On limits & obedience (Full Version)

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cherylann -> On limits & obedience (9/5/2006 4:33:15 AM)

Pardon my inexperience, as I am still very new to the lifestyle. I dont quite know how to phrase this, so I will just put it forward as best I can.

I was wondering about limits in the relationship. Most people talk about things in terms of agreed limits that one does not violate in a relationship, and I understand that. Still, it seems to me that there would be three catagories to consider. There are the things the submissive enjoys, and are really a reward (even if a form of punishment) for the sub when they happen. They can be a fun activity that both enjoy regularly, or a special reward for the sub. Then there are things the sub doesnt like to do but doesnt reach thier limits, which can be thier Master/Mistress having fun and/or a way to punish the sub for bad behavior. Finally there are things that are beyond one or both parties limits. While I think it can be interesting to test a persons limits, I would imagine its usually done with consent and as a form of exploring and not a reward/punishment.

Personally I consider the wishes of the sub to be wholly subservient to those of the Dom/me, excepting those things a sub cannot accept doing. I would think a M/s relationship typically involves giving up all your limits and accepting all of your Master or Mistress's wishes. What I guess I am trying to ask is what is your take on limits and obeying even when you truely dont enjoy doing so. I imagine the pleasure of obedience is truely felt when one obeys irregardless of one's own feelings.


ever kneeling,
cheryl-ann



MissTlTTYMilk -> RE: On limits & obedience (9/5/2006 4:56:54 AM)

You seem to have your BDSM termnology defined above about what you feel is acceptable and not acceptable regarding limits. It is good that you have idea to have your own view on things. You may find that many people offering advice define things differently which might be confusing. I included below some BDSM terms from Wikipedia that may be helpful to you.

Safeword - When a participant utters a safeword, BDSM activity stops.

submissive, or "sub" for short. Person that gives up control either all the time or only during a scene

Slave: Person who gives up a great degree of control in an ongoing D/s relationship, sometimes with few remaining limits. Often those who identify as "slave" have a great desire for being of service to their dominant, sometimes referred to as "service-oriented submission."

Hard limits: What someone absolutely will not do, usually non-negotiable.

Soft Limits: Something that someone is hesitant to do or nervous to try. They can sometimes be talked into the activity, or preferably it may be negotiated at a trial or beginner level into a scene.

Consent: Mutual agreement to the terms of a scene or ongoing bdsm relationship.

Consensual non-consensuality: A mutual agreement that within defined limits, or subject to a safe word or other restrictions, and commonsense, consent will be given as read without foreknowledge of the exact actions planned. As such, it is a show of trust and understanding and usually undertaken only by partners who know each other well, or otherwise agree to set clear safe limits on their activities.

for more Wikipedia BDSM terms: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossary_of_BDSM_terms



mstrjx -> RE: On limits & obedience (9/5/2006 4:57:15 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cherylann

What I guess I am trying to ask is what is your take on limits and obeying even when you truely dont enjoy doing so. I imagine the pleasure of obedience is truely felt when one obeys irregardless of one's own feelings.


If you, kneeling, don't enjoy (from what I understand) obedience, then what left is there?  To be a bottom (an object during painplay)?  How do you define your own submission?

When your 'own feelings' are directed towards the Dom(me)/Master/Mistress and not yourself, then this is where your subservience begins.  Have you not been able to attain this?

Jeff



MistressTheaZ -> RE: On limits & obedience (9/5/2006 5:35:58 AM)

Hi cherylann,

Welcome, and interesting question, indeed.

I think it is good advice to really think about what your submission means to you, (written above.) You wrote that the you felt the pleasure of obedience is not felt more than when the submissive goes beyond their own wants and desires and obeys to please their Dominant, and this is a good place to start, most definitely.

For Me personally, (JMO), I feel that your Dominant is your guide, your teacher, your friend, and your partner through exploring all aspects of D/s: mental, emotional and physical. The foundation of trust and mutual caring between you provides for the submissive to learn and grow through the Dominant's teachings, learning more about themselves as they learn how to best satisfy and serve according to their Dominant's wants, needs and desires.

Is it about you? No. That said, you are always a person, and your own wants, needs, desires, fears and hopes should always be considered and weighed accordingly. A good Dominant will want to know you, thoroughly and implicitly, and will ask you to reach within yourself to explore the parts of yourself that even you do not yet know. Building your strengths and exposing your weaknesses to enable them to also be made into strengths makes for a fulfilled, happy and healthy partner, friend and submissive.

I tend to think there are elements to compatibility that apply to any relationship, D/s or otherwise. As a Sadistic Dominant, I tend to attract submissives who mirror My own interests and style, and certainly I would carefully consider the compatibility of Our respective limits, interests and hopes going forward. I'd think it short-sighted not to do so. I'd look for someone whom I could engage on multiple levels - personally and within play - as, ideally, it is truly the person as a whole who attracts Me and holds My interest, not their list of do's or do not's.

Overall, I think there is less focus on 'limits' as some sort of goal to be reached or a designated marker to push a slave or sub past or through as you may suspect, (at least for many.) I do not begin any relationship - servitude or otherwise - with some goal in mind. There is no destination other than to learn about one another, grow, reach, hope, want, share and explore...more akin to a journey. As I learn about My sub and they begin to learn about Me - what I need, what I want, how to please Me - the reach becomes deeper, and deeper, and deeper. The sub grows in their submission, and develops depth within their experiences. Limits are reached, redefined. It becomes rather relative after a time, as trust has developed to a point in which the desire to please often overrides any lingering fears. At that point, when limits have faded away to a larger degree, the sub becomes refined within their service, and it becomes more about what you share and the relationship you have together.

Or so has been My experience. [;)]

Best,

~Thea



cherylann -> RE: On limits & obedience (9/5/2006 5:38:58 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mstrjx
If you, kneeling, don't enjoy (from what I understand) obedience, then what left is there?  To be a bottom (an object during painplay)?  How do you define your own submission?

When your 'own feelings' are directed towards the Dom(me)/Master/Mistress and not yourself, then this is where your subservience begins.  Have you not been able to attain this?

Jeff

Im not saying I dont enjoy obedience. Its the main reason I am interested in the lifestyle. I didnt mean to imply a person not wanting to be submissive, I was more questioning how far being submissive goes in the relationship. Its hard for me to put into words..

There are things I enjoy and things I dont, but I would do either of them because he or she tells me to. In this I enjoy submitting, even though it may be in the form of something i dont care about (like horseplay) or something I hate (like CBT). I want to know if people define thier limits by what they want to do, or what they know they can tolerate. I havent ever heard the term "hard limit" before, but I think what I consider a limit others would call a hard limit.

For example, if I were to be spanked for doing something bad, I would probably enjoy it even if its severe and painful. If I were to do a "golden shower" scene I would absolutely hate it and it would feel like punishment, but its not so bad that I would use a safeword. If someone wanted to do a scatophilia scene, that would be a limit and I would use my safeword.


Does most SBDM relationships involve doing things the person doesnt enjoy doing as a form of submitting, or does it mostly involve just the things that the sub enjoys/has a fetish for?



sweetnurseBBW -> RE: On limits & obedience (9/5/2006 6:17:07 AM)

As a slave the M/s relationship is not defined by what I enjoy or find acceptable. I serve my Master's needs and do what he enjoys and finds acceptable. Which 99% of the time match up to mine. I truly enjoy giving up control and that is where my need is. Some try to top from the bottom, which to me doesnt really serve a purpose other than to frustrate those involved, but some let it go on.



MsKatHouston -> RE: On limits & obedience (9/5/2006 6:28:50 AM)

quote:

Does most SBDM relationships involve doing things the person doesnt enjoy doing as a form of submitting, or does it mostly involve just the things that the sub enjoys/has a fetish for


Most of MY BDSM relationships involve doing things I enjoy.  That being said if the things I enjoy are not compatible with the things the sub enjoys it will probably not work out too well in the long run.  Certainly there are the things that do not always mesh and if he or she does them whole heartedly for my pleasure then that is a testament to their willingness to submit.  If a sub has limits, those will be respected with 2 points regarding them.  First, I would probably not have a submissive who had a limit for something I thoroughly enjoyed.  Second, if I was able to live with a limit even if it was something I enjoyed, I would make the sub aware that I would address it occasionally and try to whittle away the limit after some trust and experience have been established. 

Punisments are things that are never done for the enjoyment of the sub.  I don't particularly enjoy them either.  So, if you like to be spanked and I owned you, you would never get a spanking as punishment. 



charismagirrl -> RE: On limits & obedience (9/5/2006 6:40:24 AM)

cherylann, now you seem to be getting to the meat and potatoes, something such as scat would be a hard limit for you. The best idea is to search yourself and look at some of the BDSM checklists out there on the net and find out what some of the activities you may be called on to participate in are. After you have learned about yourself you'll see some things such as scat that to you are repugnant or scary or whatever that you just will NOT do. Take note of these things and then the things such as you mentioned golden showers that you would do simply to please your Dom/me. Find the things that although seem pretty far fetched for you to imagine but that you aren't completely against-these things may be soft limits.Then find out what activities you really are into or would love to try and take note of those.

Okay so now that you've assessd the situation you will be able to find the One to either play with or to be in a relationship with. If in a realationship with someone you are COMPATIBLE with then although you will most likely have to do things that are not your favorite flavor of tea you will also have a Dom/me that will either share similar "fetishes" as you or who will gladly give in to some of yours as a reward for good behavior.

Most important is personal evaluation, if you don't know what you want (emotionally, physically, sexually) then you can't find the right One to give your obediance, service, love to.Second is chosing and really getting to know the One you will offer your submission to.

Don't be surprised though, if you do have the right one, when you begin to learn and grow in ways you could never have thought. When you meet someone inside of yourself that you never dreamed existed. Then your limits and likes and dislikes may change drasitcally.



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: On limits & obedience (9/5/2006 7:10:16 AM)

I don't know anyone who has not had to endure or deal with things they don't enjoy in life in order to reach a long term goal or "get to the good stuff."  That has nothing to do with submission.  Submission is not an endurance test, nor is it about martyrdom and sacrifice.  I know doms who have had to endure far more stress than anything they put on their subs.

The difference with submissives and slaves is that what they endure (to a reasonable extent) is in the hands of their personal intimate relationship.



thetammyjo -> RE: On limits & obedience (9/5/2006 7:16:20 AM)

I can share from my current ownership of Fox.

There are things that Fox and I both enjoy which we do all the time -- bedtime rituals, his aiding me in the kitchen and with housework, his escorting me around, sex, "pet" play, minor pain play.

There are things that Fox enjoy which I'm neutral about -- we do them when I want to be extra nice or as a reward. Examples are bondage and rubber.

There are things that I enjoy which Fox is neutral about -- he does them when I wish and gets pleasure out of seeing me happy and pleased. Examples are almost any form of medium or heavy pain play.

There are things that I enjoy that Fox hates but which are not limits for him -- he does them, usually with an intake of breath and a conscious focus on making me happy; I give him positive feedback. His job as my slave is to serve me even if it is something he hates.

However his limits are there for very good reasons -- health, both mental and emotional. I think I'd be stupid to risk damaging him by pursuing them and I'd think him a fool for sticking around me if I did. I'm not stupid and he isn't a fool.

This philosophy works well for us.



cherylann -> RE: On limits & obedience (9/5/2006 9:36:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo

I can share from my current ownership of Fox.

There are things that Fox and I both enjoy which we do all the time -- bedtime rituals, his aiding me in the kitchen and with housework, his escorting me around, sex, "pet" play, minor pain play.

There are things that Fox enjoy which I'm neutral about -- we do them when I want to be extra nice or as a reward. Examples are bondage and rubber.

There are things that I enjoy which Fox is neutral about -- he does them when I wish and gets pleasure out of seeing me happy and pleased. Examples are almost any form of medium or heavy pain play.

There are things that I enjoy that Fox hates but which are not limits for him -- he does them, usually with an intake of breath and a conscious focus on making me happy; I give him positive feedback. His job as my slave is to serve me even if it is something he hates.

However his limits are there for very good reasons -- health, both mental and emotional. I think I'd be stupid to risk damaging him by pursuing them and I'd think him a fool for sticking around me if I did. I'm not stupid and he isn't a fool.

This philosophy works well for us.

I think this is much how I feel things should be in a relationship, for me personally.

I dont mean to say it should only be about the things the sub enjoys, that the subs fantasies do matter, or that any paticular way is the "right" way. I know its different for everyone, I was just trying to get a feel for what is more common. If the common BSDM relationship is set up on a mutual basis or one largely/wholly biased in the dominant's favor. I was also curious about how much punishing a sub was about really punishing them, as opposed to punishing them in a way they enjoy. I get a lot of mixed signals from reading about BSDM and the few people I have talked to. If I talk to a potential Mistress or Master I would kinda like to know what is the commonly accepted views. It helps me tell how extreme a person is and gives me an idea of what to expect.

Personally, I am not sure what all my limits are. There are some things I enjoy and some things that bother me, but 95% falls into that curiousity column. I would make sure to duscuss my feeling in depth with any potential Dom/me, and get a good sense of how they feel on it before moving further. I dont know very much about how most of these relationships work though, so im trying to learn about it. ^_^



Celeste43 -> RE: On limits & obedience (9/5/2006 9:42:40 AM)

If your wishes are never taken into account, you won't stay in the relationship. You're human and therefore cannot possibly totally eliminate your wishes and replace them with the dom's. If you set this up as what you need to achieve, then you are setting yourself up for failure.

As far as obedience, it depends. Some people's dynamic depends on obedience, some on service, and some on emotional transparency. For myself, we're the last of the three. That means that if I really don't want to do something, and doing it will leave me full of resentment, and I don't tell him this - then I'm being disobedient to our dynamic. Now for other people, they will feel more submissive when they are told to miss the end of the show to go make him cookies or whatever. If it works for you, then you're into obedience. If you would rather willingly go make him his favorite cookies and miss the end of the show, then you're into service. And if like me, you would say "Please don't make me miss the last five minutes because I've been waiting all week for this" then you might be into emotional transparency.



MySweetSubmssive -> RE: On limits & obedience (9/5/2006 9:58:17 AM)

Thank you for this post.  I often find it hard to articulate my D/s desires because it would be like a fish trying to describe why it needs water.  It doesn't even know it needs it because the water is it's environment.  Your detailing of obedience, service and emotional transparencey was an epiphany for me.



Argentopal -> RE: On limits & obedience (9/5/2006 10:03:50 AM)

For example, if I were to be spanked for doing something bad, I would probably enjoy it even if its severe and painful. If I were to do a "golden shower" scene I would absolutely hate it and it would feel like punishment, but its not so bad that I would use a safeword. If someone wanted to do a scatophilia scene, that would be a limit and I would use my safeword.

You have actually defined the difference between "soft" and "hard" limits very well here.  A soft limit would be something you did not enjoy or want to do or have done to you and a hard limit is "no way".  Some people will say that a slave has no limits and often there can be some long threads along the line of "what if Master told you to __ insert something stupid here - jump[ off the Empire State Building__  and the reply will be "He would never tell me something like that"  and so on back and forth ad infinitum.   The real truth for most people would be that they really do have hard limits (scat is one of the often mentioned ones) it just works out that both people in the relationship have the same hard limits.

Does most SBDM relationships involve doing things the person doesnt enjoy doing as a form of submitting, or does it mostly involve just the things that the sub enjoys/has a fetish for?

I, personally - jmho, think there is a big difference between bdsm and D/s.  I live a 24 /7 D/s life.  D/s is who we are.  bdsm  is something we do for fun.  Sort of like we are also always husband and wife, it is how we live; and sex is something we do because we like it.  So, for me ... submitting in my everyday life, the D/s, involves doing what Argent tells me to or what I instinctively know he wants me to do, whether I particularly want to do it ot like to do it or not.  I hate making the bed, but I make it every day because it is one of Argent's rules and also because I know it pleases him and it makes me feel good to know I have pleased him.  So in a way I gain pleasure out of doing something he wants me to do, if that makes sense.  It makes me feel good to things that are pleasing to him, even if it is somethign I do not like to do. I was  a heavy smoker and I quit when he told me to.  Being pleasing to him and doing things to make his life a bit easier and more pleasant fill a need in me and make me feel good; hearing him say he is pleased or happy with me makes me feel good, so even if I have had to do something I do not want to do, I do get something positive out of it.  For us D/s is really a 2-way relationship, even though I have given myself to him - doing so helps me be a better person.  Our D/s has taight me about really loving someone and about absolute  emotional trust.
 
The bdsm for us is able physical pleasure, release of tension, physical trust, and hot sex!
MsOpal



kitty2MLoneWolf -> RE: On limits & obedience (9/5/2006 10:04:14 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cherylann

If I were to do a "golden shower" scene I would absolutely hate it and it would feel like punishment, but its not so bad that I would use a safeword. If someone wanted to do a scatophilia scene, that would be a limit and I would use my safeword.


<public service announcement>

I just want to point out that safeword and hard limit are two very distinct and separate things. If something is a hard limit.. it should never come up as something that needs a safeword.  Safe word is used to note a problem where a submissive has reached the limit of tolerance or that something is going off kilter somewhere.

<now returns you to your regularly scheduled discussion>



porcelaine -> RE: On limits & obedience (9/5/2006 8:47:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cherylann

Personally I consider the wishes of the sub to be wholly subservient to those of the Dom/me, excepting those things a sub cannot accept doing. I would think a M/s relationship typically involves giving up all your limits and accepting all of your Master or Mistress's wishes. What I guess I am trying to ask is what is your take on limits and obeying even when you truely dont enjoy doing so. I imagine the pleasure of obedience is truely felt when one obeys irregardless of one's own feelings.



Obedience and subservience are not one in the same. I do not believe that you can silence your desire. We may opt to consciously ignore them but they will rest dormantly in the shadows until something prompts them to resurface. I believe that is imperative that both parties are engaging in give and take for the relationship to maintain some element of balance. This does not imply that my wishes are tossed aside for the things he craves instead. My wants and needs are just as important and shouldn't be ignored.

I believe that we both sacrifice and compromise as well. The master will not always wish to engage in certain things or activities but does so for my benefit. Whether this is relegated to the D/s element or other areas is not important. When the scales tip too sharply in either direction it is inevitable that someone will begin to feel a tad bit shafted. While some view themselves as wholly submissive to their owner, I accept and celebrate the fact that this is merely one aspect of me.

I take pleasure in knowing that my actions reflect positively upon the one I serve and work earnestly to do this with some element of continuity. This is further cemented by the joy he finds in my willingness and heartfelt desire to comply. Including those challenging moments when his wishes may contradict my own. Neither my feelings nor the impact of such are ever ignored or viewed as unimportant. When faced with an act that I may not find favor with I attempt to consider the positive growth and service my adherence to his decision will bring to us both.

porcelaine



cherylann -> RE: On limits & obedience (9/6/2006 4:09:05 AM)

I want to thank you all for your posts, it has helped clear up somethings for me. Until it was mentioned, I had never heard of "soft" or "hard" limits. They clarify things a bit.


I still need to explore my submission, but I like to think that it involves doing things I enjoy, but centered more on his or her wishes with mine being secondary. I would think long and hard about it before I entered any relationship, talking these things over in detail. D/s seems more about growing together, learning from eachother desires whereas a M/s relationship is similar, but perhaps more (or entirely?) centered on the Dominant's wishes. I think it would please me to do things for my Master/Mistress irregardless of how I feel about them, but I dont yet know enough about myself to say that with any certainty. I'm more interested in the relationship than any of the specific SBDM acts, I just need to learn more about it all. ^_^



Lashra -> RE: On limits & obedience (9/6/2006 4:36:01 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo

However his limits are there for very good reasons -- health, both mental and emotional. I think I'd be stupid to risk damaging him by pursuing them and I'd think him a fool for sticking around me if I did. I'm not stupid and he isn't a fool.

This philosophy works well for us.

My sub and I also have this philosophy and I think it is a very wise one to follow

~Lashra



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