RE: Freedom Isnt Free (Full Version)

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meatcleaver -> RE: Freedom Isnt Free (9/9/2006 6:05:48 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NavyDDG54

Those 'refugees' were urged to leave by their own leaders who promised them that they would quickly purge the land of Jews.


Some were and they are now in refugee camps or have the Orwellian status of 'present absentees' in Israel. However there were thousands that were ordered out of their homes at gun point. I have a friend whose father was a Christian Palestian who was ordered out of his home at gun point and forced to leave his home with all the possessions he could collect in five minutes and his wife and family. Actually this is well documented, its easily sourced.



meatcleaver -> RE: Freedom Isnt Free (9/9/2006 6:29:55 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

I believe that it was your country that subjucated ours and the other 'WOG" collonies.



BULLSHIT. Read your history. Your country was never subjugated. If you learnt your own history you will realise the so called American Revolution was about elite power and not about freedom. Every state had democratic assemblies under Britain and Britain ran a massive trading deficit with the colonies and had more or less bankrupted itself defending the colonies from the French. The real contention that was exploited by people like Washingtomn was the Proclaimation line which was to protect Indian lands from the encroachment from the land hungry colonists. This was to be policed by the troops that came down from Canada having fought to defend the colonies and paid for by a stamp duty which was widely exploited for propaganda purposes, hence no tax without representation. However, 99% of the colonists never paid any tax to the British.
 
You see the American tax fixation is based on a myth. It was a propaganda ploy by colonist elites to provoke discontent and it is the reason Americans now have a visceral reaction to tax. Most Americans obviously prefer to believe in myth rather than seeking out the truth. Your elite were laughing back then and they are still laughing now. Except they aren't laughing at the Brits anymore they are laughing at the poor idiots who deny themselves universal healthcare and a minimum wage thinking it is for their own good when it is for the good of the American rich ie. latter day Washingtons.

EDITED TO ADD. There were written laws that when read would seem a bone of contention like the ban of smelting of steel. Yet the colonies smelted more steel than Britain. Look what actually was happening in the colonies and not at so called laws that were not enforced and barely known about by British governors. There were many of them that have were exploited that were never enforced, that was were the stupidity of the British came in, naivety.
 
Actually, losing the colonies was the best thing that happened to Britain so we Brits shouldn't really complain because it was that that freed Britain up to become an Empire.


I believe that it was your contry that caused the split in Ireland.

Yes. Ireland was part of Britain then so Britain was dividing its own country. Of course the Irish will be incensed with that view and I can understand it. Partition to me was a mistake and Britain would have been better off dumping the whole lt.

I believe that it was your country that was given Palestine in trust and didn't protect the Jews but armed the Arabs against them.

BULLSHIT!!!

Britain is far from innocent and done quite enough but don't burden us with things we haven't done.



juliaoceania -> RE: Freedom Isnt Free (9/9/2006 6:48:29 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NavyDDG54


Read some real news and history. Are you being paid by someone to spout this?




quote:

do some research, look at the pictures of the roads paved with tombstones.  Find me one Jew who prayed at the western wall between 1948-1967. Go ahead. I'm sure I can find arabs who prayed at the dome of the Rock.  And that image of the burning scroll...I saw it on CNN(your 'true' source for news) I also have seen first hand photos of the tomb of Rachel, it's almost unrecognizable anymore.  The ambulances are FACT. the fence is FACT. my 7 year old cousin was killed on a schoolbus riding to school by an Arab bomb. my best friend was blown up in a Sbarros.  Yet Israel is the evil group right?


You know what? I do not give a rat's ass who prays where. Israel ain't my problem. I am an American, not an Israeli. Why do I care about Israel anymore than any other country?



meatcleaver -> RE: Freedom Isnt Free (9/9/2006 6:49:15 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Mr MeatCleaver I know why terrorism exists
You see it as counterproductive when Israel indulges, you did not post that the same applies when the Arabs  indulge. Why is that ?


I was responding to the opening thread which has a one sided list. I was merely pointing out that the West and Israel are not innocent and have had a hand in creating the conditions for terrorism.



philosophy -> RE: Freedom Isnt Free (9/9/2006 6:56:29 AM)

"I am Jewish, the balfour declaration was the result of over a century of tireless work by great men such as Theodore Herzl whose vision enabled the Jews to return to their home. Dont use that as an excuse."


...an excuse? no, but possibly an example. Because there is one important element missing from your staement above. A political process backed up by terrorism.....or were there no future israeli leaders involved in the blowing up of British soldiers? Ah, but that was a long time in the past wasn't it........a terrorist campaign with a clear political aganda, that eventually became a political process and the tterorists got what they wanted......Israel. The exquisite irony of a jew holding the creation of Israel up as an example of how to combat terrorism is truely amazing.
There is a lesson from all this....the one that so many people don't want to hear.......it is this.....the 'war on terror' only ends when we talk to the terrorists. Until then its just a vicious cycle that only benefits arms industries and entrenched interests.



NavyDDG54 -> RE: Freedom Isnt Free (9/9/2006 7:09:04 AM)

The difference between the attacks carried out by the Palmach/Hagana and the attacks carried out by the terrorists is very blatant: We attacked soldier and military targets exclusively. The arabs target civilians, children(school buses, day cares, teenage night clubs).  The fighters of the Palmach and Hagana were using gureilla warfare, not terrorism. Attacks on military targets are lawful targets in a time of war. I am not protesting those attacks on members of the IDF, while I am opposed to them they are legitimate targets; schoolbuses, nightclubs, restaurants, supermarkets, bustops, daycares, bar mitzvahs, weddings, synagogues, churches, etc... are not.



philosophy -> RE: Freedom Isnt Free (9/9/2006 7:11:24 AM)

"Attacks on military targets are lawful targets in a time of war"

..then i'm sure you will be able to point at the declaration of war made on British troops by pro-zionist terrorists. i look forward to the link.



NavyDDG54 -> RE: Freedom Isnt Free (9/9/2006 7:13:30 AM)

Let me remind everyone, my intent of this post was to remind every one of 2 things:
1) That this war is not a new one, bush did not start it
2) That the freedoms we enjoy(this conversation included) are because of the sacrifice of the 7,000+ I listed and many thousands more that perished in the Revolutionary War, War of 1812, Spanish American War, the Civil War, World War I, World War II, Korean conflict, Vietnam conflict, Persian gulf conflict I, and the War on terror, especillay those in the Pentagon, WTC, Afghanistan, and Iraq.



MistressWolfen -> RE: Freedom Isnt Free (9/9/2006 7:15:02 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NavyDDG54

I didnt want to start a session on either, as I posted earlier, I was simply trying to help people to recognize that our country has been under attack for decades.


Perhaps an unbiased and historically accurate presentation of the facts would strengthen your positon? In regard to your country being under "attack" for decades please include your sources to support this statement, this would allow me a deeper understanding of your ascertation. As mediators say "a mere ascertation is not sufficient to prove the existence of a dispute". I am not agreeing or disagreeing with you, just asking for clarity and substance.



seeksfemslave -> RE: Freedom Isnt Free (9/9/2006 7:15:53 AM)

Mr Meatcleaver. I have never read your interpretation of the American Revolution and I'm not clear I understand what you are saying. Do you have a source where I could have a look/read. Maybe I see what you are getting at, the Brits. wanted to stop expansion into Indian Territory ?

My understanding was that peoples militias  eg the Minutemen were heavily involved.. Washington organised or took over an army. Some Indian tribes were involved. The French seized their opportunity. I have not got the precise details in my mind..

What was going on in the King David hotel philosophy. Remember I agree with your point. I am being ironic ! Menachim Begin wasn't it ? Shit, that will teach me to post without checking first. It was the headquarters of the British Military.



philosophy -> RE: Freedom Isnt Free (9/9/2006 7:16:31 AM)

...so no link then...leading me to the inescapable conclusion that pro-zionist terrorists illegally blew up British soldiers, and that eventually a terrorist campaign was stopped by negotiation.



NavyDDG54 -> RE: Freedom Isnt Free (9/9/2006 7:32:47 AM)

Here is your clarity:
Israel declared Independence on May 14, 1948,  several days later several Arab nations(Egypt, Syria, Jordan) invaded and almost conquered Israel, Israel survived however the Arabs had occupied Gaza, the West Bank, the Golan, and East Jerusalem.
In the the next 2 decades there was the Sinai war of 1956, a relatively minor war, and thousands of small single day attacks by arab countries on Israeli positions,  in addition to Arab brigands terrorizing the Negev desert settlements.
In June 1967 Egypt closed the Suez canal to Israeli shipping, effectively cutting off the majority of imported goods into Israel.  Israel knew that was a precursor to war, as both Egyptian and Syrian armies were massing on it's borders, Israel launched a pre-emptive strike designed to force Egypt to reconsider it's decision and reopen the Suez, in a staggering operation Israel nearly wiped out the Egyptian air force while it was still on the ground.  The following 6 days was one of the most impressive military accomplishments of all times as Israel liberated the Golan, Gaza, West bank, and the old city in Jerusalem.  While also forcing Egpyt out of the Sinai peninsula.
in the following years Egypt launched the war of attrition, a massive artillery war fought over the Suez canal, many on both sides were killed
In October of 1973, a suprise invasion by Egpyt and Syria launched the Yom Kippur War, Israel was pushed back on almost every front, until they were able to catch their breath and push back the much larger(and better equipped) arab armies, resulting in a solid defeat of both countries, When the dust settled both Cairo and Damascus were within Israeli artillery range, and the entire Egyptian third Army was surrounded inside Egpyt by (then) General Ariel Sharion. Both sides of the Suez were firmly under Israeli control. The cease fire ceded all land up to the pre-war borders back to the arabs.
Since then it has been a terror war energized by Yasser Arafat and the PLO.
quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressWolfen

quote:

ORIGINAL: NavyDDG54

I didnt want to start a session on either, as I posted earlier, I was simply trying to help people to recognize that our country has been under attack for decades.


Perhaps an unbiased and historically accurate presentation of the facts would strengthen your positon? In regard to your country being under "attack" for decades please include your sources to support this statement, this would allow me a deeper understanding of your ascertation. As mediators say "a mere ascertation is not sufficient to prove the existence of a dispute". I am not agreeing or disagreeing with you, just asking for clarity and substance.



NavyDDG54 -> RE: Freedom Isnt Free (9/9/2006 7:34:09 AM)

Soldiers are military targets and therefore are legitimate and LEGAL during a time of war, which Israel was under.
quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

...so no link then...leading me to the inescapable conclusion that pro-zionist terrorists illegally blew up British soldiers, and that eventually a terrorist campaign was stopped by negotiation.



NavyDDG54 -> RE: Freedom Isnt Free (9/9/2006 7:35:21 AM)

that historical account I gave was from http://www.mideastweb.org/briefhistory.htm which provides much more detail that I was able to convey in that post



MistressWolfen -> RE: Freedom Isnt Free (9/9/2006 7:36:23 AM)

ahhh I see, I had foolishly assumed you were a citizen of the United States of America, not the nation of Israel. So you have sorted that, thanks.



NavyDDG54 -> RE: Freedom Isnt Free (9/9/2006 7:37:10 AM)

I am a citizen of America, I am also a Jew

quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressWolfen

ahhh I see, I had foolishly assumed you were a citizen of the United States of America, not the nation of Israel. So you have sorted that, thanks.



philosophy -> RE: Freedom Isnt Free (9/9/2006 7:39:20 AM)

"Soldiers are military targets and therefore are legitimate and LEGAL during a time of war, which Israel was under."

...er......there was no such state of Israel, and therefore no entity capable of declaring war,  when the pro-zionist terrorists killed British servicemen via the cowardly use of a bomb. i suggest you do Israel no favours by attempting to justify the unjustifiable......



NavyDDG54 -> RE: Freedom Isnt Free (9/9/2006 7:41:41 AM)

how else were they supposed to fight? they had no other weapons that would have been effective. They were fighting for independence, and targeted legitimate targets in that effort. They did not kill target innocent people



MistressWolfen -> RE: Freedom Isnt Free (9/9/2006 7:44:19 AM)

Thank you for sharing NavyDDG54.



NavyDDG54 -> RE: Freedom Isnt Free (9/9/2006 7:44:58 AM)

you are welcome MistressWolfen



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