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RE: 'CROCODILE HUNTER' CELEBRITY KILLED BY STING RAY - 9/4/2006 11:32:04 PM   
Lordandmaster


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It really does seem like a freak accident in that case.  I was actually within inches of a stingray just this past week and never thought for a second that it could kill me.

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RE: 'CROCODILE HUNTER' CELEBRITY KILLED BY STING RAY - 9/5/2006 12:02:34 AM   
IronBear


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Newsflash::: Subject:::: L a M.

Having discussed this matter LaM after reading your post it is the majority opinion of several erstwhile and learned gentlemen that you are considered too ornery to be attacked my a stingray and killed. Worst case senario would be a serious and extremely painfull wound taking months to heal and could require surgery (I could lead the surgical team if I can find the angel grinder and arc welder)

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RE: 'CROCODILE HUNTER' CELEBRITY KILLED BY STING RAY - 9/5/2006 3:29:47 AM   
cuddleheart50


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All I know is, Steve will be sadly missed by this family.

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RE: 'CROCODILE HUNTER' CELEBRITY KILLED BY STING RAY - 9/5/2006 12:46:09 PM   
Lordandmaster


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I just read that he pulled the stinger out of his chest just before losing consciousness, and that probably caused more damage than the sting itself.

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RE: 'CROCODILE HUNTER' CELEBRITY KILLED BY STING RAY - 9/5/2006 8:39:54 PM   
FangsNfeet


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

I just read that he pulled the stinger out of his chest just before losing consciousness, and that probably caused more damage than the sting itself.


According to the news, Steves family will be releasing the film that caught the incident. The police department is only tieing up a few loose ends before the footage is offically released to the media.

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RE: 'CROCODILE HUNTER' CELEBRITY KILLED BY STING RAY - 9/5/2006 8:46:55 PM   
Najakcharmer


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Fast reply:

1.  The venom is quite respectably potent.  See this article on ray envenomation: http://www.potamotrygon.de/fremdes/stingray%20article.htm

2.  Probable mechanism of death due to the timing  = cardiac tamponade. 

3.  Exit wounds are pretty ugly when we're talking about a 20 to 30 centimeter serrated spike, but the entry wound complete with direct injection of venom into the heart wouldn't have been a picnic either, and may not have been survivable in any case.  Read the above referenced article. 

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RE: 'CROCODILE HUNTER' CELEBRITY KILLED BY STING RAY - 9/5/2006 9:27:38 PM   
Lordandmaster


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Interesting article.  Makes me wonder why they had stingrays swimming around in open tanks in that aquarium last week.

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RE: 'CROCODILE HUNTER' CELEBRITY KILLED BY STING RAY - 9/5/2006 9:48:22 PM   
Najakcharmer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Interesting article.  Makes me wonder why they had stingrays swimming around in open tanks in that aquarium last week.


Because they have their barbs clipped.  It's not even an inhumane thing to do to them, as it's the equivalent of trimming your fingernails or clipping a bird's claws.

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RE: 'CROCODILE HUNTER' CELEBRITY KILLED BY STING RAY - 9/6/2006 5:25:42 PM   
LTRsubNW


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quote:

ORIGINAL: IronBear

Are you so perfect ...


Yes, but I'd appreciate it if you don't point that out in front of so many people.

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RE: 'CROCODILE HUNTER' CELEBRITY KILLED BY STING RAY - 9/6/2006 6:09:36 PM   
Lordandmaster


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Hmm...how do they catch the stingrays in order to clip their barbs?  Do they anaesthetize them?

It's all very interesting.  I definitely underestimated how nasty a stingray attack could be.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Najakcharmer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Interesting article.  Makes me wonder why they had stingrays swimming around in open tanks in that aquarium last week.


Because they have their barbs clipped.  It's not even an inhumane thing to do to them, as it's the equivalent of trimming your fingernails or clipping a bird's claws.

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RE: 'CROCODILE HUNTER' CELEBRITY KILLED BY STING RAY - 9/6/2006 6:12:36 PM   
mnottertail


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Lam, you're the kinda guy would know this offhand, does anybody eat stingray?


Ron


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RE: 'CROCODILE HUNTER' CELEBRITY KILLED BY STING RAY - 9/6/2006 6:15:50 PM   
Lordandmaster


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Yup:

http://fooddownunder.com/cgi-bin/search.cgi?q=stingray

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RE: 'CROCODILE HUNTER' CELEBRITY KILLED BY STING RAY - 9/6/2006 6:47:03 PM   
mnottertail


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So, I would imagine there are people handling the shit out of these all the time, getting them to market, even more freaky of an accident.

Ron


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RE: 'CROCODILE HUNTER' CELEBRITY KILLED BY STING RAY - 9/6/2006 8:13:47 PM   
Najakcharmer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster
Hmm...how do they catch the stingrays in order to clip their barbs?  Do they anaesthetize them?


No, it's not necessary.  The biomechanics of a stingray's range of motion are such that avoiding a tail whack is not at all difficult especially if you are handling the animal while it is in shallow water and you are not in the water.  Reaching down to snip the barb is neither difficult nor particularly risky, especially since they are basically placid animals that are quite difficult to annoy.  Now, swimming in shallow water a few feet above a very large bull ray while somebody else boxes it in with a camera, that can be risky.  A wild animal that feels trapped is quite likely to lash out.

They can't voluntarily do much with their tails except direct them up and forward with tremendous power.  If you happen to have a part of your body in just the right place, or should I say just the wrong place, you're fucked when they do their thing.  Think of a medieval catapault.  It pulls back, it snaps forward, that's all it does. If you're at any kind of reasonable distance, you're fine.  If you're positioned with your body directly above the tail when the animal is spooked by your approach, you're going to sprout holes. 


quote:

It's all very interesting.  I definitely underestimated how nasty a stingray attack could be.


Attack is very much the wrong word to use in this context.  

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RE: 'CROCODILE HUNTER' CELEBRITY KILLED BY STING RAY - 9/6/2006 8:25:28 PM   
Najakcharmer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail
So, I would imagine there are people handling the shit out of these all the time, getting them to market, even more freaky of an accident.


Yep, and there are people getting envenomated all the time by rays.  It's not usually fatal but it is highly unpleasant, reported to be the single most painful type of envenomation in the world of interesting biotoxins.  The rare fatalities tend to occur by mechanism of sheer physical trauma with the larger specimens, as the barbs of the larger animals are comparable to serrated steak knives and are slammed in with tremendous force.  Also, a necrotizing envenomation directly into the body cavity or into internal organs doesn't exactly do a body good.  But the typical stingray injury is unlikely to be fatal, particularly from the smaller species.


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RE: 'CROCODILE HUNTER' CELEBRITY KILLED BY STING RAY - 9/6/2006 8:47:44 PM   
mnottertail


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Yeah, we got bullheads up here with the same fuckin' gear but it is on their face...............huge owies.

I mean freakier than RicK James, goddammit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

I would have not considered what he did a risk at all.

But, who can chooe the time, place or method?


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RE: 'CROCODILE HUNTER' CELEBRITY KILLED BY STING RAY - 9/6/2006 8:49:59 PM   
Lordandmaster


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Ehh, I don't know about that.  Yeah, the animal felt threatened, was defending itself; that was its instinctive reaction.  I understand all that.  If you think of "attack" as a word with moral connotations, then OK, this wasn't an attack; if it just means "using a weapon to cause damage," then I don't see what's wrong with calling it an attack.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Najakcharmer

quote:

It's all very interesting.  I definitely underestimated how nasty a stingray attack could be.


Attack is very much the wrong word to use in this context.  

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RE: 'CROCODILE HUNTER' CELEBRITY KILLED BY STING RAY - 9/6/2006 9:10:33 PM   
NastyDaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Lam, you're the kinda guy would know this offhand, does anybody eat stingray?


Ron


The fact is that you may have eaten stingray or skates without even knowing it. Often when scallops are in short supply they are supplemented with ray/skate wing plugs... tapping a hollow pipe into the wings, then pull off the skin and seperate the two "plugs" and you have psuedo-scallops.



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RE: 'CROCODILE HUNTER' CELEBRITY KILLED BY STING RAY - 9/6/2006 9:12:12 PM   
Najakcharmer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Ehh, I don't know about that.  Yeah, the animal felt threatened, was defending itself; that was its instinctive reaction.  I understand all that.  If you think of "attack" as a word with moral connotations, then OK, this wasn't an attack; if it just means "using a weapon to cause damage," then I don't see what's wrong with calling it an attack.


I think that the word gives a connotation and a context for the animal's behavior that is misleading, perhaps dangerously so.

I hear people claim all the time that a snake "attacked" them.  When I ask, "What were you doing at the time?" the answer is generally something like, "I was beating the snake with a stick to try to kill it, and it ATTACKED me."   These people are totally convinced of their own innocence and righteousness.  They aren't to blame at all, no sirree.  The fact is that if they had simply refrained from attacking or closely approaching the animal, no one at all would have gotten hurt. But you can't convince most people of that, so they continue to deliberately initiate encounters with wildlife that both humans and animals are the worse off for. 

As Samuel L Jackson puts it in a different context, I am motherfucking sick of snakes on a plane.  More specifically, I am sick of the constant media hype about how aggressive and dangerous wild animals are, and how likely they are to "attack" people.  In the majority of recorded encounters between humans and wildlife in North America that have resulted in injury or death, the human deliberately initiated the encounter.  In short, the human is far more frequently the attacker or the aggressor when it comes to wildlife encounters, and it is both unfair and dangerously misleading to believe otherwise.  In some other countries these statistics get skewed because we have people living in much closer proximity to the animals, and more genuinely accidental encounters.  These accidental encounters still don't usually qualify as "wild animal deliberately attacking human", but tend to be more on the order of "oops, I stepped on it barefoot".

Leave the wildlife alone and it will leave you alone.  It is comparatively rare for a wild animal to initiate an encounter of any kind with a human, since we don't match the criteria for being prey for most species.  There are a few exceptions among the big carnivores and with human habituated, semi-domesticated or feral animals.  But as a general rule, if you behave yourself calmly and rationally and avoid attacking or closely approaching the animals, you are in considerably less danger walking quietly among so-called dangerous wild animals than you are in a dubious neighborhood in New York.  Wild animals very rarely attack people.  People very frequently attack or harrass wild animals, which inevitably leads to a defensive response.  If more folks realized that basic truth, fewer people as well as animals would get hurt.

< Message edited by Najakcharmer -- 9/6/2006 9:16:28 PM >

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RE: 'CROCODILE HUNTER' CELEBRITY KILLED BY STING RAY - 9/6/2006 9:23:04 PM   
Najakcharmer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail
I would have not considered what he did a risk at all.


What he did was very clearly advised against by all the well understood and widely published professional guidelines of working with these animals.  But that isn't really much of a surprise, is it?

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