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RE: Compare and Contrast? - 9/7/2006 9:51:57 PM   
KenDckey


Posts: 4121
Joined: 5/31/2006
Status: offline 		OK   No more movies based upon actual events.   Lets start the protest right now.  Lets blame this movie on Bush while we are at it.     Julia for President and movie censor.  LOL

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RE: Compare and Contrast? - 9/7/2006 9:57:05 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		Now you are building a strawman to ridicule me... Go You! That isn't what I said.

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RE: Compare and Contrast? - 9/7/2006 10:12:52 PM   
KenDckey


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Status: offline 		I didn't say you said it    I said it   Sheesh   How is that for facts?

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RE: Compare and Contrast? - 9/7/2006 10:21:20 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		Do you understand what strawman building is? It is a type of fallacy people engage in to "prove" a point.  Here is a definition for you
Straw Man Argument: A subtype of the red herring, this fallacy includes any lame attempt to "prove" an argument by overstating, exaggerating, or over-simplifying the arguments of the opposing side. Such an approach is building a straw man argument. The name comes from the idea of a boxer or fighter who meticulously fashions a false opponent out of straw, like a scarecrow, and then easily knocks it over in the ring before his admiring audience. His "victory" is a hollow mockery, of course, because the straw-stuffed opponent is incapable of fighting back. When a writer makes a cartoon-like caricature of the opposing argument, ignoring the real or subtle points of contention, and then proceeds to knock down each "fake" point one-by-one, he has created a straw man argument.
 


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Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

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RE: Compare and Contrast? - 9/7/2006 10:25:43 PM   
KenDckey


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Status: offline 		And here I nominated you for President and movie censor.  

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RE: Compare and Contrast? - 9/7/2006 11:05:49 PM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline 		~ Fast Reply ~

First, I always love it when the response to a point made against someone's favor is, "You are all too stupid to talk to about this." 

Second, re: Inaccuracies (to name a few):

From Dave Kopel, Research Director of the Independence Institute:
http://www.davekopel.com/Terror/Fiftysix-Deceits-in-Fahrenheit-911.htm

From Newsweek's Michael Isikoff & Mark Hosenball:
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=14054

From Jacob Laksin, Senior Editor of Front Page Magaine:
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=14097

From World Net Daily:
http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=39905

From David Horowitz:
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=13998

From Spinsanity, a non partisan watch dog group:
http://www.spinsanity.org/columns/20031016b.html

From the Democratic Leadership Council:
http://www.dlc.org/ndol_ci.cfm?cp=1&kaid=127&subid=177&contentid=252483


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RE: Compare and Contrast? - 9/7/2006 11:27:33 PM   
MistressSassy66


Posts: 1675
Joined: 11/5/2004
Status: offline 		Why all the angst?
How about all the families that lost loved ones having to relive it because of the movie?
I turn the channel when a commercial for it comes on.I dont think we should forget about 9/11.
On the other hand is it fair to families that lost friends and family to air a movie like this...I know life isnt fair,I just cant help but feel its like a slap in the face to those who are left alone and damaged by the events that unfolded that Day.

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RE: Compare and Contrast? - 9/8/2006 12:32:48 AM   
Chaingang


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie
~ Fast Reply ~


I found most of your sources quite slanted.

Further, noting the agreement between the Rethugs and Demopukes is pointless - they have been very nearly the same party for decades. However, the differences are meaningful, if slight enough, that I never vote for Rethugs in any case.

Thanks for pointing up the obvious!


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RE: Compare and Contrast? - 9/8/2006 12:44:31 AM   
Estring


Posts: 3314
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		I find it amusing that so many here are complaining about this mini-series playing with the facts. You mean the same way that people play with the facts when it comes to the Presidential elections in 2000 and 2004? President Bush won both those elections and every examination of the results bears that out. Yet I see over and over people saying that Bush stole the elections. It doesn't matter that the facts show otherwise. Saying it over and over doesn't change the truth.
This mini-series is based on the findings of the 911 commission, among others. Yes, there is some dramatization. It is a TV show after all. They do want people to watch it, so it needs to be a compelling watch.  At least they admit to the dramatization. That's more than Michael Moore or Al Gore did with their movies.  

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RE: Compare and Contrast? - 9/8/2006 1:02:46 AM   
KenDckey


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressSassy66

Why all the angst?
How about all the families that lost loved ones having to relive it because of the movie?
I turn the channel when a commercial for it comes on.I dont think we should forget about 9/11.
On the other hand is it fair to families that lost friends and family to air a movie like this...I know life isnt fair,I just cant help but feel its like a slap in the face to those who are left alone and damaged by the events that unfolded that Day.


I an empathize with the families, but why this movie and not "World Trade Center" which is showing in theaters all over right now?  the only major difference that I can see is Clinton.  Both are dramatizations, both are about 9/11, both are out together.   Oh and I have seen World Trade Center but that is because I don't go to the movies.   I wait for the DVD and just buy it.  Then I can see it as many times as I want for the price of admission and popcorn.

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RE: Compare and Contrast? - 9/8/2006 3:03:31 AM   
Level


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

This is so amusing at least I'm greatly amused!

Anyone remember the "dramatization" about the Reagan Administration? Mrs Reagan was told the same story about "dramatic license". It's just a movie, why all the angst?


No angst here, Merc. I just like my history as straight as possible. And I will be watching it.
 
Now..... The Stand came out pretty well, in my opinion, but Graveyard Shift? Feh.....

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RE: Compare and Contrast? - 9/8/2006 5:38:55 AM   
KenDckey


Posts: 4121
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Status: offline 		Did anyone see The Great Raid?   I thought it was an outstanding movie.   I think the biggest thing that was inaccurate about it was that the lady doc and the major (who was fictious) didn't have the love affair.  At least according to the interviews that I have seen from the participants.

Julia   I bought that one.  Have seen it several times.  Wanna come over and watch it with me?

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RE: Compare and Contrast? - 9/8/2006 5:39:57 AM   
peterK50


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Status: offline 		"Based on the 9/11 Commission Report", makes it sound pretty official. "Based on Pearl Harbor", I love the part where F.D.R. the Japanese spy orders all the battleships to line up & make good targets. Don't make fiction & pass it off as fact. The movie has Sandy Berger, National Security Advisor slamming down the phone on a operative who wants the go ahead to kill Bin Laden...ooooooooo....exciting stuff, except it didn't happen, even in the 9/11 Report. Make Sandy look pretty bad,  Wonder how the teachers using ABC's study guides for "classroom discussion" will make it clear that was fiction, except the dramatic scene sticks in the brain better then dry facts. Label propaganda what it is.

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RE: Compare and Contrast? - 9/8/2006 6:47:54 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline 		It looks like ABC is surrendering.
quote:

But a bombshell decision may happen anyway: Sources close to the project say the network, which has been in a media maelstrom over the pic, is mulling the idea of yanking the mini altogether.
Link: http://www.variety.com/VR1117949675.html

Why? Senate Democratic leadership sent a letter with this thinly veiled threat:
quote:

The Communications Act of 1934 provides your network with a free broadcast license predicated on the fundamental understanding of your principle obligation to act as a trustee of the public airwaves in serving the public interest. Nowhere is this public interest obligation more apparent than in the duty of broadcasters to serve the civic needs of a democracy by promoting an open and accurate discussion of political ideas and events.
Link: http://reid.senate.gov/newsroom/record.cfm?id=262624&&year=2006

How interesting in that they are using the child education angle to attack the program.

I hear the new version will not even have Muslims hijacking the planes. Instead it will be a formerly unknown civilization living underground in Antarctica.

Well, I'm happy that President Clinton and his legacy won't be amended and remain as wasting his presidency because of the need for a blow job.

Obviously the Democrats and Republicans share a common goal of using the threat of licensing pulling to effect government censorship. I wouldn't have taken the movie as fact anyway, but the "dark age" of US puritanical censorship obviously will continue unabated. I'm sure many will be happy at this turn of event. In the future when the same tactic is used to eliminate websites such as CM few will associate the two events. The loudest cursing fool can't grasp the concept that a label, like Democrat or Republican, shouldn't be the first and only determining factor before determining if you support or are against a position. It is so easy for them to be manipulated, because by labeling an issue by political party you effect their response. The species label is sheep.



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RE: Compare and Contrast? - 9/8/2006 6:53:10 AM   
CrappyDom


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From: Sacramento
Status: offline 		ownedgirlie

Nobody scored anything against me, when people can't tell the difference between a fictional movie based on future events and a movie passing itself off as historically accurate then the thread IS to stupid to bother with.

As for Moore's 9/11 movie, I have said over and over that he lost the '04 election with that movie.  Most of the issues he covered are true but he played so fast and loose with the truth that he destroyed them as issues.  He is an idiot and only the intellectually lazy think otherwise.

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RE: Compare and Contrast? - 9/8/2006 7:28:38 AM   
ownedgirlie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chaingang


I found most of your sources quite slanted.

But not all?  However you look at this little debate, there will be accuracies and inaccuracies.  Unless you believe that either side is dealing in 100% truth?
quote:


Further, noting the agreement between the Rethugs and Demopukes is pointless - they have been very nearly the same party for decades. However, the differences are meaningful, if slight enough, that I never vote for Rethugs in any case..

Both parties are corrupt.  However, the differences are meaningful, if slight enough, that I never vote for the "Demopukes" in any case. :)
.
quote:


Thanks for pointing up the obvious!


You are welcome.

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RE: Compare and Contrast? - 9/8/2006 7:37:56 AM   
ownedgirlie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CrappyDom

ownedgirlie

Nobody scored anything against me, when people can't tell the difference between a fictional movie based on future events and a movie passing itself off as historically accurate then the thread IS to stupid to bother with.

Thank you for replying.  Too often movies are presented as fact, passed off as fact, and believed as fact, as was the case with Moore's 9/11 movie, and with his Columbine movie as well.  If we can consider it a drama based on fact, you know - like the Hallmark movie of the week, then maybe there would be less debate over it.

Insulting the masses, in referring to "the level of comprehension here," in my humble opinion, does not help your cause however. Such a retort tends to pass one off as bitter and without argument, whether intentional or not.

quote:


As for Moore's 9/11 movie, I have said over and over that he lost the '04 election with that movie.  Most of the issues he covered are true but he played so fast and loose with the truth that he destroyed them as issues.  He is an idiot and only the intellectually lazy think otherwise.

I see we are in agreement re: Michael Moore.  Many of the "right wing bashers" seem to view him as some sort of God or "speaker of all things true," and lose credibility in doing so.  

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RE: Compare and Contrast? - 9/8/2006 7:47:00 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
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quote:

I see we are in agreement re: Michael Moore.  Many of the "right wing bashers" seem to view him as some sort of God or "speaker of all things true," and lose credibility in doing so.  


owned,
What image do the decision makers within the Democratic party want to convey regarding Mr. Moore by seating him in a position of prominence next to Jimmy Carter, and making him a key speaker during the last National Nominating Convention? I'd say they provided the credibility. Not "of all things true" but of all things representing the Democratic Party position. I'd agree that decision was contributory to the loss in the 2004 election.

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RE: Compare and Contrast? - 9/8/2006 7:48:14 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		Again Estring, you point out my disagreement when others have shown disagreement with the same thing as if I have no right to an opinion. You must not read my posts very much, I am a Ralph Nader sorta gal and I am not a partisan that likes any sort of democrat republican BS. Why would I point out well known hypocrisy? BTW read Greg Palast about election 2000... he wrote a great deal, and he can't stand Al Gore either... you see he is like me, independent.

Back to the issue at hand, if you do not mind movies that play with the truth in History, by all means watch whatever you like. I DO have a problem with it and miss many movies as a result

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 9/8/2006 7:49:09 AM >

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: Compare and Contrast? - 9/8/2006 9:19:26 AM   
CrappyDom


Posts: 1883
Joined: 4/11/2006
From: Sacramento
Status: offline 		Ownedgirlie,

I just love people who bitch about everyone being corrupt as if it is a bad thing and then vote for the most corrupt and incompetent government this country has seen since probably Grant if ever.

I wait on baited breath for the what ...

quote:

the differences are meaningful, if slight enough, that I never vote for the "Demopukes" in any case. :)


As for pandering to the masses, I don't have to count on the support of people dumb enough to not see through the constant lies and bullshit spewed by this administration. 

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Profile   Post #: 40
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