the "Illusion factor" in bdsm makes it less "real". Discuss. (Full Version)

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SusanofO -> the "Illusion factor" in bdsm makes it less "real". Discuss. (9/3/2006 6:18:19 AM)

This is an off-shoot of the "How can anyone say they want to be Forced?" thread.
I guess after reading some really well-thought out posts in that thread, I kind of concluded that the entire basis of a D/s relationship is "wanting to be forced" or "asking to be forced" (for the submissive or slave anyway).

This does not in any way "ruin" the feelings of submissiveness that have resulted in a D/s relationship for me, though. I am fully aware that if I wasn't being submissive, I could refuse to do something commanded at any given point in time, or simply walk away, or ask for release, as could the Dominant or Master, But - that doesn't make the relationship any less "real" to me.

I know we've had this discussion before, at CM. 

**Question: Does the fact a D/s relationship is based on a power that has been created (or given) willingly, initially, by both parties lessen the "force" of that power - make it less "real" in terms of its emotional effects for the people involved?

Does this question matter, as long as everybody in the relationship is satisfied?

For me, I guess it does not. Although I suppose it coud depend, to some degree, on the particular person one is involved with,(in certain cases).

Any comments?


P.S. Starting this thread is in no way a slam to the person who started the "Forced!" thread. Because I think that's a great question and a great thread (if I didn't think so, I woud not be asking this question).

- Susan  [:)]



mstrjx -> RE: the "Illusion factor" in bdsm makes it less "real". Discuss. (9/3/2006 6:44:06 AM)

I'm going to take this from a chat I had this morning.

As a 'slave', your responsibilities (to an extent) are stripped from you.  Your insecurities are stripped from you.  Your fears are taken.  You have nothing.  Except, the thing you want.  Your servitude.  The pleasure and obedience you can offer to your owner.  You can easily be taken to the dark places of your soul because it's not your decision any longer.  Your fantasies can be ripped out of you and made to come to life.
 
Is this the sort of thing you mean?
 
Jeff



eyesopened -> RE: the "Illusion factor" in bdsm makes it less "real". Discuss. (9/3/2006 6:44:33 AM)

There are a lot of paradoxes in BDSM and D/s relationships.  How do i feel more freedom when securely bound?  How do i feel more empowered when i surrender?  We choose to give up control of ourselves to another and then we choose to obey because it is who we are. For me personally if a Dom isn't able to "force" me beyond my limitations then there isn't any growth for me and possibly not for Him either.



SusanofO -> RE: the "Illusion factor" in bdsm makes it less "real". Discuss. (9/3/2006 6:49:43 AM)

eyesopened: Great reply! Thanks.

mstrjx: Yes, that is what I mean. I do think the slave or submissive has responsibilities, though, the main one being pleasing and serving the Master or Dominant. Is this power over them an "illusion"? I guess my reaction is: So what if it is, if everybody's happy? But that's kind of dodging the question, I suppose. 

- Susan



mistoferin -> RE: the "Illusion factor" in bdsm makes it less "real". Discuss. (9/3/2006 6:52:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO
I kind of concluded that the entire basis of a D/s relationship is "wanting to be forced" or "asking to be forced" (for the submissive or slave anyway).


While that may be true for some, it certainly isn't true for all. I have no desire to be forced. My submission simply is. I have a desire to serve and be pleasing...that desire comes from deep within me and is not something that requires force.

quote:


**Question: Does the fact a D/s relationship is based on a power that has been created (or given) willingly, initially, by both parties lessen the "force" of that power - make it less "real" in terms of its emotional effects for the people involved?


My D/s relationships are not based on a created or given power...they are based on a power that simply "is". Not an illusion, not a prediscussed arrangement...a person simply has power that inspires my submission....or they don't. It's not a roleplaying game that I am playing, I am simply living my life as I am. The only partner that will work for me is someone who is living his life as he is. That does make finding a partner a bit more difficult in this arena today as most people here seem to think that they have to "play" a role instead of just being.



Bearlee -> RE: the "Illusion factor" in bdsm makes it less "real". Discuss. (9/3/2006 6:53:19 AM)

 

"The intentional suspension of reality"
 
...isn't there a famous statement sorta like that?



SusanofO -> RE: the "Illusion factor" in bdsm makes it less "real". Discuss. (9/3/2006 6:56:39 AM)

mistoferin: Well, okay, then can you go have as "equally satisfying" a relationship with a man who is not a Dominant? Why not? Or why? Being with a non-Dominant man won't change what you are, will it?

- Susan



Jasmyn -> RE: the "Illusion factor" in bdsm makes it less "real". Discuss. (9/3/2006 6:57:51 AM)

Nice answer eyesopened [:)]



krikket -> RE: the "Illusion factor" in bdsm makes it less "real". Discuss. (9/3/2006 7:00:56 AM)

The idea of "being forced", in a bdsm/D/s, M/s manner has been something i could see in two different events.  The first was when consent is given, and then there's a role play event, that may or may not be something that's "scheduled"...just have to make sure the cops aren't aware of it..lol.

The second i think can have a more emotional impact, at least imho.  It goes back to the old 'nilla days of "not tonight dear, i have a headache", to which the Dom/Master laughs (or not..lol) takes control of the sub/slave and what ever event he/she wanted is done anyway.  From talking with others, i've gotten the impression that this is more M/s than most other dynamics, but i can imagine it happening in any relationship where the agreement is that the Dom/Master sets the rules, and the sub/slave agrees to please her partner regardless of her/his feelings.

As Susan asked

quote:

**Question: Does the fact a D/s relationship is based on a power that has been created (or given) willingly, initially, by both parties lessen the "force" of that power - make it less "real" in terms of its emotional effects for the people involved?
Does this question matter, as long as everybody in the relationship is satisfied?


i believe that your original question is one that should probably be talked about over and over and over again, if not before, certainly in the early days of a relationship.  This isn't a situation that i, personally, would want to have any misunderstandings about.    Imho, the only thing that matters is that once a couple has reached a consensus that keeps them satisfied and happy, nothing else matters.

Just my penny's worth..

Happy Sunday y'all
jimini

Edited to add:  In my past relationship, what and how i felt were important  to him, yet it was my Master who made the ultimate decisions.   i willing (not tolerated) accepted those decisions because it pleased him, and that was just how it was supposed to be.  It's the type of relationship i needed and we both agreed to, with my heart, as well as my head.

huggles



MrDiscipline44 -> RE: the "Illusion factor" in bdsm makes it less "real". Discuss. (9/3/2006 7:08:09 AM)

I think erin and I have the same view on this. I don't don't feel I should have to "force" my will always on someone. I, as the D, am in control always and what I say is what is done. For me it is a smoother dynamic when everyone knows and accepts there place within the it. This is the reason why I don't look for a brat, a bitch or someone that needs "proof" that I'm Dominant enough. You'll knotice that those are the types of people always searching for a Dom as well.



mistoferin -> RE: the "Illusion factor" in bdsm makes it less "real". Discuss. (9/3/2006 7:11:45 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO
mistoferin: Well, okay, then can you go have as "equally satisfying" a relationship with a man who is not a Dominant? Why not? Or why? Being with a non-Dominant man won't change what you are, will it?


While I could certainly be in a relationship with a non-Dominant man....no, it would not be a satisfying relationship for me as a non-Dominant man would not have the make-up that inspires me. My criteria of what constitutes Dominance though, may be very different from many here. I don't view a man as Dominant based upon the fact that he calls himself such, whether or not he is listed on a BDSM website, he has read at least 5 BDSM books and knows how to weild a whip. To me...ALL of that....is pomp and circumstance and does not a Dominant make. Dominant to me is about who he is as a human being.



Homestead -> RE: the "Illusion factor" in bdsm makes it less "real". Discuss. (9/3/2006 7:16:33 AM)

While I realize that I have no real power in this, I do have real choices. Especially in who I become involved with. I have the choice to say "My way or the highway" and face the consequences of that choice.

I can say "I like these sorts of kinks, and these sorts of behaviors..And if you want to be with me, you WILL submit to them." So it's not REALLY an illusion. Someone made a choice to do things my way-because they also fit well enough with HER way-even if some of what I asked was a bit too much for her.



SusanofO -> RE: the "Illusion factor" in bdsm makes it less "real". Discuss. (9/3/2006 7:18:30 AM)

Thnaks for the replies, people.

Mr Discipline: I understand what you're saying, but - *maybe I should clarify this - In my original post for this thread, I wasn't really referring to what are known as "brats". I guess I am thinking the entire D/s relationship is based on the notion that one person is giving up their power, and the other person is going to have control. However this plays out between people, I am asking does the fact this imbalance of power is an "illusion" and a (willingly entered into) construct lessen the emotional benefits for the people involved at all?

Because almost every time I run across this thought, I ask myself: What partnering relationship isn't based on an illsuion, to some degree, bdsm or not?  The insinuation that accompanies this question seems to be that this imbalance of power, because it's voluntary, somehow makes the relationship inherently less viable or even bad. I just don't see why that would be true, unless the people in it were otherwise somehow pathologically personality-disordered, or something.

- Susan



eyesopened -> RE: the "Illusion factor" in bdsm makes it less "real". Discuss. (9/3/2006 7:20:53 AM)

i'm wondering if there isn't a difference in the definition of "force" here?  Force doesn't need to mean physical or even verbal but in many cases just the presence of power and the feelings that invokes.  When i think about the times i have been "forced" beyond my limitations i think of it something like taking the dog to the vet when it doesn't really want to go.  But i will admit to being a novice and since i have never been in a committed relationship i'm sure my perceptions may be flawed.



SusanofO -> RE: the "Illusion factor" in bdsm makes it less "real". Discuss. (9/3/2006 7:26:30 AM)

eyeopened: By "force" I am referring to the fact that someone is willingly engaging in a relationship in which they will be giving up their power to make many, if not all, decisions (the submissive or slave). If someone did not have a "desire to be forced" (to me) they would not seek the feelings of submission that accompany such a relationship by engaging in it. They'd simply be in a vanilla relationship, instead. If they claim to be a submissive or a slave they have already "asked to be forced" (in my view). Otherwise, what or who are they submitting to? If you're not being dominated, then you're not submitting - to anything or anyone. But initially at least, that agreement is consensual (my opinion only).

That's all I mean by "asking to be forced". For me, this doesn't make the relationship "less real".  It makes is about as "real" as any other relationship, and - with some of the feelings that can result, sometimes I think there can be more capacity for intimacy in a bdsm relationship, and that intimacy can be very "real". 

- Susan



mistoferin -> RE: the "Illusion factor" in bdsm makes it less "real". Discuss. (9/3/2006 7:44:30 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO
By "force" I am referring to the fact that someone is willingly engaging in a relationship in which they will be giving up their power to make many, if not all, decisions (the submissive). If someone did not have a "desire to be forced" (to me) they would not seek the feelings of submkission that accompany such a relationship by engagin in it. They'd simply be in a vanilla relationship, instead.


I really hesitate to say what I am about to say for fear that it will be taken the wrong way...especially by those who are new....but I don't have discussions about consent and what "power" I am going to give up. To me, a D/s relationship is a natural progression. It is two people living life day by day, moment by moment. Like two rivers that meet...there is progression and growth....and fluctuation. There are some spots where that river will be wide and deep, and there will be some spots where it narrows. Some days my river will contribute copious volumes, other days less depending upon the source....and vice versa. So long as that river keeps moving forward as one unit and it's level is appropriate for it's banks, we simply go with the flow.



SusanofO -> RE: the "Illusion factor" in bdsm makes it less "real". Discuss. (9/3/2006 7:50:03 AM)

mistoerin: Okay. But the fact that you're engaging in that relationship with a Domnant, vs. a "vanilla" guy, says something, doesn't it,? And, in your relationships that are D/s oriented, (no matter how they evolve), because they are D/s relationships, you're still giving up some power to make decisions, are you not? Does this them "less real" to you, as far as evoking feelings, than non-D/s relationships do? 

- Susan



mistoferin -> RE: the "Illusion factor" in bdsm makes it less "real". Discuss. (9/3/2006 7:57:31 AM)

Well of course I do....and no it doesn't make anything less real...actually Susan, I'm not sure I see how it could.



SusanofO -> RE: the "Illusion factor" in bdsm makes it less "real". Discuss. (9/3/2006 8:00:33 AM)

misoferin: Thank you. That's what I mean. I don't either. But I see people say this, sometimes, when they say "It's all fantasy, face it", and similar remarks. Well, maybe so. But - so what? It's still a relationship, as viable as any other. Obviously many people enjoy the "illsuion", because there are many folks who enjoy bdsm and D/s and M/s relationships.

- Susan



Homestead -> RE: the "Illusion factor" in bdsm makes it less "real". Discuss. (9/3/2006 8:03:37 AM)

Susan, the art of d/s is making the illusion SEEM like reality-even if the surrounding culture does not support it.

Or in SPITE of that. [:D]



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