: How ready are you for Spanish? - 9/5/2006 12:08:14 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

The idea that Britain was a ‘pure’ Anglo-Saxon society before the arrival of communities from the Caribbean, Asia and Africa is fantasy. We were multicultural long before such communities arrived and it is fair to say we have prospered.



Actually your education is a little behind the times on this issue. While the British aren't pure Anglo-Saxon, DNA has more or less proved the English up until quite recenttimes were almost pure Anglo-Saxon stock. Between 20,000-100,000 Anglo-Saxons arrived around 450AD and several decades after. There appears to have been no interbreeding with resident Britons and the Anglo-Saxons were a bigger and stronger stock and pushed the Britons out towards the edges of Briton. The purest Britons being the Welsh, the Scots being a mix of Anglo-Saxons and Scotti, the Picts appearing to have been absorbed or disappeared. The Irish are a mx of indiginous Irish and Anfglo-Saxons and Norse. It appears the English are more German than present day Germans.

Research is ongoing but the research so far as surprised scientists in the extreme.

Not that I think this changes anything but it stops the political correct idea that there never was a pure race of English.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 9/5/2006 12:10:18 PM >

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RE: How ready are you for Spanish? - 9/5/2006 12:13:05 PM   
NorthernGent


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Status: offline 		For so long Britain's food culture was a national embarrassment. Multiculturalism has been central to that renaissance. Italians, Greeks, Chinese and Thai, and Bangladeshi and Indian etc came to Britain bringing their food with them,

A quote from top chef Peter Gordon, ‘Britain is the country where my European friends feel the most excited by the diversity available.’

A good example of how food can encapsulate the potential of diversity is Rusholme in Manchester - the main street through Rusholme is Wilmslow Road, but to anyone who has been there, it is the ‘curry mile’. Some of the finest curry restaurants in the country sit side by side. It is inclusive: visit any of these restaurants and you will struck by the diversity of its clientele -Asian families, elderly white couples, rowdy students etc. It contributes to the city’s vibrant identity.

Regards

_____________________________

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Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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RE: How ready are you for Spanish? - 9/5/2006 12:13:23 PM   
meatcleaver


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Status: offline 		The Dutch, Normans and Franks, are also of the same Germanic stock as the Anglo-Saxons, all having a common ancestry so their small contribution to the mainly English won't show up in DNA research because they are the same people as the English.

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RE: How ready are you for Spanish? - 9/5/2006 12:25:47 PM   
NorthernGent


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Status: offline 		Research is ongoing but they've proved it. Sounds a contradiction in terms. I'll reserve judgement until I've seen it. Can you post the link please.

Regardless, you're right, it doesn't change a thing - we have had continuous immigration for centuries and we have punched well above our weight economically. We have a language (possibly our greatest export) that is a hybrid of French, German and old Norwegian due to immigration at varying points. I think it's fair to say we have benefitted from the influx of immigrants over the centuries and the resulting multi-culturalism.

Regards

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RE: How ready are you for Spanish? - 9/5/2006 12:27:26 PM   
LadyEllen


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From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		Sorry, but this is totally disingenuous to the current debate.

Immigration, diversity and pluralism are not the issue, neither is the slight genetic differences in various Indo European tribes who have lived here for centuries - integration of all the newcomers and the natives into a whole is. Eating a curry does not produce integration just as much as eating fish and chips does not.
E 

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RE: How ready are you for Spanish? - 9/5/2006 12:40:09 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Research is ongoing but they've proved it. Sounds a contradiction in terms. I'll reserve judgement until I've seen it. Can you post the link please.



It was in several magazines, one was the New Scientist and I think it was on the British Museum website or the Museum of London's. In between work I'll see if I can find a link.

But it still doesn't change a thing, integration is the key. Parts of certain cultures will be absorbed into the main culture, no one is arguing for an ethnically and culturally pure Britain, we are arguing that there should be one nation Britain, not an island with a myriad cultures and racial groups that don't mix.

EDIT. This wasn't the article I read, I read a much fuller version so I guess it must be the article on the British Museum site I read but I can't find it on there now but anyway, this is a fair precis of what I originally read.
http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn9575

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 9/5/2006 12:45:46 PM >

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RE: How ready are you for Spanish? - 9/5/2006 12:41:32 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Sorry, but this is totally disingenuous to the current debate.



It adds nothing to the debate I admit but it winds me up when people say there is no such thing as an English nation.

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RE: How ready are you for Spanish? - 9/5/2006 12:46:49 PM   
NorthernGent


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Status: offline 		From The Oxford English Dictionary:
Multicultural: adjective relating to or constituting several cultural or ethnic groups.
Our language based on several cultures, our food diversity and mix based on cultural and ethnic diversity, the willingness of employers to locate here due to our linguistic, cultural variety and our relative tolerance due to living in a multi-ethnic society are all successful results of living in a multi-cultural society.

Regards



_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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RE: How ready are you for Spanish? - 9/5/2006 12:50:07 PM   
NorthernGent


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Status: offline 		But it still doesn't change a thing, integration is the key. Parts of certain cultures will be absorbed into the main culture, no one is arguing for an ethnically and culturally pure Britain, we are arguing that there should be one nation Britain, not an island with a myriad cultures and racial groups that don't mix.

This brings us right back to where we started. That posted above should tell you that the varying cultures which have come here have, and do, mix.

Regards

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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RE: How ready are you for Spanish? - 9/5/2006 12:56:32 PM   
meatcleaver


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Status: offline 		You're back peddling from your original stance. This srtarted as an argument between multi-cultural society and an integrationist society. We all know the difference.

The English language is pure Germanic in gramatical structure, it is not based on several languages. Languages develop, absorb and mutate or they cease to exist so you can say there isn't a pure language in the world so putting forward the English language as proof of multi-culturism is a red herring.

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RE: How ready are you for Spanish? - 9/5/2006 1:08:52 PM   
NorthernGent


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Status: offline 		Quite an interesting read but it doesn't tally with your claim that DNA has more or less proved the English up until quite recent times were almost pure Anglo-Saxon stock.
From, the bottomn of the article:
Tyler-Smith worries that the conclusions the group came to are heavily dependent on data generated by previous groups, and involve a lot of hard-to-prove assumptions"
 
Here is an extract from the 'blood of the vikings' research team after their recent genetic research:

Results have shown that DNA does differ quite significantly from region to region across the British Isles. "Perhaps unsurprisingly the Scottish Islands show a substantial Viking influence," he says. "Although there are regional variations, it is not possible to determine precisely the amount of Viking influence because our estimates include a considerable degree of statistical uncertainty. Even so the results have proved fascinating, backing up some existing historical theories, but seriously questioning others."
 
Such a large-scale study of regional differences in DNA has also been useful in a wider context. The study has helped to refine methods for characterising detailed geographic patterns of genetic variation, which is of increasing importance in epidemiology. "There are also implications for forensic science," says Professor Goldstein, "It is normally assumed that Y chromosome from different parts of Europe are similar, but our work and that of others show that this is demonstrably wrong."
 
Not quite the homogoneous group you claim, nor the proof of Englishness.

Regards
 
 

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RE: How ready are you for Spanish? - 9/5/2006 1:11:00 PM   
NorthernGent


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Status: offline 		Backpeddling?

A very early point I responded to was the claim that a multi-culturalism has been a disaster for Britain. Those were the exact words used by a poster.

Regards

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