RE: Do we believe change is not possible?

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NastyDaddy -> RE: Do we believe change is not possible? (9/7/2006 2:15:40 PM)
Necessity drives, or inspires CHANGE. It's actually ALL about "necessity", and a perfect example of the necessity and level of CHANGE: When you shit your pants you CHANGE them, if you didn't shit them bad enough, then you only CHANGE your underwear and hope for the best...

Lordandmaster -> RE: Do we believe change is not possible? (9/7/2006 4:09:24 PM)
I agree. I don't think direct experience is the ONLY way that we can learn, but often it's the only way in practice. When we're convinced of something that isn't really true, or have our minds closed to other possibilities, it usually takes a radically disabling experience to make us realize what we've been doing wrong or what we've been ignoring. And I find that direct personal experience is the best teacher. Yes, it's possible to learn things by observing other people, by reading, and so on, but sometimes you don't figure things out until life decides to hit YOU. quote: ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross quote: ORIGINAL: justheather The second type of change you talk about is more the type Im referring to. It seems like we accept these opportunities when they come to us as great big earth-shattering events, but Im wondering about the times when we might be able to choose to create an opportunity or are listening closely for one as opposed to having one thrust upon us in a manner we can not ignore. Yeah I'd like the universe to stop bonking me on the head with the same lesson, too. But until I wake my ass up and start being aware and really LEARNING the lesson and being that way, it's unfortunately what it resorts to. Plus, we're so invested in outcomes, and so desparate to prove ourselves, it's REALLY hard to just go with the flow and accept sometimes.

RiotGirl -> RE: Do we believe change is not possible? (9/7/2006 4:30:31 PM)
Heather - People can only change if they REALLY want to change. If they themselves want to change. People can not change other ppl, no matter how much you wish it sometimes. There's no majik cure another can give another and if there was, i'd of made peace on earth by now = ) People can change, but you cant change ppl.

Owned1 -> RE: Do we believe change is not possible? (9/7/2006 5:48:09 PM)
pssst, Riot perhaps you should take some of your own advise Owned

SusanofO -> RE: Do we believe change is not possible? (9/7/2006 6:21:08 PM)
I don't have time to write a lot about it just now, but think this is an interesting thread. It strikes me that a related idea to believing (or not) whether people can and do grow or change could be: How is confidence in onself, or another person, developed? Is it important to have it? Is a life-time supply doled out at birth (some have it some don't, and that's that?) - Susan

Noah -> RE: Do we believe change is not possible? (9/7/2006 7:39:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SusanofO quote: ORIGINAL: justheather It seems like we accept these opportunities when they come to us as great big earth-shattering events, but Im wondering about the times when we might be able to choose to create an opportunity or are listening closely for one as opposed to having one thrust upon us in a manner we can not ignore. I really liked this heather. Me too, Susan. As I read in the post where it appeared first I was thinking that it was one of the wisest things I've read here in a while. I've appreciated your comments along the way too. quote: "It is wrong to believe that love comes from long compatibility and persevering courtship. Love is the off-spring of spiritual affinity, and unless the affinity is realized in a moment, it will not be created for years, or even generations." - Kahlil Gibran This, though just doesn't line up with my experience, unless you allow for moments that can last a year or more--and I'm not being facetious.

julietsierra -> RE: Do we believe change is not possible? (9/7/2006 8:04:38 PM)
To me, "change" implies becoming different than what we were or.. are. And, actually, I don't believe people change. I DO believe however, that people become, over time, more of who they are. A person who is not submissive is not going to change into being submissive. A person who is dominant, is not going to change into being dominant - unless the person who has suddenly or gradually changed into being submissive or dominant had that within them all the time. In essence, they have merely enhanced who they were in the first place. Now, this may all sound like semantics, but here's the thing... if someone goes into a relationship because they like x number of things about a person, but really dislike y number of things about them and anticipate that ok, over time, they will change the person they are with, so that there will be less y things and the relationship will then be hunky-dory, I'd be willing to bet someone's going to be in for a rude awakening. If someone goes into a relationship liking the x things and disliking the y things, and hopes that over time, the person will see that the y things are bothersome and change, they are going to be in for a rude awakening. Each person has to WANT to change - because there is something they gain personally - and this doesn't mean the possibility of gaining the other person. Additionally, I don't think I'd want to walk into a relationship where the other person would want me to change. I looked for someone who liked me. ME - with all the good and the bad rolled into one. Sure, I'd strive to improve - but that person had to want ME in the first place... not who they thought I could become. It is the same in the other direction as well. I wouldn't want to walk into a relationship hoping the other person would change. That would be me making a decision for myself dependent on someone else's decisions and actions for himself. First of all, there's the utter joy of being wanted for who I am, and secondly, there's no more drama later on when I find out that my hopes for someone else's behavior was not realized. I strongly believe in a no drama life. So, I guess I'm all for the "as is" sale. At least this way, there's no discovering that he couldn't be what I'd hoped he'd be...and I'd never have to worry that I somehow didn't measure up. juliet

Noah -> RE: Do we believe change is not possible? (9/7/2006 9:11:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: julietsierra To me, "change" implies becoming different than what we were or.. are. And, actually, I don't believe people change. I DO believe however, that people become, over time, more of who they are. A person who is not submissive is not going to change into being submissive. A person who is dominant, is not going to change into being dominant - unless the person who has suddenly or gradually changed into being submissive or dominant had that within them all the time. In essence, they have merely enhanced who they were in the first place. Now, this may all sound like semantics, but here's the thing... But semantic aren't nothing. If you are using the word change to point to one thing in life and, say, Justheather is using it to point to something else then it will take great care or intuition (I can do the first but I'm very spotty with the second) to avoid confusion. I think it would be well for people using the word "change" to indicate what they mean by it, or maybe, when someone says that people can't change it might be helpful for them to explain what aspects of a person they are thinking of since it is unmistakeable that we all change constantly in ways that are not altogether insignificant.

marieToo -> RE: Do we believe change is not possible? (9/7/2006 10:53:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: justheather quote: ORIGINAL: marieToo General Reply to the OP : I think people adjust, more than they actually change. Just dont ask me to explain it. marie. Marie - do you mean "adjust" as in "fine tune" or "adjust" as in "shift to accomodate"? justheather- I mean adjust as in shift to accomodate. That was a good way of putting it. Thank you. I think people are born with certain basic characteristics. Happy, stubborn, determined, worrier, laid back, etc. (even as babies we can start to see this fundamental personality growing) We change in a growth sort of way throughout life; I think in that sense we never stop evolving until we die or become comotose. But I dont think we can change for a person, change for a relationship, or change to fit into a career. I do however believe that we sometimes make certain choices for whatever reasons (marriage, career, etc) and then we adjust to accomodate the situation that we've created. I think alot of people, end up living this way and feeling content but not quite complete.....I know I did for quite some time. Thats behind me now though and I hadnt realized that I had adjusted in that situation because it happened so gradually. Once I was out of it, examining it in retrospect, I came to see it very clearly. I dont know if others have experienced the same thing. marie.

MistressSassy66 -> RE: Do we believe change is not possible? (9/7/2006 10:58:21 PM)
I know change is possible.I have done it Myself and I have seen others do it. The secret to the succuss of changeing is actually wanting to change. Thats not to say its easy some things arnt,but you have to hang in there and ride that wave to the end.

ownedgirlie -> RE: Do we believe change is not possible? (9/7/2006 11:25:07 PM)
~ Fast Reply ~ Some thoughts: A person must want to change in order to change. At that point, any change is possible. Heather, I loved your idea that rather than try to change what the other person does, we can change how we respond to it. It is a theory taught in many self help books as well. It is a theory that, when practiced, might change the outcome of many a relationship. Most people are resistant to change, because they fear it. Change means something is going to be different, and I don't know how to respond to that difference yet. I don't know how it will affect me. Most people will create the worst possible scenarios in relation to change, rather than the best ones. Example, a new boss was coming in to the office. No one knew anything about her. The worried questions were all the same - "What if she's going to change things?? What if things get worse??" My response was, "What if they get better?" It is my belief that those who tend to think change can not happen are those who fear change most themselves. Finally, it would seem lacking to not include the Serenity Prayer in this thread about change: God, Grant me the serenity to accept the things I can not change, The ability to change the things I can, And the wisdom to know the difference.

SusanofO -> RE: Do we believe change is not possible? (9/8/2006 1:22:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Noah quote: ORIGINAL: SusanofO quote: ORIGINAL: justheather It seems like we accept these opportunities when they come to us as great big earth-shattering events, but Im wondering about the times when we might be able to choose to create an opportunity or are listening closely for one as opposed to having one thrust upon us in a manner we can not ignore. I really liked this heather. Me too, Susan. As I read in the post where it appeared first I was thinking that it was one of the wisest things I've read here in a while. I've appreciated your comments along the way too. quote: "It is wrong to believe that love comes from long compatibility and persevering courtship. Love is the off-spring of spiritual affinity, and unless the affinity is realized in a moment, it will not be created for years, or even generations." - Kahlil Gibran This, though just doesn't line up with my experience, unless you allow for moments that can last a year or more--and I'm not being facetious. *Noah: I know you're not being facetious. I believe you (would an insincere person even bother to say something like "I am not being facetious? ") I don't believe they would. I really appreciate the insight in your posts, Noah, because you seem to really zero in on what's being said as a whole in the gist of a post or pick up on a theme for an entire thread.. And find a way to creatively illustrate a point(s) that speak to the topic, or change the direction of it to get people to look at topics from fresh perspectives - I usually find it inspiring simply because your comments seem to really zero in on what a specific poster has said, and speak to that. I also think they are often interesting and entertaining. I really do think everybody, man and woman, on this thread listens in their own way, and I've truly seen others on this thread do some of the same as I described above - each in their own way. I really get inspired when I realize that someone else displays they respect others' uniqueness. *I'm talking about the actual thread topic now - Everyone has their own way. Do I want* to realize this? I have to want to do it, to be able to do it. But - I also need to believe it is possible, which is why I brought up the confidence factor. I do have quite a bit of confidence, but I also appreciate people who can inspire confidence. How do people do this? In general , part of this, (to me), really is realizing everybody has their own way - and recognizing people's uniqueness. What makes them different? Special? Sometimes I am tired, and forget to mention this, but I like to believe I honestly usually try to see it. As far any of this pertains to relationships, realizing Everyone has their own way, means (to me): To want to look at what I think makes someone different from others in a good way; what makes them, them. I am not talking about someone (truly) being always "touchy-feely." People display this in different ways.But - if I am in the "right" frame of mind (optmistic, looking for the best in people, having had enough sleep, etc) I am much more prone to look for it, and appreciate it. Then, when I see a statement of theirs, I am much more open to having a so-called "Ah-Ha" "truth-revealing" moment, and maybe learning something new that may pertain to personal growth, making some new kind of realization, or being inspired to want to learn more about something. If feel excited because I feel open and like they are open to me as well (or could be). Note: This is a general statement. There are people, after all said above, I maybe feel I have more to learn from than others - But- I believe everyone has something to offer someone as far as being able to learn something from them. Anyway - I can process what they are stating with an open mind. And not, therefore, make it mean that what they say must also mean I am therefore, somehow, "wrong". Any "attaching judgment" to denigrate myself disappears - and then it's certainly okay with me for everybody to just be themselves. It's truly Zen-like, because I just appreciate that they are who they are, and it simply doesn't make me feel "less" or "more" or un-deserving. I wish I could explain it better, but I am a lil' tired just now. "It is wrong to believe that love comes from long compatibility or persevering courtship. Love is the off-spring of a spiritual affinity, and unless the affinity is realized in a moment, it will not be created for years, or even generations." -Kahlil Gibran. I didn't explain why I liked the quote, and it might be a stretch as far as applying to the topic, and not everybody is going to see the same thing in it I do (And isn't that great, really? when you stop to think about it? If everyone thought exactly like me, life would be a lot less interesting sometimes, I think) But - anyway - This quotation "spoke" to me about: What love, or willingness to show devotion, really is, somehow. And - I extrapolated it to mean that: Devotion can grow from the smallest act to ongoing devotion and "love", if displayed on an ongoing basis between people. I saw it as almost a re-write from another viewpoint, of justtheather's statement - I interpreted it also as: Realizing that there are moments, every day, when people can be loving toward, or serve, someone else. They can be "created" by looking for them, and finding a way to feel and display an affinity toward someone. Is behaving lovingly toward someone "serving" them? Yes, I think they can be the same thing. I also think love or devotion to someone, can be "realizing an affinity in a moment". If "realizing affinity in a moment" can be viewed as: Devotion. Because if devotion is construed as existing by performing seemingly "insignificant" acts, or "more significant" ones - I feel it can grow. And when people are around someone all the time, or often - they can reinforce that devotion, and see it - and feel it be reinforced. They can appreciate it. This does work both ways, I think (both people (or all involved) can re-inforce that devotion. I know Gibran was from another country and generation, and what he says may not wholly apply today for some reasons. But in general, here's what I meant by choosing the quote: I do think if there is little "desire" to be "in tune" with someone, or to "realize an affinity in the moment", with them, then saying one did X, Y & or Z will not make a relationship "compatible". I interpreted (and extrapolated) one of the OP's (justheather's) original topic points to be that she'd seen people say things like: They simply "might not be compatible with Dom or sub X", Or ending relationships due to "incompatibility" (which can certainly be true, but is a vague term). Or, that people possibly felt they "should" be compatible with someone, simply because they'd "courted" for X amount of time (in weeks, months, even years). They were having what they veiwed as "problems" for reasons 1,2,3, which insinuated it was "justifiable" somehow. To me, compatibility doesn't need to be "justifiable". If it needs to be "justified" (a whole lot, anyway) then I think it probably isn't a good definition of "compatible". A relationship just needs to be workable (to me). There isn 't a huge need to attach a "judgment factor" to being compatible (for me). *However, I think that if a basic "desire to realize an affinity" - and I mean with the essence* of someone else, with their spirit, their personality, their desires, is too low, or simply does not exist - that people stand a markedly better chance of not being compatible, no matter how long their "courtship" has persevered, or why they "should" be "compatible". Because they may think they are being devoted, but they in fact might not be seen that way by the other person. I feel this works both ways, for people: Dominant/submissive, Master/slave, (or Domme or Mistress/submissive/slave). I don't feel there is a need for two people to judge this "compatiability factor" as one being "right" and the other "wrong", *It just "is" - and could well be the reason things might not be "working", if they are not viewed as "working out". - Susan [:)]

SusanofO -> RE: Do we believe change is not possible? (9/8/2006 2:24:40 AM)
Oops. Please ignore those quote boxes that were just here. Sorry about that. No message re: The topic. But - Happy Friday everyone. - Susan [:)]

ExSteelAgain -> RE: Do we believe change is not possible? (9/8/2006 2:29:06 AM)
If someone is not flawed in extreme ways, change is possible if the reward is great enough in his/her mind. I can help change someone by creating rewards that I know will be desired.

julietsierra -> RE: Do we believe change is not possible? (9/8/2006 2:36:53 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Noah I think it would be well for people using the word "change" to indicate what they mean by it, or maybe, when someone says that people can't change it might be helpful for them to explain what aspects of a person they are thinking of since it is unmistakeable that we all change constantly in ways that are not altogether insignificant. That's why I defined my view of change in the very first sentence. And only after that, gave a nod to the possible view of all this in terms of semantics. juliet

Wolfie648 -> RE: Do we believe change is not possible? (9/8/2006 2:44:41 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: justheather It struck me this morning as I was reading the advice given by some of our members in various threads, that it seems to be the opinion of some people here, if not many, that people can not change. When people post questions about compatability in one form or another, often times the answer given by more than a few people is "If this person is not compatible with regard to XYZ, the answer is simply 'move on'". Is it that they cannot or that they will not or that they choose not to. I can't say. edit* forgot to add or they miss the point entirely** quote: I have heard often times throughout my life the adage "People don't change." Usually I hear this when there is a discussion among women about why a particular relationship failed. While I agree that "People don't magically change just because you offer them love and you want them to change" I do believe that people are capable of change. People change all the time. Do they do it for themselves or for another? quote: I believe that by meditating on positive thoughts, I can change my attitude. I believe that by choosing to process experiences in a different way, I can create change in the way I respond emotionally to situations. I believe change is possible. One of the reasons I love my relationship with my boyfriend is that he challenges me to see things in new ways and, if I come upon a new way of thinking that works better for me than the way Im doing it presently, to integrate those ways into my own thought patterns. He loves me as I am, but still encourages me to grow and yes, I believe even to change. Your beliefs are your own and are neither wrong or right. Nor are they relevant to other people - just like mine aren't. quote: Is it somehow a disservice to one party (I guess it would usually be the sub) to expect or suggest that he or she change something for the sake of the relationship if that change is inevitably going to be one that improves his or her self-awareness and results in personal growth? For me, that is a huge part of what draws me to this type of relationship to begin with. We talk about training and behavior modification of the slave, but yet when the submissive partner in a relationship expresses that "a need is not being met" so many people say "leave the relationship". Are we not doing them a disservice by offering this kind of broad, sweeping advice? Bell curves for everyone (mebbe Susan will laugh). For those not familiar - what goes for one relationship does not go for another relationship and we all fall on the curve somewhere to the left right or smack dab in the center of the person asking the question of that curve. Interpretation: What a person thinks is wrong or unjust is not what is wrong or unjust for another couple (bi/poly/gay/lesbian/dyke/slave/sub/ master/owner/etc./etc/etc.). Humans converse to gain perspective of their environment. Say it isn't so. D (owner of j).

SusanofO -> RE: Do we believe change is not possible? (9/8/2006 3:11:26 AM)
Wolfie: I did laugh. I just think it's a fun thing to say. Everyone is on the bell curve. I think you're right about most people being smack dab in the middle of it with the poster (or at least trying to be) - Passing them out to everyone is a nice idea (You're a peacemaker. You realize not everyone has the same viewpoint).Yes! I do believe humans converse to gain perspectives of their environment. You're on the bell curve too. Make sure you give one to yourself! [:)] - Susan

Sunshine119 -> RE: Do we believe change is not possible? (9/8/2006 5:25:59 AM)
fast reply Do we believe change is not possible? Changing who we ARE is not possible. The "Minnesota Twins Seperated at Birth" studies are very frightening when the implications are contemplated. Between the genes we are given and the fact that 95% of our personality is formed by the time we are aged 5, I don't think radical change is possible......unless it was genetically engineered to be accomplished, at a certain time. Of course, all of this brings up the whole idea of predestination. When an alcoholic stops drinking, did he change? Or did he become what he was genetically programmed to do at ....let's say....aged 45? When, we (speaking about submissives here for a moment) become more docile, more subservient, is it because we have been "changed" by a particular Dominant? Or is it because we are so in our genes and s/he is able to help us demonstrate those abilities? When it appears that radical change has occurred in a person, is it that the person has made a decision of "free will" to do so? Or is it just our experience that it "feels" like we make these changes freely? This is a great subject. I wrote my dissertation on "Genetics and Free-Will". After a great deal of study on the matter, I was disheartened to find that my study did not support the general attitude and feeling that we can and do change of our own volition.

onestandingstill -> RE: Do we believe change is not possible? (9/8/2006 8:39:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RiotGirl Heather - People can only change if they REALLY want to change. If they themselves want to change. People can not change other ppl, no matter how much you wish it sometimes. There's no majik cure another can give another and if there was, i'd of made peace on earth by now = ) People can change, but you cant change ppl. This is what I would say too. I'd also say I've seen many who desire to change but do not have the ability or stay power in the end to reach the desired goal. The leg work and efforts needed to change can be sometimes too hard for someone to follow through with and after a big start they revert right back into their comfort zone. Suzanne

Irishblu -> RE: Do we believe change is not possible? (9/8/2006 9:23:26 AM)
In my own journey of change, having self confidence in MYSELF is what helped me the most. I wasn't changing for anyone, but for me. In changing for me, I was a better mother and person in general. My biggest change was not letting everything bother me, I've learned that there are so many things in life that aren't worth a reaction from me, positive or negative. For many years all people got was a negative reaction from me. In the 6 years since I began to change, I think I have become a better mother, friend and now that I "know" what it was deep in me, a better slave. Growing up I had nothing but people who invalidated me, it wasn't till I took them out of my life, yes even including my father, and I surrounded myself with people who validate me. In the course of life, we encounter all sorts, but ultimately we decide who we surround ourselves with daily. I choose to be a happy person. My life is filled with laughter, even when things aren't going right, is it worth another ulcer? another migraine? No, at the end of the day when I lay my head down, I try to not have regrets, but nothing I will loose sleep over. I struggle right now with a huge fear of trust. That is something I have to change. No matter how hard Master tries, or how many times he has proven his trust, it has to come from within me to want to trust. Which I do, with his help and support I am daily getting closer to what I call blind trust. He accepts me for me, scary and damaged as I am. He doesn't want to change me, there are areas I can better myself and he is in support of those, but does he want to change who I am? No. For that I guess I am lucky, in having such a wonderful man who believes in ME, which in turn makes him a very powerful Master, I am proud to serve. Thank you to Heather, this is a great topic.

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