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RE: Question for female subs on punishment - 9/6/2006 11:11:47 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		Mavis,

Tomorrow I could find I need some punishing and atoning for my wrongs...it is not "immature", it is the way you function... nothing wrong with that if everyone feels their needs are met. Perhaps I am the immature one to not "get" punishment? It is entirely possible I am the one that needs growth. I can tell you one thing, the more he asserts his control over me, the better I like it...WEG

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Mavis)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Question for female subs on punishment - 9/6/2006 2:38:18 PM   
lizziepink


Posts: 2
Joined: 5/15/2006
Status: offline 		I struggled with this concept as well when i was a few weeks into a new relationship.  It came down to the fact i didnt TRUST the dominant to know better than i did.  Also i was worried about not being listened to, of my opinion not counting, and i was SCARED of punishment.  i am still afraid of punishment. It's that word PUNISHMENT.  For me it wont be pain usually, but its no less painful.   There is also an humiliation thing going on here too.  She is a grown woman used to making her own decisions maybe, perhaps she has children and is now used to being the authoritarian.  It is humiliating and embarrassing to be told off.  Its like being a child again. 

I think you have to know and trust your dominant, to listen to you, to change his mind if its appropriate, or moderate the punishment, or to stand firm so you KNOW that he cannot be manipulated.  It depends on the circumstances.  Also you may be very very sorry for doing something that has caused the upset, but if your relationship involves behaviour altering techniques a punishment is a very effective tool. 

Previous posts have mentioned a sub may NEED to be punished to feel better herself.  This has happened to me, it fitted in with my sense of what was fair.  I'll give an example.  i rather foolishly said to my dominant i dont feel like it, make me.  ( gulp ) My dominant then had to do something he didnt want to do.  Punish me.  The punishment was actually more of a lesson.  I still didnt feel right.  i offered to do something that i knew my dom enjoyed but i really hadnt wanted to try, i did this because as he had had to do something he hadnt wanted to, i felt it fair that i should to.  You can find yourself needing to readdress the balance, if that makes any sense.  Alternatively you may want a corporal punishment so you feel you have attoned. 

Your sub sounds a little like i was.  In that its the idea of the punishment that worries her. Perhaps she hasnt been punished yet.  Its how i felt when i started out.  She wants to submit to you, but shes not submitting her common sense and self preservation.  It really sounds like a trust and communication issue.  If she learns she can trust you to be truly in a position of authority over her, alter her behaviour and her way of thinking then the idea of punishment becomes easier.  I may have got it wrong for you.   Punishment may be something she can never include in a relationship, but if my personal experience helps then good!

best wishes

(in reply to Mavis)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Question for female subs on punishment - 9/6/2006 6:22:33 PM   
Slipstreme


Posts: 817
Joined: 1/1/2006
Status: offline 		To the OP A bit from a Dominant if you may: Do you and your submissive have agreed boundaries? Areas she is responsible for service, duties, chores, sexual etc. Have you and her agreed where and when punishment is appropriate and for what she should be punished if the question comes up? From what your post seems, she does not understand what and when something is expected to her, and that non-compliance could lead to unpleasent situations. You and her might need to talk more about what you expect of her, and what punishment could be administered because of it. She needs to know what she can do to go wrong. Another thing, does she really understand that her submission is for your pleasure not hers, that her attention should be on your needs and wants first?  

Also explain to her that what she did wrong is what you see not what she would necessarily see, your decision, not hers. However, please also remember to discuss with her what it is when the situation comes up, and never forget, your submissive is human. She is prone to mistakes, mood swings etc and will never be perfect, so it does pay to be a bit forgiving and caring even when you feel punishment is necessary. However ultimately, when, how and why she is punished is your choice. This is something she should understand before she even considers a collar.

_____________________________

Living the Dichotomy

Painslut? How about "Endorphin Junkie"?

For information about "the furry thing" please check out my profile journal entry for: 1/17/2006

Alpha of a leather family of four. Master to the slave z.

(in reply to lizziepink)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Question for female subs on punishment - 9/6/2006 7:04:24 PM   
MasterLark


Posts: 249
Joined: 5/12/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: lizziepink
Your sub sounds a little like i was.  In that its the idea of the punishment that worries her. Perhaps she hasnt been punished yet.  Its how i felt when i started out.  She wants to submit to you, but shes not submitting her common sense and self preservation.  It really sounds like a trust and communication issue.  If she learns she can trust you to be truly in a position of authority over her, alter her behaviour and her way of thinking then the idea of punishment becomes easier. 


Well said. And many thanks to all, especially adding links here and offering specific suggestions.  I appreciate the wide range of views and approaches and the several distinctions offered.  I am glad I was patient to stay out of the way of this conversation so it could naturally unfold as it has with many ideas.  There is no one situation that fits all, of course, but to hear the range of options is important.  I do not live with this sub, and she came to me with her questions, some of which will find answers in her own experience and by reading and listening to many others.

My novice sub is one who wonders what it would be like someday to be married to a Master -- in other words to be both in a husband and wife relationship -- vanilla -- and also be in a Master/slave relationship (her husband would be her Master) -- she thinks she may want to have both lives under the same roof and wonders how that might work.  Punishment was one notion that appeared to be a problem in that kind of situation, in the way she could imagine her life as a wife and as a slave.



(in reply to lizziepink)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Question for female subs on punishment - 9/6/2006 7:31:38 PM   
ownedandcollared


Posts: 217
Joined: 1/21/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterLark

My novice sub is still trying to understand the idea of punishment, and so I thought perhaps some female subs/slaves here might be able to help her out by expressing it in ways she may understand better.  Here is how she talks about it:

"i am still very confused about the idea of punishment, and do not understand why there would be a part to D/s that is unpleasant. What if the submissive does not agree that she has done something wrong? What if she doesn't agree with the punishment? YOU say that YOU consider D/s a relationship and not a "game" (i may have used the wrong word here), but YOU also said that YOU like to have a "normal" relationship as well. i agree with that, but don't understand where the punishment fits in and how the boundaries do not become blurred. In a normal relationship, YOU would not "punish" YOUR wife. i thought the whole point of D/s was that it was enjoyable. i know that the relationship is unequal, but that is where the fun lies - so why would the punishment be truly unpleasant when the rest of it is supposed to be fun? i really don't understand! : )"

Any thoughts to share?

Master Lark





The fact is, she is above all Your slave. You are not in a "normal" relationship. Yes, it is supposed to be enjoyable, but there are still boundaries and limitations, and there must be repercussions for crossing either of them.
Furthermore, if there, in her world, can be no punishment for bad behavior, there can be no reward for good behavior. i am sorry to say, Sir, but Your slave is behaving like a child who wants to eat nothing but cookies for the meal. If the parent lets her, then she will gorge herself on them and eventually get a tummy ache, and not want to eat cookies anymore. If You allow this behavior, she will continue to act out until she gets tired of it, and will not want to serve anymore. There is no good in serving without the response--negative or positive--of the Master.

(in reply to MasterLark)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Question for female subs on punishment - 9/8/2006 2:09:38 AM   
Celeste43


Posts: 3066
Joined: 2/4/2006
From: NYS
Status: offline 		It sounds as though she's more of a bedroom sub than into 24/7 and personally I think that's appropriate for a newbie. Why not just let the relationship grow organically? Just because punishment was a big part of the dynamic with your last sub doesn't mean that it will be with this one, or that it should be.

However if you're focused on giving out frequent punishments and she finds the concept offensive, it makes me wonder how compatible you are.

(in reply to ownedandcollared)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Question for female subs on punishment - 9/8/2006 12:52:25 PM   
Talldrkgentleman


Posts: 33
Joined: 9/6/2006
Status: offline 		I found "punishment" or discipline to be the single most difficult concept to understand. At first spanking started in passion for fun and amazingly I found it rather erotic. Then one time my gal flew off the handle is as her want (ridiculous thoughts, etc.), and I took my hand to her. That was when she and I found it calmed her. That perhaps if she is "punished" (even though no real pain was involved), she would not have to kick herself (a lifelong endeavor). That was when many things clicked into place for me.

I've only really punished her once and witheld from her something she has truly desired all her life (she really messed up good). I don't know if such things I talked about is punishment, discipline, behavior modification, or whatevah; but if it calms my girl, I'm all for it.

What did I discover that day I found her calm? Anyone?

< Message edited by Talldrkgentleman -- 9/8/2006 12:53:59 PM >

(in reply to Celeste43)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Question for female subs on punishment - 9/8/2006 12:55:51 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Talldrkgentleman
What did I discover that day I found her calm? Anyone?

That she will get attention and atonement even when she acts badly.

Just remember that punishment, if taken seriously, should be exceedingly rare and serious.  And that the behavior which causes the punishment is almost always a SYMPTOM of a larger issue.  If you don't deal with the orignal ossie, the symptom will continue to crop up.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to Talldrkgentleman)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Question for female subs on punishment - 9/8/2006 1:47:56 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline 		My beth answered in theory and philosophy with focus on the individualism of each relationship. All good things to consider but I don't feel it addresses the question posed by the OP or more specifically the "novice sub".

Effective punishment requires a mindset. It requires a understanding in the relationship for it's purpose. It's the Dominant's responsibility to clearly communicate what "punishment" represents, and it's "goal". The communication should occur long before any actual punishment occurs.

Our definition of what punishment represents is basic. Punishment = Failure.

It was not beth's failure, I shared the responsibility. My training wasn't precise, my explanation of a particular activity or duty wasn't clear, or my instructions lacked enough specific details. Ultimately I defined it for beth as a "failure of our relationship". In a M/s relationship, with a sadistic Master and a very masochistic slave it's critical that punishment is so clearly defined. Without the distinction the line between punishment and pleasure is blurred. Because we identify punishment and the implementation of punishment in these terms, tears of anguish and pain have flowed from beth as the result of blow struck much less intense then those inflicted during "play".

Leading to the second part of the equation, punishment goals. The goal is just as basic, correcting the "mindset" that caused the failure. Prior to any punishment there is discussion that focuses both our minds on the reason it is necessary, and how we can make sure to avoid the same occurring in the future. There is discussion, there isn't lecture. We get to the core of the "why". After that part of the process I'm convinced that I could punish beth with a feather and have the same effect.

I've never, and would never, punished for physical mistakes or accidents. Break a crystal glass dropping it in the sink while washing it, oh well. Break a jelly glass by tripping over a dog toy that should have been picked up - punishment. I don't have her looking over her shoulder shuddering at the thought of me holding a cane in my hand waiting for her to make a mistake. I don't set her up for failure. I don't use, or like, punishment for "bratty" attention seeking behavior.

The best aspect of a M/s relationship and quick effective punishment is that once it's done, it's over. There isn't any of the vanilla, "I'm not talking to you and I'm going to bed mad!" There is no resentment or lingering aftereffects. It has a impact of often intensifying the relationship because both parties know the other is serious about the commitment. It's cathartic, purging, cleansing, and allows you to put the situation causing the problem behind you so you can move on.

I'm very happy that it's been a very long time since there has been the need for punishment. It's not something either of us look forward to. I would like to avoid it as much as beth; if not more. I hate failure.

Hope this perspective helps.

(in reply to Mavis)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Question for female subs on punishment - 9/9/2006 4:06:19 PM   
TemptingNviceSub


Posts: 3054
Joined: 10/1/2005
Status: offline 		IMO..all is interpretive between the 2..however with that being said to my way of simplistic thinking..punishment to some submissives and Dominants alike is a way to achieve closure on a particular issue..discipline on the other hand is a form of a teaching tool...Tempting

(in reply to Mavis)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Question for female subs on punishment - 9/10/2006 8:55:34 AM   
MasterLark


Posts: 249
Joined: 5/12/2005
Status: offline 		LuckAlbatross--

"Just remember that punishment, if taken seriously, should be exceedingly rare and serious.  And that the behavior which causes the punishment is almost always a SYMPTOM of a larger issue.  If you don't deal with the orignal ossie, the symptom will continue to crop up." 

Words well said.  Thank you.

Merc n beth --

Excellent explanation.  Love the details and distinctions you offer.  Thank you.

Master Lark


(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Question for female subs on punishment - 9/11/2006 3:52:41 AM   
aprissygirl


Posts: 1
Joined: 8/20/2006
Status: offline 		Master Lark

I found this question very interesting.  The failure of discipline in my relationship was one of the factors that caused its failure.  The following is my response to Your submissive: 

First let me state that I do not like the word "punishment" as it has a negative connotation.  I am a firm believer in discipline.  Discipline helps to guide me to the place I long to be.  It helps me to become all I can to the One who I have chosen to gift my submission.  In a previous D/s relationship, I had to all but beg for the discipline I knew I had "earned".  The boundaries became VERY blurred when there was inconsistency in expectation.  The relationship failed for many reasons; not the least of which was lack of structure and discipline. 

When I first discovered the "real" woman I was; the one who coursed through my blood, I was confused about discipline as well. Now I understand and crave that structure in a D/s dynamic and will not settle for one who is unwilling to help guide me to be all I can be. 

With regard to disagreeing that you have committed a transgression, I am sure there will be times that this occurs.  You should work on an agreement with Your Dominant to structure a way to "discuss" your feelings on a matter.  If He is a worthy Dominant, He will not "strike" when He is angry, and will allow you the opportunity to voice your concerns in a respectful manner.  If He does not care to hear you, then walk, no run as fast as you can.  Only in a relationship where you are heard will there be success.  If your Dominant only dictates and takes, you will slowly lose energy, desire, drive and all sense of self. 

I have had some amazing experiences in my quest.  Be open to the experiences and you will receive many blessings.  Best to you in your continued journey.

prissy


(in reply to MasterLark)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Question for female subs on punishment - 9/11/2006 4:21:41 AM   
Fort


Posts: 2
Joined: 8/15/2006
Status: offline 		And then there are some of us who, for whatever reason, respond only to positive reinforcement.  I'm as eager as a Golden Retriever to please my Daddy, to see a smile, even hear "good girl" and how much he loves me.  But the years of psychological abuse in my growing stages have left me unable to internally understand "Punishment" as a positive means to understanding and growth.  "Punishment" is my psyche is an attack that must be withstood without flinching or even blinking and it must be given back three-fold so that the Punisher becomes the Punished and think twice before attacking again.  And this took a while for my Daddy to really grasp the depth of its meaning.  After 35 years it's not likely to change even if I have understood that this one Punisher is a benevolent one.

My thoughts are that if one person uses punishment comfortably while the other doesn't, it's a simple mismatch of personality types.  Find what moves the sub's soul to please you and work with that.  Imposing a different set of values than what either person believes in can't work.

(in reply to MasterLark)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Question for female subs on punishment - 9/11/2006 1:59:23 PM   
Jewel85


Posts: 18
Joined: 8/21/2006
Status: offline 		"i am still very confused about the idea of punishment, and do not understand why there would be a part to D/s that is unpleasant. What if the submissive does not agree that she has done something wrong? What if she doesn't agree with the punishment?"

This, I believe, is where the conversation is most important. Submission is a gift, and no one should be punished for not giving said gift if they have a good reason. For example, I have bad knees. If I were told to kneel and stay kneeling for more than half an hour, I would want to bring up that this would really mess up my knees, and it would be days before they were back to 'normal'. So, in this case, we would talk about alternative punishments, or an allowance of a short 'stretching' time, or some such. If a sub does not feel a punishment is proper, or does not feel she deserves punishment, she should say so, and she and her Master can talk about it. If she has a good reason, then it's taken into consideration, but if it's something like 'I just didn't feel like doing it', then the punishment should be given.

"YOU say that YOU consider D/s a relationship and not a "game" (i may have used the wrong word here), but YOU also said that YOU like to have a "normal" relationship as well. i agree with that, but don't understand where the punishment fits in and how the boundaries do not become blurred.  In a normal relationship, YOU would not "punish" YOUR wife."

Actually, I see couples punishing each other all the time. "No sex tonight, you sexist pig." "Sleep on the couch, and next time maybe you won't forget our anniversary." "You didn't make dinner for me? I guess I'll just go out with the guys, and leave you here alone with the kids. Deal with it." It's very normal and natural to punish each other. It's a way to say 'Hey, I don't like that. Fix it, please." In a D/s relationship, this can sometimes be a physical punishment, yes, but that's often because the Master knows his sub can take it. Yes, it's unpleasant, but it's punishment, right?

Just a few thoughts,
Jewel @}-;---

(in reply to MasterLark)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Question for female subs on punishment - 9/14/2006 4:21:35 AM   
Darke


Posts: 33
Joined: 9/3/2005
Status: offline 		Obv, the issue of punishment will vary from relationship to relationship, as every couple has --hopefully--communicated about whether D/s is something they do in bedroom every other Thursday on date night, on the weekends, or all of the time.

The term of art "punishment" seems to be  used in several different ways, and gets muddied.  Is it an action or a mindset?  Some call the act of spanking "punishment" even if it is a sensation they enjoy, and will act out in order to receive an "erotic punishment". If this coy dynamic is the one a couple (or triad, quartet, what have) has set up, and makes them happy, yay for them.  For most in the community, punishment is something that the bottom partner finds unpleasant, delivered after some willful malfeasance. 

The Dom knows the sub finds it unpleasant, and the sub knows that the Dom knows that the sub knows that the sub knows the Dom knows the sub finds it unpleasant.

This topic also lets Me sneak in My favortie bdsm aphorism, four simple words that say so much:  "Clear expectations, consistent enforced."

Communication, as always, is all.

If the Dom has not told a sub He finds a behavior displeasing, and the sub exhibits the behavior, the fault is the Dominant's.

If the Dom has told a sub He finds a behavior displeasing, and notices and responds the fourth or fifth time she exhibits the behavior, the resulting confusion and and frustration from both parties rests with the Dominant.

If a Dom has explicitly told the sub a given behavior is displeasing, and the sub exhibits the behavior or a similar one, knowing full well it will displease Him.  Is caught and reprimanded the first time, knowingly does it a second time.....then God help U/us.  The Dominant will give her a sensation He knows she finds unpleasant and unerotic, or withhold for a set length of time sensations she finds pleasant.

Which gives Me a chance to sneak in My all-time favorite joke, for the clean mathematical elegance of it:

"What did the sadist do to the masochist?"
"Nothing."

(in reply to Jewel85)
Profile   Post #: 35
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