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Policing bdsm - 9/7/2006 8:38:39 AM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		Hi

Again, this has likely been discussed ad nauseam in the past, (and LA will post me dozens of threads from her library - how does she do that!?).

I was inspired to post this though, after an email from a friend of mine about two experiences she had watching demos in clubs in the Midlands, UK. They disturbed her and they disturbed me, though for different reasons, and they raised the question in my mind as to how, if its possible at all, bdsm can be policed from within, or whether we have to accept the sort of outside interventions as are proposed here in the UK?

Episode 1; a male sub was whipped etc (all the usual stuff), but then the demo finished off by him being secured and having the word slave cut into his back. It emerged later he hadnt agreed to it but had been so high on drugs, supplied by the perpetrators, that he had gone along with it.

Episode 2; a young woman, secured inside a bag, was brought in by two guys. They opened the bag and she ran for the audience, begging for help to evade the two guys. They dragged her back and held her down and made a very good show of raping her, forcibly and violently against her will before putting her back in the bag, to the extent that many people there thought it was real and wanted to intervene. I realise that not everyone gets off on the same things, and that some might like more extreme scenes like this, but surely for a public show (assuming, I pray to the Gods, that is what it was) which anyone might gain access to, (press etc), there has to be a limit to things, (or am I just soft and innocent?), and stuff like this should be reserved to private circumstances? I should add that at no point was it made clear that the woman concerned was "all right folks".

The venues were both bdsm venues, (but not members only), so public demo shows in themselves were to be expected. What I dont understand is why any show needs to violate, or appear to violate in the second case, the three commandments, and from there I would like to ask what others think of such goings on and how this sort of thing can be controlled from within bdsm so that we dont acquire the bad name which some would like to pin on us?
E
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RE: Policing bdsm - 9/7/2006 8:50:20 AM   
darkinshadows


Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline
Well, coming from the UK - unless you are prepared to name the clubs participating, its all heresay in the first case, and I have never ever been to a public show that showed anything or allowed anything as you have described.  The councils are very strict in the UK and if its a public setting, NOT a private play party, then there are heavy stipulations on what can and cannot be shown/depicted, dependant on the councils involved.
 
Private play parties are completely different - and that is up to the hosts and their responsibility.
 
If the boy was indeed drugged, then that just would not be permitted in any of the venues I am aware of - and if it is - then its up to the boy to make the complaint.
 
Peace and Rapture


< Message edited by darkinshadows -- 9/7/2006 8:51:24 AM >

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RE: Policing bdsm - 9/7/2006 8:50:49 AM   
justheather


Posts: 1532
Joined: 10/4/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen
Episode 2; a young woman, secured inside a bag, was brought in by two guys. They opened the bag and she ran for the audience, begging for help to evade the two guys. They dragged her back and held her down and made a very good show of raping her, forcibly and violently against her will before putting her back in the bag, to the extent that many people there thought it was real and wanted to intervene. I realise that not everyone gets off on the same things, and that some might like more extreme scenes like this, but surely for a public show (assuming, I pray to the Gods, that is what it was) which anyone might gain access to, (press etc), there has to be a limit to things, (or am I just soft and innocent?), and stuff like this should be reserved to private circumstances? I should add that at no point was it made clear that the woman concerned was "all right folks".



This reminds me of the scene in Interview with the Vampire where the girl is on stage begging for her life and the audience members think it is "part of the show"...she is then killed by the vampires on stage while some of the female audience members "beg" the leading man to "take them too"...having no idea that what they just saw was real.
That scene disturbs me every time I see it.
If I were to witness something like that I do not think I would enjoy it, and would probably become physically ill with worry about the consent issue. I think that if a scene like that is going to occur, the people who are viewing the scene should be able to interact with the parties involved before and after the scene. Yes, the illusion of reality is broken, but just enough that those watching can still choose to suspend disblief during the scene and enjoy it fully, more fully for those of us who always identify with the "victim".
The initial example you gave is the reason that a lot of people believe it is never appropriate to indulge in any mind-altering substances while playing, which, as we all know, is another thread...


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RE: Policing bdsm - 9/7/2006 8:54:44 AM   
sub4hire


Posts: 6775
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		There have been a great many threads here on these boards about policing the community at large.  Easily done by a search...the type Emerald does.

However, usually in the end it comes down to there probably is not an effective way to actually make this happen.

If a party host chooses to be responsible they can permit what they so desire into their parties.
They can choose who they will allow and disallow.
Differnt groups in the US are quite affective at policing the community. Then other groups do little to nothing.
Black lists would never work primarily because people are scorned and would put good decent people on the list when they never should have been there to begin with.
It would be no different than someone from these boards claiming someone isn't real.  The only basis they have to prove that would be...well they aren't into what I'm into so they aren't real.
Doesn't mean they aren't into a whole lot more.

So, how could one accuratly police anyone?  Pull up police reports on specific people?  I've actually done that in the past.  There are a great many predators in the So Cal area who everyone cherish.  Yet, nobody really seems to care they may be playing with a 5 time convicted rapist.  Child molester or anything like that.

What can be done?  Without too many false claims?  I have no idea.

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RE: Policing bdsm - 9/7/2006 8:56:01 AM   
MstrssPassion


Posts: 2444
Joined: 1/1/2004
From: West Palm Beach, FL
Status: offline 		The only self policing that can happen is that you remove yourself from the environment that makes you uncomfortable or that you don't agree with.

You didn't like the cutting & you didn't like the rape scene... you don't like the fact that a venue would show this... fine, don't watch this type of scene & do not go to places that show these films or has these type of scenes.

I'm not saying I support these scenes you mention, I'm just saying that a BDSM Police is a really bad idea & it will never fly.

We have enough politics to deal with in our day to day lives why interject it into this aspect of our life that is based on our self-expression of our most intimate as well as our most carnal desire.



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RE: Policing bdsm - 9/7/2006 9:03:39 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MstrssPassion
The only self policing that can happen is that you remove yourself from the environment that makes you uncomfortable or that you don't agree with.

You didn't like the cutting & you didn't like the rape scene... you don't like the fact that a venue would show this... fine, don't watch this type of scene & do not go to places that show these films or has these type of scenes.

I'm not saying I support these scenes you mention, I'm just saying that a BDSM Police is a really bad idea & it will never fly.

We have enough politics to deal with in our day to day lives why interject it into this aspect of our life that is based on our self-expression of our most intimate as well as our most carnal desire.

Ditto. 

If it's a scene that you just THINK goes over the line, remove yourself.

If it's a scene that breaks the posted rules, go find a DM.

If it's a scene that involves illegal harm and abuse- the person THEMSELVES should involve the vanilla police who have the actual authority to enforce things.

We're supposedly a culture that rests everything on adult consent.  Once we agree to babysitters, we lose everything.

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RE: Policing bdsm - 9/7/2006 9:15:18 AM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		I totally agree.

Its that these sorts of extremes are publicly played out and could give the impression that "this is what bdsm is" that concerns me, since it will inevitably drag in the police at some point, whoever reports it, and likely then ruin things for everyone.

We cant have blacklists or some appointed guardians of morality as it would never work for so many reasons. I guess at the end of the day all we can really do is walk away and let the venue know our feelings on such things.

E

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RE: Policing bdsm - 9/7/2006 9:19:40 AM   
Celeste43


Posts: 3066
Joined: 2/4/2006
From: NYS
Status: offline 		I think drugging someone to do something he would not otherwise agree to is entirely reprehensible and he ought to sue. However both of these scenes are very edgy and should have been discussed by all parties with the DM prior to the scene. That way the DM would have scene the first slave was not sober and could have refused them play and he would have known the second was a willing participant and could thus allow the scene to go on in good conscious. Isn't this why at parties there should be a DM?

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RE: Policing bdsm - 9/7/2006 9:27:42 AM   
MstrssPassion


Posts: 2444
Joined: 1/1/2004
From: West Palm Beach, FL
Status: offline 		It isn't going to ruin it for everyone... it is going to ruin it for those who run these venues displaying this type of activity. It may also touch the lives of those who are there on the night of a raid... public mention in the paper, arrest or film at 11...

What we are & how we decide to live our lives will survive no matter how many idiots out there cross what we feel are lines. Plenty of people have been arrested, plenty of locations have been raided... this "life" goes on.

If you don't like the scene or find the environment unacceptable by your own defined terms, don't stick around... because those who do like it don't want someone telling them.. hey, you're doing it wrong!

I have walked out of plenty of locations. I could care less if the crowd there finds me prudish for doing so... I only have to worry about living with myself & up to my own standards... not everyone else's.

< Message edited by MstrssPassion -- 9/7/2006 9:29:25 AM >

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RE: Policing bdsm - 9/7/2006 9:35:27 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MstrssPassion
I have walked out of plenty of locations. I could care less if the crowd there finds me prudish for doing so... I only have to worry about living with myself & up to my own standards... not everyone else's.

And for me, I'm a fairly edgy player and like watching fairly edgy scenes.

But I've left parties just because the energy didn't suit me. 

And guess what?  Is IT what bdsm is.  We've got crappy, stupid people in the scene.  And we've got serious edge players who will do things that could make other people upset.

This is why we hold SO strongly to "adult consent."  No one has to like what you do and you don't have to like what they do. 

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RE: Policing bdsm - 9/7/2006 9:37:03 AM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		Absolutely MstrssP - its public perception after such publicity that concerns me though, and the associated media induced knee jerk legislation that could follow

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RE: Policing bdsm - 9/7/2006 9:39:23 AM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

And guess what?  Is IT what bdsm is.  We've got crappy, stupid people in the scene.  And we've got serious edge players who will do things that could make other people upset.


Sorry LA, what I meant by the phrase "this is what bdsm is" was that public perception would come to believe that every scene was as extreme as this, and so bdsm must be a socially unacceptable phenomenon that endangered unwilling victims and so had to be stopped.
E

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RE: Policing bdsm - 9/7/2006 9:46:33 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen
Sorry LA, what I meant by the phrase "this is what bdsm is" was that public perception would come to believe that every scene was as extreme as this, and so bdsm must be a socially unacceptable phenomenon that endangered unwilling victims and so had to be stopped.
E

To a certain extent, that's been taken care of.  BDSM images, nomenclature, ideas, symbols and so on have put themselves into mainstream culture to the point where, to a certain degree, it is considered harmless sexy fun.

With teenagers having total access pretty much to anything kink related online, the next generation will be even more so.

So as far as culture itself, I think, as with homosexuality, the kink culture will have taken care of itself in that way.  Also like the homosexual culture, it will still not be universally accepted, understood or welcomed- but it will be "enough."

Also like homosexuality, legal issues will continue to be a problem.  And bad publicity and dumbasses are not useful towards this.  However, creating our own "police" will not properly serve that end.  Supporting groups such as the NCSF and WFF will go much further towards that.

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Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

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RE: Policing bdsm - 9/7/2006 9:59:39 AM   
vield


Posts: 354
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		We can be responsible for ourselves, and we can take the steps to be sure our events follow our rules, and we can leave events where things are not in our comfort zone.

We can check the backgrounds of those we allow into our bedrooms and dungeons.

Few of us will go along with the thought of anyone we do not know making rules for us. LOL if anyone needs that, I am sure any number of established religions will be GLAD to give them rules.

If we discover cases of true abuse, we can support the victims in seeking healing and legal redress. 

I am not concerned that incidents like this will prejudice the vanilla world into believing all BD/SM is that sort of abuse. There are MANY very zealous religious groups who already preach that about us no matter what we do. This is not limited to right wing groups or to christian groups either.

Consensuality is my biggest personal fetish.

In the SSC mantra we use, the words safe and sane are buzz words, good because they are hard to editorialize against, but very subject to definition by all involved. However consensuality is the axis our scene revolves around. If all parties involved in anything are not adults who knowingly consent to what goes on, this is abuse, not BD/SM. Abuse deserves legal action.

Your fully consensual scene may totally squick me out. My fully consensual scene may turn your stomach. We do not have to watch, we do not have to participate, and if we have given consent to something which becomes too much we may withdraw that consent at any time.

Karma will police all of our scenes in any case, and we get back what we give out, good or bad.

Your mileage may vary!

vield 


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RE: Policing bdsm - 9/7/2006 10:14:41 AM   
amayos


Posts: 1553
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: New England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Hi

Again, this has likely been discussed ad nauseam in the past, (and LA will post me dozens of threads from her library - how does she do that!?).

I was inspired to post this though, after an email from a friend of mine about two experiences she had watching demos in clubs in the Midlands, UK. They disturbed her and they disturbed me, though for different reasons, and they raised the question in my mind as to how, if its possible at all, bdsm can be policed from within, or whether we have to accept the sort of outside interventions as are proposed here in the UK?

Episode 1; a male sub was whipped etc (all the usual stuff), but then the demo finished off by him being secured and having the word slave cut into his back. It emerged later he hadnt agreed to it but had been so high on drugs, supplied by the perpetrators, that he had gone along with it.

Episode 2; a young woman, secured inside a bag, was brought in by two guys. They opened the bag and she ran for the audience, begging for help to evade the two guys. They dragged her back and held her down and made a very good show of raping her, forcibly and violently against her will before putting her back in the bag, to the extent that many people there thought it was real and wanted to intervene. I realise that not everyone gets off on the same things, and that some might like more extreme scenes like this, but surely for a public show (assuming, I pray to the Gods, that is what it was) which anyone might gain access to, (press etc), there has to be a limit to things, (or am I just soft and innocent?), and stuff like this should be reserved to private circumstances? I should add that at no point was it made clear that the woman concerned was "all right folks".

The venues were both bdsm venues, (but not members only), so public demo shows in themselves were to be expected. What I dont understand is why any show needs to violate, or appear to violate in the second case, the three commandments, and from there I would like to ask what others think of such goings on and how this sort of thing can be controlled from within bdsm so that we dont acquire the bad name which some would like to pin on us?
E


I think I know of a few users on this board who would happily assume the role of the Thought Police, if they could.

As I've said before in other threads, I believe we can all "police" the community autonomously by holding true to being honest to ourselves and others, as well as undertaking full accountability for our own actions.


P.s. Your Episode 2 example reminded me of what I thought was the best scene in Interview with the Vampire.



< Message edited by amayos -- 9/7/2006 10:19:12 AM >

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RE: Policing bdsm - 9/7/2006 10:15:18 AM   
MstrssPassion


Posts: 2444
Joined: 1/1/2004
From: West Palm Beach, FL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Absolutely MstrssP - its public perception after such publicity that concerns me though, and the associated media induced knee jerk legislation that could follow




Ok, public perception... unless you run with the ideals of the moral majority the public is going to frown on you & no matter how much we do as an ATTEMPT to fit in with "their" perception... our (lifestyle/bdsm/fetish) differences will never be OK

I'll give you another example... one I'm sure you can relate to (I've read your profile) To the public, I am in a same sex relationship. When we go out we have to deal with glances & looks from those who are not "ok" with our holding hands or mild displays of public affection.

Just this last weekend we were standing in line at one of the Disney rides & a young couple standing close to us were embraced, cuddling face to face with full body contact. They kissed, rubbed noses & bit on each others lips for quite a while. Not one person paid them any attention... how do I know this, I looked around & watched the others both in front of us & from behind. I looked to my partner put my arm around her waist & leaned past my son who was between us & gave her a single kiss to her cheek near her mouth. Well that generated several responses of gasps followed by hands shielding mouths as one would whisper into the ear of the person they were with while they awkwardly looked toward us, away & back toward us again.

The perception was... OMG, those two women just kissed! At that moment would it have benefited us for any of them to know that my partner is in fact a pre-op TS that they would have to haggle about in their minds as to whether she was a she or was she a he??? (most people simply don't know how to address a transsexual) Would that have made it OK with their ideal to reveal this since it was quite alright from the young man & woman to paw all over each other just ahead of us?

So there you go... some differences are just to extreme for most to accept. The public is not ready to view this choice of lifestyle as a mainstream. The public still isn't so sure about gays either & God knows what this lifestyle has gone through to be recognized & be granted the same rights & respect. In most places gays still struggle for this.

I know what you are saying though... that these images being spread by the media aren't doing us any favors, but do you really think that the image of a completely consensual scene of one person being whipped with something as mild as a bunny skin flogger is going to create a warm fuzzy feeling to the general public? Nope & that is why you'll never see that film at 11... they need the most shocking outrageous examples out there to broadcast because with TV today... we have 400 other channels we could be watching & they want us watching them. The public is never going to know just how boring we actually are most of the time.


< Message edited by MstrssPassion -- 9/7/2006 10:19:04 AM >

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RE: Policing bdsm - 9/7/2006 10:32:18 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline 		The audience needs the policing, self policing.

Unless they too are tied to their seats or nailed if its an 'edgy' audience, they retain the right to 'safe-word' their visual without a word to disturb the scene - LEAVE!

Did It - Done It - Would do it again. As LA said not necessarily because of what I was seeing but because of "bad energy" or a bad dynamic.

To avoid this post being used as an example of repeating redundancy I'll add a comment about "Episode".

Back in the old college days on a Sunday morning many a frat mate would awake groggy having spent the night with a woman of less then standard beauty. Being adolescent males that we were he would be chastised and ridiculed and no matter who it was, and yes sometimes it was me. The excuse was; "I was wasted!". It was an example of "Morning After" remorse. The point is, the skeptic in me won't assume that the "drugging" was real or was not consensual. Also, consistent with the self responsibility and accountability, if he didn't know his partners well enough to trust them with the scene he shouldn't have agreed to do it.

Since it's implied that his scaring with the word 'slave' was beyond his limits it begs a question. For those professing the value of safe-words; when would it have been appropriate for him to use it, before or after being drugged?

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