RE: Do slaves have the right to say no? (Full Version)

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MrDiscipline44 -> RE: Do slaves have the right to say no? (9/2/2006 7:59:43 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yourkajira

In certain cases.

for example, you have a slave and you are interested in anal sex. you are not interested in lube, or whatever, and when you do (she obediently complies) the girl who has such a high pain tolerence begs you stop, because it hurts too much.Now, this is a girl who has been raped (on several different occurances) in the past and you know this. Do you tell her basically that she has no right to deny you something that you want, and do it anyway, especially if you are...um...well endowed and don't take it easy. So, do you stop or tell her to shut up?
I, as a owner, take a slightly different path. You have every right to say no all you want. But with the exercises of this right, you should know that there will be consequences you will have to pay. Now, the nature of those consequences are dependent upon your owner. He may just kick you to the curb or he may rethink his approach. Either way, the outcome will not be of your choosing.



Taylore -> RE: Do slaves have the right to say no? (9/2/2006 8:00:05 AM)

This slave always has the option to say no to Master. Just as Master has the option to release me when I do so. [:)]
 
In the scenario that you have suggested though, I would explain to Master what was wrong. I would not tell him to stop. I would just explain what was wrong. It is Master's choice whether to proceed or not. Of course, this is all with the knowledge that Master would not want to destroy his property; he enjoys the use of me too much to do something so foolish as that. [:)]



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Do slaves have the right to say no? (9/2/2006 8:07:41 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

Do you drive your car without oil in it? While you have the right to do so that does not make it smart.

Same applies to any property, they all have limits of some sorts, Cars don't fly, Planes don't float, Hammers make lousy Pillows and vise versa. If you insist on using a piece of property in a manner beyond it's limits you are responsible for the damage.

LOL I  KNEW we'd be getting another "no limits" thread soon.

http://www.collarchat.com/m_510343/mpage_1/key_limits/tm.htm#511301
trust and hard limits

http://www.collarchat.com/m_389590/mpage_1/key_limits/tm.htm#389614
accepting of hard limits

http://www.collarchat.com/m_388223/mpage_1/key_limits/tm.htm#388233
Would you make your slave?

http://www.collarchat.com/m_354868/mpage_1/key_limits/tm.htm#354900
Fears Limits and Childhood

http://www.collarchat.com/m_325780/mpage_1/key_limits/tm.htm#326351
A question

http://www.collarchat.com/m_309485/mpage_2/key_limits/tm.htm#310016
Your hard limits are how hard?

http://www.collarchat.com/m_305935/mpage_8/key_limits/tm.htm#309073
No limit slaves

http://www.collarchat.com/m_194581/mpage_1/key_limits/tm.htm#194585
limits/no limits



JustaDom -> RE: Do slaves have the right to say no? (9/2/2006 8:22:57 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: millisande

Greetings, Master Joe.

this girl appoligizes, she did not realize that you had deleted your post, at the time that she posted.
re-reading it, she sees where you feel that it is a semantics issue, and she both agrees and disagrees on different levels... thank you for correcting her,
Best wishes to  Thee and Thine,
With all respect, and in hopes that this is pleasing to the Free,
bina, of Wolf


No need to apologize, bina.  I deleted something I thought was kinda pointless and snarky, you selected reply with a quote while that post was still up.  You disagreed with me respectfully and I have no problem with that.  Where our views diverge is likely on a small portion of the matter and one I might debate you on if I hadn't spent the evening finishing off a lovely 12 year old bottle of Single Malt Scotch.  You seem to be a polite young slave girl and I hope begging to be released or walking away are two parts of your philosophy that you will never have to put into practice.

Me, I think I'm going to put into practice sleeping in a bit.  [sm=goodnight.gif] 


Joe
Just a dom...who is still managing to hit the correct keys with decent accuracy.



puella -> RE: Do slaves have the right to say no? (9/2/2006 8:26:15 AM)

Hmm... this thread is probably going to end up in a train wreck somewhere along the lines... but here is my two cents.

You are a slave, you know what that means.  Can you say the word no?  Absolutely you can.  Does he have to abide by your no and your struggles, absolutely not, that was a right you gave up when you begged him to make you his property.

You may well experience things you do not like at the hands of your Master.  You may experience things which cause you permanent damage (which, by the way can be both mental and physical).  You are an adult.  If you continue to submit a man who perpetuates things which you know are going to cause you permanent damage without discussing it with him, or which after having discussed with him, he just doesn't care, it is no one's fault but your own if you get FUBAR'd.  You can not consent to an adult consensual relationship if you are too immature, or too mentally unstable to make that choice and what you are doing then has very little to do with relationships of those labels.  What you are venturing into instead is a willing victimization.

As for the concept that Gorean slaves are mindless, will-less obedient-only moronic yes dolls... I think you better go back and read the books.  Time after time after time the slaves push boundaries, disobey, throw fits, and speak without sound like 'third person Stepford wives';  hell, Elizabeth Cardwell was a sassy mouthed little vixen (rock on Bessy).  You are human, kajira or not.  You will fuck up, you will willingly fuck up, you will push, you will yell and scream when a 10 inch cock is shoved up your ass with no lube, you will not be a perfect domesticated zombie  who smiles and waits for hour upon hour in nadu (not without permanently damaging your knees, anyway)... and guess what... that is not abnormal, nor is it out of context of the books.

Does it mean you should TRY to be a displeasing fuck-whit?  No.  It just means you are going to behave like every other human being.  You have a Master.  He will keep you in your place, he will master you or not depending both upon his pleasure and his actual ability to do so.  If  you say 'no'... it does not revoke your slavery.  Slavery in a consensual relationship is nothing more than a denotation of consensual ownership.  What  saying now will do is more likely than not incur a punishment.  That is the difference  between being a slave and a vanilla partner of some sort.  If you an say no as a wife there is no reason for you to expect or tolerate punishment. You do not have that set of options as one who has submitted to another.

Your mind and reactions do not turn off when the collar snaps on.  The consequences for your actions simply become the choice of your owner.



LadyHugs -> RE: Do slaves have the right to say no? (9/2/2006 8:28:48 AM)

Dear Yourkajira, Ladies and Gentlemen;
 
If my understanding of Gorean Mastering, one of the statements of the philosophy of a Gorean Master is, not to be unduely cruel.  I think those who like beating up on women, find Gorean M/s dynamic due to the strict boundaries and the deny Masters nothing attitude.
 
There are always exceptions but, I am disappointed in finding heavy S&M in Gorean when the philosophy is to avoid the 'whip' per se and if one had to whip a kajira so, they would be cast aside.
 
Serving at the pleasure of any Master, that Master must give the ability to make it pleasant for both, as to have the kajirae eager to perform the pleasures again.  This is where the careful inserting by the author John Norman and later authors, the wording Masters were not to be cruel towards their kajirae.  So, going back to the issues before entering into a No limits slavery, under a Gorean platform of 'style' and or 'philosophy,'  there will be the human element--your owner.
 
Other than role playing characters, you also have a relationship that is not pre-written on a book.  Communications, being brave enough to say that you're never going to be a perfect kajira or no limits slave, it is needed to say 'no limit slave until those limits are found.'  As it is written, in the Gor books--to kill a kajira was of little consequence but, in real life there is more to deal with than books allow.  I notice on Gor, nobody ages, nobody takes a dump, kajirae are always needy horny women and don't have cycles.  They can do the Gorean Bow without pain or limits of time.  Realisticly, there are realities not written into the book but, it is a 'man's' book and isn't female friendly, as that does not fit into the fantasy sex novels for men's reading pleasure.  Norman never dreamed there would be a cult like following and or the elements of BDSM to be drawn out and popular.
 
If reasonable expectations are to be made, it would use the Gorean philosophy as a guide--not a iron clad bible/manual.  Communicate, negotiate, stay real so you both can live a happy relationship.
 
Respectfully submitted for consideration,
Lady Hugs
 
 



puella -> RE: Do slaves have the right to say no? (9/2/2006 8:29:11 AM)

woops!



MBear -> RE: Do slaves have the right to say no? (9/2/2006 8:47:49 AM)

I'll be to the point. When you have a slave they trust and respect you they also realize there will be pain espescialy when pushing limits but there is a differance in enjoyable pain and down right mean pain there is a thing called comonsence. I don't want to put my slave in jeapordy or my self in jail. Theres a fine line one crosses when not respecting your slaves "no". To put your most cherished property in harms way is inconceivable to me.  Yes she always has the choice to take her collar off and walk.                                        MBear



truesub4u -> RE: Do slaves have the right to say no? (9/2/2006 8:48:08 AM)

<fast reply>

OMG... sometimes you people tickle me too much.... "does a slave have the right to say no"... Damn right they do. Any one in a adult relationship... willining.... has the right to say no. Specially when limits.. ground rules.. what ever you want to call them are laid out from the start. The only slave who doesn't have the right to say no... or walk away.. is one who was taken and placed into slavery against their consent. Being  a slave in a BDSM  relationship doesn't mean you lose all rights. Doesn't mean you give up being human. Are there consequences to saying no... more likely there is in most relationships... but the rights are there still. To be exercised when you want to.




Homestead -> RE: Do slaves have the right to say no? (9/2/2006 8:50:38 AM)

I cover this quite adequately with my rule number one.

"protect the property, even if it is from me."



sadisticmaster11 -> RE: Do slaves have the right to say no? (9/2/2006 8:51:02 AM)

slaves have no rights, that is why they are slaves.



bluelace001 -> RE: Do slaves have the right to say no? (9/2/2006 8:52:47 AM)

Okay, i'm gonna put my two cents in.

I am a r/t slave in a 24/7 M/s relationship. It's not only Master's thoughts but the thoughts of the general community out here that one does not damage one's property. This goes for mental or physical.
Now as a slave in this relationship it is my responsiblity to let Master know when damage or possible damage is being done. This includes when he does anal with or without lube. We have phrases i am to use when i am not do not like something, but the decision is always his. Because a slave begs for a Dom to stop does not mean it's a no, it means something may be wrong. It's a dominants responsiility to not break his or her toy. It is also wise to enforce safewords and be clear that they are used only when needed. Example, yellow to slow down or temporarily stop a scene to let the dom know there is a potiential problem of injury. Red that injury is occuring, be it physical or mental. Regaurdless, if you break your toy, and do not listen to those please, you risk loosing your slave. We do have the right to walk, and what point is it to stay in a relationship that is dangerous to ones well being.? As for the slaves that think they have no rights, that is a myth. We are people not doormats. IF we are in a sitiation that puts us in danger and are with a dominant that does not care of the well being of thier property, we have the right to walk and never look back. There are dominants that would rather take care of thier slaves so they can repeatidly use them to thier hearts content in any manner that makes them happy without causing permanant damage.

Now for the slaves, calling red, or yellow because you don't like it, or because it's really not your thing is an abuse of the words. Your dom depends on you to be honest .If there really isn't damage happening,
and yes it hurts, i would suggest holding off on the safe word. We are after all there for our Dominants pleasure be it pain or not. It is up to us to let them know what we can withstand and not, it is up to them to make the choice if they want to push those limits or not.

Okay, i'm done with my little rant. (smiles) I just felt those issues might want to be addressed. (duckes now before i get flamed on this post..)
(goes to get second cup of coffee and finish waking up)

bluelace_001
<property of Viper_001>



thetammyjo -> RE: Do slaves have the right to say no? (9/2/2006 9:05:45 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yourkajira

In certain cases.

for example, you have a slave and you are interested in anal sex. you are not interested in lube, or whatever, and when you do (she obediently complies) the girl who has such a high pain tolerence begs you stop, because it hurts too much.Now, this is a girl who has been raped (on several different occurances) in the past and you know this. Do you tell her basically that she has no right to deny you something that you want, and do it anyway, especially if you are...um...well endowed and don't take it easy. So, do you stop or tell her to shut up?


Not respecting someone's hard limits (or soft limits in my opinion) isn't BDSM it is abuse, assult or rape.

Now someone may have negotiated and agreed that they don't have limits with a particular partner but I still think that any decent owner would listen to complaints and concerns and not just say "Shut up" and keep going.



Homestead -> RE: Do slaves have the right to say no? (9/2/2006 9:07:49 AM)

It's still all by consent of the bottom, and allowing onself to be afflicted with top's disease is always a pretty out of control thing to do. If a master cannot manage his own ego, having a slave is a bad idea.



Lordandmaster -> RE: Do slaves have the right to say no? (9/2/2006 9:13:58 AM)

There are different opinions about an owner's obligations, and I can see the logic behind various of view.  Societies that have tolerated slavery have dealt with the problem in all kinds of ways, ranging from the view that an owner has no obligations whatsoever, to the view that an owner has quite extensive and burdensome obligations.  My own view is that I consider the health and safety of my slave because I don't wish to damage my own property.  I wouldn't drive my car into a tree either.  That makes it less useful.

But the question of whether a slave has rights is simple.  No, a slave has no rights.

quote:

ORIGINAL: JustaDom

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Slaves have no rights.  If you have rights, you're not a slave.


Would you also make the argument that their owner has no obligations or responsibility at all in regards to their health and safety?



Adelphus -> RE: Do slaves have the right to say no? (9/2/2006 9:15:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yourkajira

quote:

ORIGINAL: JustaDom

Would you also make the argument that their owner has no obligations or responsibility at all in regards to their health and safety?

Joe



Isnt that the trade off? Obedience for the security of being cared for?

Bloody hell!
Okay, think of it this way, lovey. I watch Animal Planet quite a bit and they have this show, 'Animal Prescient' where the ASPCA goes out and investigates cases of animal abuse. I don't know much about Gorean philosophy, but if it's true you are a 'rightless' animal, wouldn't that put you in the realm of ASPCA standards?
Now granted I know there are many differences such as you made the choice yourself, D/s usually has some form of 'abuse' in it that would not be acceptable in true animal ownership, ect.
But think of it this way, what would you think of someone who beat their dog as opposed to someone who cared for it? Dogs, cats, birds, they are property but property with emotions. That puts a different angle on the ownership responsibility.
Dogs submit to their masters, want to please them in every way, live for their acceptance, even overlook a lot of mishandling, but mistreat an animal long enough and even they will turn. It is simply natural and perfectly rational
You're a living thing, dear. If he continues to forget this undeniable fact, find a Master that won't. In my opinion life is too short to waste on the incompetence of others and I am too valuable a piece of property to accept shoddy ownership.
Cheers, darling and do feel better.




mistoferin -> RE: Do slaves have the right to say no? (9/2/2006 9:16:47 AM)

fast reply...

Warning!!!!
Threads containing the words "slaves rights" or "no limits slaves" cause noticeable brain damage in otherwise intelligent people.

 

 



Lordandmaster -> RE: Do slaves have the right to say no? (9/2/2006 9:16:52 AM)

I don't think he meant to get into the question of "no limits" just because he used the word "limits."  In fact, I didn't see anything wrong with what he said.  Yes, an owner has the power to drive his car without oil in it, but only a stupid owner would do so.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

Do you drive your car without oil in it? While you have the right to do so that does not make it smart.

Same applies to any property, they all have limits of some sorts, Cars don't fly, Planes don't float, Hammers make lousy Pillows and vise versa. If you insist on using a piece of property in a manner beyond it's limits you are responsible for the damage.

LOL I  KNEW we'd be getting another "no limits" thread soon.



Homestead -> RE: Do slaves have the right to say no? (9/2/2006 9:19:25 AM)

The real issue here is simply insensitive management. Some men seem to feel they have the perogative to treat a human being any way they please. In the long run, they aquire bad reputations and toys become hard to find.



truesub4u -> RE: Do slaves have the right to say no? (9/2/2006 9:23:34 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

fast reply...

Warning!!!!
Threads containing the words "slaves rights" or "no limits slaves" cause noticeable brain damage in otherwise intelligent people.

 

 



LMAO.... good one mist... good one



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