Structure/Boundaries VS Discipline (Full Version)

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BitaTruble -> Structure/Boundaries VS Discipline (9/9/2006 1:43:08 AM)

Rather than highjack a rather interesting thread in the Master's forum, I thought I'd post this here to get some thoughts from fellow submissives/slaves.

It was stated that the average submissive seeks discipline in their relationships and, perhaps this is just semantics, but it's my desire for structure and boundaries, rather than discipline from an outside source (as opposed to self discipline) even if that source is Himself.

For me, needing (or craving) to be disciplined would point out a flaw that I am not anticipating the needs/desires/wants of Himself therefore require some sort of further guidance in a particular area and discipline would be the end result of failing to live up to an expectation already established.

After all these years, I don't believe it should be my goal to take steps backwards, but rather to continue along a path of growth within the boundaries Himself sets for me with his consistancy of word and deed and I appreciate structure very much without any blurred lines. If ABC are ok for me today, having them be ok for me tomorrow increases my security level, enhances my service and lends me to calmness rather than the chaos which could ensue if ABC suddenly were 'wrong' and required discipline.

I do believe there are times in which discipline is necessary, especially after a relationship has been established, but before it has had enough time to mellow .. that point where someone in service can, truly, anticipate and carry out the execution of their service as to be most pleasing to their owner/Top etc. because they have come to know them so well.

That said, I have not purposefully sought a discipline dynamic in my own relationship with Himself, but rather quite the opposite where discipline is something to be avoided.. a rare thing because it's unnecessary if my service is adequate and pleasing (though I do strive for exceptional!)

So, what say you? Structure and boundaries.. or discipline? Which did you/do you seek in your relationship with an owner/Master? Do you see them as different or is it just semantics and they are really the same?

Celeste



ayasha -> RE: Structure/Boundaries VS Discipline (9/9/2006 6:27:56 AM)

one loves the structure and boundaries - but..............nobody is perfect, and discipline and punishment both can serve a purpose.  Personally, this one will test the limits, test the boundaries until one knows they will be enforced.  No, this is not obedient or respectful - but if He isn't going to be able to control this girl, then this girl can not respect Him.  It comes from past life experiences that this one has to 'know' that He has the control, and will make sure He has it before totally submitting.  Again, might not be right - but it is how this one is - it doesn't make one any less of a slave because one tests Him in the beginning. 



Mercnbeth -> RE: Structure/Boundaries VS Discipline (9/9/2006 7:01:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble
...It was stated that the average submissive seeks discipline in their relationships and, perhaps this is just semantics, but it's my desire for structure and boundaries, rather than discipline from an outside source (as opposed to self discipline) even if that source is Himself.

For me, needing (or craving) to be disciplined would point out a flaw that I am not anticipating the needs/desires/wants of Himself therefore require some sort of further guidance in a particular area and discipline would be the end result of failing to live up to an expectation already established...


depending on which verb form of discipline you are talking about, the "discipline" that each individual submissive seeks could be the one that teaches, guides & instructs...or the one that punishes, castigates or penalizes...or both.

quote:

After all these years, I don't believe it should be my goal to take steps backwards, but rather to continue along a path of growth within the boundaries Himself sets for me with his consistancy of word and deed and I appreciate structure very much without any blurred lines. If ABC are ok for me today, having them be ok for me tomorrow increases my security level, enhances my service and lends me to calmness rather than the chaos which could ensue if ABC suddenly were 'wrong' and required discipline.


this part is a bit confusing.  How does an inconsistency with ABC being ok today but suddenly not ok tomorrow and requiring discipline have anything to do with the structure and boundaries you have come to operate under and feel comfort with over time?


quote:

...So, what say you? Structure and boundaries.. or discipline?  Do you see them as different or is it just semantics and they are really the same?...


to this slave:
structure is creating, building, giving form to something and boundaries are the borders, edges and limits of that structure.  without discipline, that structure might deteriorate.
 
discipline is teaching, guiding and instructing another as to the structure's form and its boundaries, with a potential to use chastisement(punishment or discipline if you rather) in some form as a learning tool or behavior modifier.

quote:

...Which did you seek in a relationship with an Owner/Master?...


neither...but this slave didn't seek to be an owned slave, either.[:)]



subsa -> RE: Structure/Boundaries VS Discipline (9/9/2006 7:17:37 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

Rather than highjack a rather interesting thread in the Master's forum, I thought I'd post this here to get some thoughts from fellow submissives/slaves.

It was stated that the average submissive seeks discipline in their relationships and, perhaps this is just semantics, but it's my desire for structure and boundaries, rather than discipline from an outside source (as opposed to self discipline) even if that source is Himself.

For me, needing (or craving) to be disciplined would point out a flaw that I am not anticipating the needs/desires/wants of Himself therefore require some sort of further guidance in a particular area and discipline would be the end result of failing to live up to an expectation already established.

After all these years, I don't believe it should be my goal to take steps backwards, but rather to continue along a path of growth within the boundaries Himself sets for me with his consistancy of word and deed and I appreciate structure very much without any blurred lines. If ABC are ok for me today, having them be ok for me tomorrow increases my security level, enhances my service and lends me to calmness rather than the chaos which could ensue if ABC suddenly were 'wrong' and required discipline.

I do believe there are times in which discipline is necessary, especially after a relationship has been established, but before it has had enough time to mellow .. that point where someone in service can, truly, anticipate and carry out the execution of their service as to be most pleasing to their owner/Top etc. because they have come to know them so well.

That said, I have not purposefully sought a discipline dynamic in my own relationship with Himself, but rather quite the opposite where discipline is something to be avoided.. a rare thing because it's unnecessary if my service is adequate and pleasing (though I do strive for exceptional!)

So, what say you? Structure and boundaries.. or discipline? Which did you/do you seek in your relationship with an owner/Master? Do you see them as different or is it just semantics and they are really the same?

Celeste

first i think we need to make sure we're talkng about the same things (semantics).  in our dynamic, Master helps me to define what is is that i want to work on in my life.  these are the boundaries (my limitations)we are working on together.  right now its somewhat physical... to become more physically fit and to improve my posture. but it has also been to change my attitudes about certain things or to push my sexual limits.  He uses discipline to help me achieve my goals.  i keep a food/exercise journal, we have weekly assessments of my status.  when He sees me slouching He reminds me to sit up straight, He'll call or e-mail in the day to ask me if i am sitting up straight. 
punishment is reserved for serious offenses to our rules (not anticipating or responding to His needs/wants/desires).  the above are not rules they are theboundaries.  and punishment is usually withdrawal of his attention. i get ignored, we don't play.  He reads or goes on the computer.   this could be for an hour , an evening or a couple of days depending on how serious of an infraction has been committed.  physical acts (spanking, flogging, bondage etc...) are never punishments.  i like those things; using them as punishments would only encourage bad behavior. 



juliaoceania -> RE: Structure/Boundaries VS Discipline (9/9/2006 7:31:21 AM)

Neither and both?

We are not highly structured people. He is rather spontaneous and not a creature of routine. He does not expect me to be either. I try to anticipate his needs, and there are some ways he is teaching me to do that, but for the most part he is very easy going.

He admires my self discipline I have exhibited in my life. I will sit and  stick to something until I get it done. I am able to structure my own day. I do not need this in a dominant, and if a dominant was very structured I do not believe I would thrive this way. These were things we discussed at length, the kind of person he was and what he required of a submissive.

Discipline means learning, not that I have failed and not that there is something “wrong”. He disciplines me to make me more pleasing to him, and perhaps that will not be needed in the future, but I am not afraid of it, and I actually welcome it if it makes me a better submissive. I can always become better than I am. If he sees something that can be better, and he wants me to change, well  then I want to embrace this.

We both believe in working hard, giving back to our community, being timely, being responsible… but we are just laid back people,  and well suited. He would not suit someone who needed a lot of structure, I wouldn’t suit someone who demanded it of me…



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Structure/Boundaries VS Discipline (9/9/2006 7:43:54 AM)

It sounds like you're using "discipline" as "reactionary action towards you to correct behavior"?

For me discipline IS controlled behavior.  How you are using "discipline" is what I would call "feedback."

Unfortunately discipline is a complex word-

I AM disciplined when I put my clothes away correctly.

I AM disciplined when I don't put my clothes away correctly.

In the first sentence, disciplined means "I am controlling my behavior correctly and showing the trait of discipline within myself."  This is how *I* use the word discipline.

In the second sentence, disciplined means "Someone gave me a particular form of feedback due to my lack of correct behavior."  I tend to use a word OTHER than discipline here to describe the particular method of behavioral training.

Anyway, all adults need discipline, even children need discipline once they have the motor and brain functions to understand it.  As so many subs and slaves are perfectionists who thrive on feedback and getting the job done right, discipline can be like our drug.



ownedgirlie -> RE: Structure/Boundaries VS Discipline (9/9/2006 8:02:48 AM)

Hi Celeste :)

I found myself thinking the same as some others thought - it depends on how you are defining discipline.  I believe discipline is necessary to stay within the boundaries of the relationship.  However, the nature of that discipline changes.  As I learn from him, I am disciplined.  This is not punishment, unless I have committed a crime against him/the relationship.  He will always differentiate, the two - discipline from punishment. 

We are not so structured.  There are certain standing orders I must always keep, unless he deems otherwise (ie; when my Dad died, he immediately told me all assignments and orders were rescinded until he felt I was back on my feet, yet I could continue to do all or any of them if doing so provided me comfort).  I believe that is the structure you are talking about.  My boundaries are clear and always known.  If I am uncertain at any time, I may ask.  Boundaries include behaviors, actions, tones, choice of words, thoughts, goals, etc.  Living within these boundaries has enhanced my life greatly, and has served him well.  However, I needed discipline to learn the boundaries. 

Learning such boundaries required discipline - first his, in teaching me.  Then mine, in practicing them.  These days, much of this comes second nature.  One could say "Look how disciplined she is for doing such n such" but the truth is, I'm no longer "working" to do such n such, I just do it, so is it really a demonstration of self-discipline, or is it simply second nature?   Those things that do not yet come naturally and without effort continue to require discipline.  Those very difficult things that cause me struggle may find cause for him to discipline me to further teach me.  He will tell me, "I am not angry with you; I am teaching you."  He will see my efforts and desire to get it right, therefore there is no need to punish; rather I need correction and direction.  Two different things.

I hope this made sense - I feel like I was all over the board.  Having trouble with words these days...



Bearlee -> RE: Structure/Boundaries VS Discipline (9/9/2006 10:12:42 AM)

Celeste, is it possible to be related to someone you’ve never met?  LOL  Are you the long-lost sister I never had?  How IS it you always know exactly how I feel???
 
Yes…Structure and Boundaries!  It is the control I seek, not punishment.  And I don’t mean ‘control’ in a domineering sense, either, but control through structure, guidance and with boundaries firmly in place.  I am an adult, I am a pleaser…it is my nature to want to please him.  While I’m a bit of a procrastinator on my own, I have enough self discipline to strive always to do things as He wants them to be done.  I can see, perhaps, that a girl might mess up from time to time, unintentionally…but even then just a talking-to would put me back on the straight and narrow.  And, as you said Celeste, these ‘slip-ups’ would decline dramatically as a girl came to know and better understand the Dominant she strove to please.
 
I see S/m play as just that; PLAY.  I’m not about getting spanked for actual punishment.  I want BDSM in my life, even my every day life…but as adults who enjoy playing together.  If I were with someone and wanted a good flogging or perhaps to be welted with a cane or to be beat bloody with a single-tail…then I’ll ask for just that.  The whole idea of being ‘bad’ for punishment seems…well…deceitful, no?
 
Thank you for yet another wonderful post, Celeste!
 
beverly


Edited to add:

Okay, seems every single post above me said more about exactly how I feel and what I meant to say...and much better, to boot. 
 
Words...ain't they GRAND?            ...what they said...(read UP)



BitaTruble -> RE: Structure/Boundaries VS Discipline (9/9/2006 11:14:10 AM)

To clarify: The post in the other thread used 'discipline' as it relates to punishment. I apologize for not making that clearer.

Celeste



BitaTruble -> RE: Structure/Boundaries VS Discipline (9/9/2006 11:24:25 AM)




quote:

quote:

After all these years, I don't believe it should be my goal to take steps backwards, but rather to continue along a path of growth within the boundaries Himself sets for me with his consistancy of word and deed and I appreciate structure very much without any blurred lines. If ABC are ok for me today, having them be ok for me tomorrow increases my security level, enhances my service and lends me to calmness rather than the chaos which could ensue if ABC suddenly were 'wrong' and required discipline.


quote:

this part is a bit confusing.  How does an inconsistency with ABC being ok today but suddenly not ok tomorrow and requiring discipline have anything to do with the structure and boundaries you have come to operate under and feel comfort with over time?

 
I'm sorry, Beth, but it's my turn to be confused. I'm afraid I'm not quite grasping the question so I'm going to answer as to what I 'think' you are asking and if it is inadequate, let me know and I'll try to clarify myself when I truly understand your question.
 
I can only serve one who allows me to do so. That allowance requires my learning 'how' to serve him. I do that with the knowledge he gives me and if something changes and it is not communicated to me, the lines (boundaries) are blurred and my service will become less than ideal. Such does not happen because Himself is a firm believer in keeping the lines of communication open and while he expects me to be able to anticipate, he does not expect me to be a mind reader. If he did expect such, he'd be sorely disappointed. I may be a bit empathic, but I'm not telepathic.
 
Celeste





sublizzie -> RE: Structure/Boundaries VS Discipline (9/9/2006 12:47:45 PM)

I tend to agree with bearlee, though not when it comes to SM. I want boundaries, clear guideslines, rules & regulations. I'm not looking for so much structure I suffocate, but I want to know what to expect and what is expected of me. I like consistency. I like knowing that what I am doing is pleasing the other person. I also want to know if it's not pleasing so I won't do it anymore!

OTOH, I don't particularly like SM play. I will do it to please, but it's not something I crave.



catize -> RE: Structure/Boundaries VS Discipline (9/9/2006 4:05:38 PM)

quote:

It was stated that the average submissive seeks discipline in their relationships   


To clarify: The post in the other thread used 'discipline' as it relates to punishment. I apologize for not making that clearer.

Celeste


First, what is an average submissive?
Second, does the statement refer to physical punishment?
I believe it is true that masochistic submissives crave pain.  Some confuse things by trying to justify giving or receiving pain under the guise of punishment, rather than accepting that in an S+M relationship pain is reward. 
I love pain.  I do not wish to be punished because that means I have failed in some part of  my submissiion.  I believe that submission means one desires to do their best. 



behindmirrors -> RE: Structure/Boundaries VS Discipline (9/9/2006 4:09:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

Rather than highjack a rather interesting thread in the Master's forum, I thought I'd post this here to get some thoughts from fellow submissives/slaves.

It was stated that the average submissive seeks discipline in their relationships and, perhaps this is just semantics, but it's my desire for structure and boundaries, rather than discipline from an outside source (as opposed to self discipline) even if that source is Himself.

For me, needing (or craving) to be disciplined would point out a flaw that I am not anticipating the needs/desires/wants of Himself therefore require some sort of further guidance in a particular area and discipline would be the end result of failing to live up to an expectation already established.

After all these years, I don't believe it should be my goal to take steps backwards, but rather to continue along a path of growth within the boundaries Himself sets for me with his consistancy of word and deed and I appreciate structure very much without any blurred lines. If ABC are ok for me today, having them be ok for me tomorrow increases my security level, enhances my service and lends me to calmness rather than the chaos which could ensue if ABC suddenly were 'wrong' and required discipline.

I do believe there are times in which discipline is necessary, especially after a relationship has been established, but before it has had enough time to mellow .. that point where someone in service can, truly, anticipate and carry out the execution of their service as to be most pleasing to their owner/Top etc. because they have come to know them so well.

That said, I have not purposefully sought a discipline dynamic in my own relationship with Himself, but rather quite the opposite where discipline is something to be avoided.. a rare thing because it's unnecessary if my service is adequate and pleasing (though I do strive for exceptional!)

So, what say you? Structure and boundaries.. or discipline? Which did you/do you seek in your relationship with an owner/Master? Do you see them as different or is it just semantics and they are really the same?

Celeste

(Italics where I wanted to highlight certain points in this to respond to, and later edited for a stupid mistake of hitting the wrong button)

For me, it is all about the structure and boundaries- I hate to be disciplined, it makes me feel terrible for doing wrong, so I avoid it at all costs. Structure, boundaries, and clear expectations of me are good for me and make me feel secure and happy in my position. To know what is okay and not okay makes me feel safe- I know what I should and should not do and it is reassuring.

I have struggled through the times these things have not been clearly laid out for me in our relationship, and though I tend to stay on the safe side to avoid even potential discipline if I know something has not been talked about. I am still waiting for the "official word" from my Dom on his full expectations for me and the structure in which I will function- right now, I go on trial and error tidbits and do my best. I have given these concerns to my Dom, and trust him on when I am ready for such a step there, though he seems pleased with the progress I have made thus far even without a clear structure.

I seek in our relationship a clearly defined "place". Meaning, I need to know where I stand and have some security in that position with him. Meaning additionally, that I need structure and guidance from him to feel reassured in my status as his submissive. I don't like to be disciplined, I like to make my Dom happy, and thus, I seek boundaries and structure instead of discipline in our relationship. Were I looking for discipline, I would feel I am doing something wrong.

I see these things as very different, and not just semantics, though the arguement could be made that discipline, when referred to this way, does not correspond to punishment as much as to "have a disciplined life"- meaning, the boundaries and structure we are discussing now are incorporated in this and that is what many submissives seek.

All just opinions.
behindmirrors.



BitaTruble -> RE: Structure/Boundaries VS Discipline (9/9/2006 5:10:38 PM)

quote:



First, what is an average submissive?


Now, that's a $64,000 question. ;) This phrase was used by a dominant on the Master's forums. (One of those generalizing statements that just doesn't apply to the vast majority of submissives with whom I'm personally acquainted.)

Threw me for a bit of a loop and was one of the reasons I started this thread. Let me know if you come up with an answer, because I haven't. ::chuckles::

quote:


Second, does the statement refer to physical punishment?


In the context of the other thread, yes, it was clear it was discipline/punishment of which that dominant was speaking.


quote:

I believe it is true that masochistic submissives crave pain.  Some confuse things by trying to justify giving or receiving pain under the guise of punishment, rather than accepting that in an S+M relationship pain is reward. 
I love pain.  I do not wish to be punished because that means I have failed in some part of  my submissiion.  I believe that submission means one desires to do their best. 


I'm in 100% agreement with the cavaet that there are, of course, exceptions to everything. ;)

Celeste




gypsygrl -> RE: Structure/Boundaries VS Discipline (9/9/2006 5:46:43 PM)

Because I'm not in a long term relationship, structure and boundaries are more important to me, and discipline/punishment are not an issue.  I doubt I would accept discipline or punishment from someone I wasn't strongly bonded to.  I'm a fanatic about structure though.

But, I do have moments where I crave punishment independant of any actions on my part.  In other words, its not about what I do but something deeper, like original sin.  I have a deep, perhaps bottomless, well of guilt that I am confident has little to do with anything I do or dont do.  Sometimes when the guilt is especially heavy, I want to do something really bad just to justify the guilt.  Conversely, I want to be punished for being good.  Or something like that.  :)

I've never incorporated this craving for punishment into a relationship, but imagine that it could be a potentially productive experiment. 



julietsierra -> RE: Structure/Boundaries VS Discipline (9/9/2006 7:16:42 PM)

Well, maybe I'm not "average," because I'm here for the obedience factor. I relish being as obedient as I can be. Hence, I don't believe discipline as defined as punishment is any kind of motivating or deterring factor for what I do. To me, in my relationship, a lack of obedience to what he wants is a choice to not submit.

When I inadvertantly do something that he doesn't want me to do, he employs a novel approach. He talks to me and tells me what he wants the next time. If I do it again, we're treading on thin ice. If I choose to do it one more time, he understand is for what it is - a choice to not submit and that's that. He'll be telling me that we're done, and I'll be expecting it.

To us, I submit because I want to - not to test his dominance, not because I'm worried about discipline, and not even because I'm concerned that if I don't, he'll walk away. I choose to submit because submitting is hot, and because I LOVE the feeling being obedient gives me. I live my submission.

He dominates from that same mind set. He doesn't dominate me because he's worried that if he doesn't I'll walk away. He dominates because he loves and lives his dominance.

We work well together because we have a common frame of reference and a common belief in what it means to be in a D/s relationship. This doesn't mean anyone or everyone else is wrong, it only means that we're really right for each other.

juliet



Mercnbeth -> RE: Structure/Boundaries VS Discipline (9/10/2006 5:13:09 AM)

quote:

 
I'm sorry, Beth, but it's my turn to be confused. I'm afraid I'm not quite grasping the question so I'm going to answer as to what I 'think' you are asking and if it is inadequate, let me know and I'll try to clarify myself when I truly understand your question.


this slave read the two sentences that you grouped together as one paragraph and was confused as to the connection you were making between this statement:
quote:

After all these years, I don't believe it should be my goal to take steps backwards, but rather to continue along a path of growth within the boundaries Himself sets for me with his consistancy of word and deed and I appreciate structure very much without any blurred lines.

and this one:
quote:

If ABC are ok for me today, having them be ok for me tomorrow increases my security level, enhances my service and lends me to calmness rather than the chaos which could ensue if ABC suddenly were 'wrong' and required discipline.


in the structure/boundaries mode of relationship, ABC is ok for you today and tomorrow and that brings you security, enhances your service and calm.  ok, this slave gets that part.  but then you contrast, using rather, and say that chaos would ensue if ABC were "suddenly" wrong and required discipline.  it could be interpreted that you are saying "discipline" is what would cause you chaos~instead of an inconsistency with ABC being ok one day and not ok the next, which this slave could understand as chaotic regardless of if you ascribe to a discipline mode or not.
 
discipline does not infer that no communication takes place IF the rules change.
 
apologies in advance for any misconception on this slave's part of your ideas that may have occurred.[:)]



julietsierra -> RE: Structure/Boundaries VS Discipline (9/10/2006 6:20:57 AM)

Further along the whole idea that if ABC is right today and tomorrow theme,

In our relationship, ABC can be right today and wrong tomorrow and right the day after that. I'm expected (and I expect for myself) that I adjust to today, tomorrow and the day after. He's the driver of this ride. If our relationship is structured so that he must always conduct himself so as to make ABC right for me, then *I'm* in control of the relationship and ultimately him. That's not something either of us wants.

And just because someone's a masochistic submissive, doesn't make the pain associated with a disciplinary (punishment) process a positive thing. At least it isn't in our relationship. It doesn't do me a bit of good, but ultimately, it is his belief that there's no way he's forcing my obedience. If I don't want it - I always have the option to walk away. If I want this relationship with him, then I'm expected (and I expect for myself) that I'm going to follow his directions. So, being the masochistic submissive I am, I truly relish the times he plays with me. But we do this because it's right to do so and we feel good about what we're doing - not because I couldn't follow a direction.

All that being said, each of us are highly disciplined people, in terms of our emotions, our actions, our careers and our relationship with each other. But we're that way because that's the way we think. My boundaries always have at their roots, obedience. His are that he is in control of his world. I am part of that world. He is in control of me. Never the other way around. If I ever wonder about virtually anything that happens in my life, all I have to do is ask myself what he would do or expect...and I have my answer.

juliet



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