RE: the "Illusion factor" in bdsm makes it less "real". Discuss.

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All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> General BDSM Discussion >> RE: the "Illusion factor" in bdsm makes it less "real". Discuss.

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RE: the "Illusion factor" in bdsm makes it le... - 9/3/2006 8:11:41 AM

SusanofO

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I agree. I think. What people never ever discuss is what "reality" actually is, when I see people say things like this. As if anyone can define it. I can't. I tend to live in the fifth dimension sometimes, though, hehe.

(but, who's counting, right?)

- Susan

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to Homestead)

Post #: 21

RE: the "Illusion factor" in bdsm makes it le... - 9/3/2006 8:37:24 AM

popeye1250

Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline

Susan, a sub or slave "wants" to serve.
If they enjoy serving their Dom or Master continuation of that service is contingent on rendering more service to their Dom or Master in a satisfactory manor for the relationship to continue.
I don't see any "force" being used at all.
Either party may "opt out" at any time.
And like you said there may be an element of illusion but if it makes the two people happy where's the "problem?"
I enjoy and appreciate service from a sub/slave every bit as much as they like to give said service!
So, as much as it may be arousing to the sub/slave it is also arousing to me. A symbiotic relationship!

(in reply to SusanofO)

Post #: 22

RE: the "Illusion factor" in bdsm makes it le... - 9/3/2006 8:40:18 AM

SusanofO

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Thanks for the reply, popeye.

- Susan

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to popeye1250)

Post #: 23

RE: the "Illusion factor" in bdsm makes it le... - 9/3/2006 9:03:36 AM

mistoferin

Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
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I guess maybe I'm just having a "duh" moment...but I really am not comprehending where there is a fantasy or illusion element at all.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to SusanofO)

Post #: 24

RE: the "Illusion factor" in bdsm makes it le... - 9/3/2006 9:10:26 AM

SusanofO

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Joined: 12/19/2005
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Well, some people think there is because a bdsm relationship involves the construct of very distinctly demarcated "roles".
But, I say - so what? Every relationship, I think, involves some degree of expectations, at least -whether they are overt or covert.

So, I end up thinking that people who say things like "bdsm is all fantasy" just either are just 1) Killjoys or 2) Have a need to point out their version of "reality" to others and want or expect everyone to believe their philosophy (as if one, and only one, exists in the world that will allow people to live happily) or 3) Haven't really enjoyed being in one, or had one "go bad". 4) Think "fantasy" is a bad thing (is it? I never thought so). But that may be predjudice in my part. Or, I may be misinterpeting what I read when I see posts from people who say things ike this. But some have been pretty vehement (but they were a long time ago).

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 9/3/2006 9:48:16 AM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to mistoferin)

Post #: 25

RE: the "Illusion factor" in bdsm makes it le... - 9/3/2006 9:25:26 AM

mistoferin

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Joined: 10/27/2004
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Well I think that the reason so many relationships fail in WIITWD is BECAUSE there are many people who view this as a fantasy....one that they are trying desperately to fulfill....because for so many taking and giving IS only an illusion that they partake in when it's convenient for them. It's not about who they are...it's about something they stumbled across that they thought was "hot" and thought they'd like to try out. They are trying to force their relationships into the model BDSM relationship box instead of just being two(or more) people who are what they are, who come together to live a life and progress naturally. They sit down and say...okay...these are going to be the rules because I read on some website somewhere that these are the rules for a relationship in WIITWD...and they want it all to be defined from the moment they hook up instead of having the patience to allow it to grow from seed into a full and thriving plant.

< Message edited by mistoferin -- 9/3/2006 9:26:03 AM >

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to SusanofO)

Post #: 26

RE: the "Illusion factor" in bdsm makes it le... - 9/3/2006 9:30:19 AM

SusanofO

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Joined: 12/19/2005
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mistoferin: I agree with the gist of what you're saying. There are people who are simply relationship-impaired, and sometimes I think the strict role demarcation may lead some folks to believe that a D/s or M/s relationship will allow them to circumvent that, because from day one, the other person will simply do as they say, with no trust having to be earned, or given, on their part.
Which of course isn't true.

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 9/3/2006 9:49:00 AM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to mistoferin)

Post #: 27

RE: the "Illusion factor" in bdsm makes it le... - 9/3/2006 9:45:49 AM

popeye1250

Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

Well I think that the reason so many relationships fail in WIITWD is BECAUSE there are many people who view this as a fantasy....one that they are trying desperately to fulfill....because for so many taking and giving IS only an illusion that they partake in when it's convenient for them. It's not about who they are...it's about something they stumbled across that they thought was "hot" and thought they'd like to try out. They are trying to force their relationships into the model BDSM relationship box instead of just being two(or more) people who are what they are, who come together to live a life and progress naturally. They sit down and say...okay...these are going to be the rules because I read on some website somewhere that these are the rules for a relationship in WIITWD...and they want it all to be defined from the moment they hook up instead of having the patience to allow it to grow from seed into a full and thriving plant.

Mistoferin, well said! I agree with you about not setting up all these rules from the start.
I think it's much better to make them as you go along so that you can "fine tune" them.

(in reply to mistoferin)

Post #: 28

RE: the "Illusion factor" in bdsm makes it le... - 9/3/2006 10:25:28 AM

twicehappy

Posts: 2706
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

I kind of concluded that the entire basis of a D/s relationship is "wanting to be forced" or "asking to be forced" (for the submissive or slave anyway).

**Question: Does the fact a D/s relationship is based on a power that has been created (or given) willingly, initially, by both parties lessen the "force" of that power - make it less "real" in terms of its emotional effects for the people involved?

Not for me, my submission CANNOT be forced, it can only be offered in love. I can honestly say neither Scooter nor Jewel has ever forced me to do anything; i do whatever out of love, the love that only comes from me in submission.

I think a D/s or in our case M/M/s relationship can only have that ultimate power exchange if it is entered into willingly. This kind of submission comes from within, not from exterior force.

Rather, to me at least, one that has to be forced has little if any chance of surviving the long run. If it is not done willingly and from the heart, what is the point?

Maybe this is why i am really bad at rape play etc, i am only too willing and that fact is too obvious.

_____________________________

Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations.

The human heart is not a finite container but an ever expanding universe with all the stars contained there in.

(in reply to SusanofO)

Post #: 29

RE: the "Illusion factor" in bdsm makes it le... - 9/3/2006 10:28:36 AM

Lordandmaster

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Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline

No.

Today's theme of the day seems to be "Are we all really just play-acting?"

It's not play, people.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

Question: Does the fact a D/s relationship is based on a power that has been created (or given) willingly, initially, by both parties lessen the "force" of that power - make it less "real" in terms of its emotional effects for the people involved?

(in reply to SusanofO)

Post #: 30

RE: the "Illusion factor" in bdsm makes it le... - 9/3/2006 10:29:18 AM

SusanofO

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Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline

I appreciate your reply very much, twicehappy. Thanks.

- Susan

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to twicehappy)

Post #: 31

RE: the "Illusion factor" in bdsm makes it le... - 9/3/2006 5:38:15 PM

porcelaine

Posts: 5020
Joined: 7/24/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

**Question: Does the fact a D/s relationship is based on a power that has been created (or given) willingly, initially, by both parties lessen the "force" of that power - make it less "real" in terms of its emotional effects for the people involved?

Does this question matter, as long as everybody in the relationship is satisfied?

I would hope my relationship would be founded on something far greater than a power exchange and the mutual give and take of control is merely one aspect of the way we've chosen to relate.

porcelaine

_____________________________

His will; my fate.

(in reply to SusanofO)

Post #: 32

RE: the "Illusion factor" in bdsm makes it le... - 9/3/2006 5:39:41 PM

Homestead

Posts: 1005
Status: offline

Things without a firm foundation never stand for long.

(in reply to porcelaine)

Post #: 33

RE: the "Illusion factor" in bdsm makes it le... - 9/3/2006 5:54:42 PM

RebelMaleSub

Posts: 2
Joined: 9/2/2006
Status: offline

It should make it less real to you because it is, in fact, not real at all.

I typically trick Dommes I have served in the past into making me do something I pretended to not want to do, but in fact, very much wanted to do in the first place. I would never do anything I did not really want to do - and I don't care what she says about it.

So you want me, your slave, to paint your house……….LOL - never going to happen. That would be too much work for me with no payback.

That is what all "submissive's " do ,in one form or another. The entire "lifestyle" is just a game and not a lifestyle at all.

(in reply to SusanofO)

Post #: 34

RE: the "Illusion factor" in bdsm makes it le... - 9/4/2006 11:07:30 AM

KnightofMists

Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

Dominant to me is about who he is as a human being.

It's just part of His character and personality that inspires your own submissive character and personality?

If the answer is yes..... How long would you say that it takes before you find His character and personality inspiring your own intrinsic nature? Would it be neccessary to have theses interactions on a face to face level or have you found yourself inspired in the observation and interactions in an online environment? If yes, do you not need the face to face to validate your judgement?

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to mistoferin)

Post #: 35

RE: the "Illusion factor" in bdsm makes it le... - 9/4/2006 11:18:29 AM

KnightofMists

Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO
I guess I am thinking the entire D/s relationship is based on the notion that one person is giving up their power, and the other person is going to have control.

Susan... I think this comment above is the issue.

You seem to equate giving up Power is a requirement for a D/s Relationship. I suppose for many they state this common BDSM Dogma..... something that I myself never agreed with and likely relates to the illusionary aspect you refer to.

I don't feel that Power is given up in the D/s or M/s dynamic. In fact... I feel that the individual power is never given up... but it is enhanced. I feel that the term of Power Exchange is a romantic and highly illusionary concept.... personally I view the D/s or M/s Dynamics as a Power Enhancement Relationship.

As erin states... We are who we are.. we don't roleplay ourselves to be in the dynamics that we choose to be in. I am who I am... my girls are who they are.... we fit together because our character and personality go together like jam and peanut butter. The jam is all by itself complete and whole and has it's own individuality... just like the peanut butter... but when put together an entirely new identity and power is evolved. A Power that is built on the melding of two seperate powers. To often I see some that are jam and say that they become the peanut butter because the peanut butter has the authority and power. Well you can call yourself peanut butter all you want... but the truth is.. you are have a self that is not peanut butter. Some are rather content in their illusions...until troubled waters occurs

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to SusanofO)

Post #: 36

RE: the "Illusion factor" in bdsm makes it le... - 9/4/2006 11:18:56 AM

Lordandmaster

Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline

Ohhhh...a Tao-te ching quote!

You and I need to talk one day, Homestead. We seem to have a lot in common.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Homestead

Things without a firm foundation never stand for long.

(in reply to Homestead)

Post #: 37

RE: the "Illusion factor" in bdsm makes it le... - 9/4/2006 12:00:41 PM

Homestead

Posts: 1005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Ohhhh...a Tao-te ching quote!

You and I need to talk one day, Homestead. We seem to have a lot in common.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Homestead

Things without a firm foundation never stand for long.

A what quote? It's simply something that anyone who has built something solid would say.

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

Post #: 38

RE: the "Illusion factor" in bdsm makes it le... - 9/4/2006 2:53:30 PM

Lordandmaster

Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline

Check out Lao-tzu 54.

(in reply to Homestead)

Post #: 39

RE: the "Illusion factor" in bdsm makes it le... - 9/4/2006 4:25:11 PM

Celeste43

Posts: 3066
Joined: 2/4/2006
From: NYS
Status: offline

When people try to force me to do things I'm opposed to, I dig in my heels. With him, I'm happy to comply to the best of my abilities because I trust him, I love him, I respect him and because his natural dominance and my natural submission fit together hand in glove. He doesn't force me when something's too tough for me, he'll help me figure out what the problem is and how to get beyond it. And if I can't immediately, he'll drop it for a while so I can process it.

But I don't feel that I'm creating power to give to him. When he takes things over from me, he frees me from a burden. Because power to me carries enormous responsibility with it and quite honestly, that to me is a burden. He simply can manage it better. I give him what is part of me and he uses it for both of our good.

(in reply to Homestead)

Post #: 40

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