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Keeping 9/11 free of politics - 9/11/2006 9:32:18 AM   
CrappyDom


Posts: 1883
Joined: 4/11/2006
From: Sacramento
Status: offline 		Forget the fact that Bushco clings to 9/11 like a political lifepreserver and the minute they get into hot water start waving it around like some "get out of jail free" card.

quote:

  
Both the Times and the Post note this morning that Bush laid two wreaths at ground zero last night in the company of George Pataki, Mike Bloomberg, and Rudy Giuliani. The Post goes well out of its way to remark that the event "left aside the partisan rancor" that...well, that Bush & Co. have enforced on the country since about 9-14.
If this event was so nonpartisan, where were Chuck Schumer and Hillary Clinton? Neither paper makes any mention of their having been there. I'm told that in fact they were not invited (they were at St. Paul's church, where Bush went after laying the wreaths -- and where there were apparently no photographers!!). In what sense does an event that features four Republicans but excludes the two senators who were representing New York at the time of the event, but who happen to be Democrats, leave aside partisan rancor?
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RE: Keeping 9/11 free of politics - 9/11/2006 9:34:51 AM   
philosophy


Posts: 5284
Joined: 2/15/2004
Status: offline 		surely keeping 9/11 free of politics is like keeping the Olympics free of sport...........

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RE: Keeping 9/11 free of politics - 9/11/2006 9:36:46 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		As I said in the other thread- we can at least stop the political dredging dance for a few days.

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RE: Keeping 9/11 free of politics - 9/11/2006 9:42:35 AM   
CrappyDom


Posts: 1883
Joined: 4/11/2006
From: Sacramento
Status: offline 		LA,

As you love to say, we are both adults and free to choose.  You can continue to come into these threads and ask other adults to stop doing what you don't want them to be doing and those same adults will make a choice as to what to do.


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RE: Keeping 9/11 free of politics - 9/11/2006 9:45:56 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline 		Please continue...

Better to know a fool by his words than to assume him one through his silence.

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RE: Keeping 9/11 free of politics - 9/11/2006 9:49:49 AM   
CrappyDom


Posts: 1883
Joined: 4/11/2006
From: Sacramento
Status: offline 		ad homonym attack

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RE: Keeping 9/11 free of politics - 9/11/2006 9:54:01 AM   
philosophy


Posts: 5284
Joined: 2/15/2004
Status: offline 		9/11, and indeed the majority of terrorist ourages, have political causes and effects. This is not the same as party political causes and effects. When we in the UK faced IRA terrorism there was a consensus that some things transcend party politics. Doesn't mean they aren't still political, solutions will be political......but anyone party looking for advantage is in error, as are their supporters on both sides. Anyone in America looking for the War on Terror to favour either republicans or democrats has missed the point.

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RE: Keeping 9/11 free of politics - 9/11/2006 10:29:06 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CrappyDom

ad homonym attack


Only to those whose self identity is the fool.


quote:

philosophy: Doesn't mean they aren't still political, solutions will be political......but anyone party looking for advantage is in error, as are their supporters on both sides. Anyone in America looking for the War on Terror to favour either republicans or democrats has missed the point.


Agreed. The planning occurred under a Democratic President with political oversight on security monitored by a Republican Senate and House. The attack occurred under a Republican President with a similar Republican congressional majority. The history of the attack goes back though all the administrations since Jimmy Carter. None are exempt from blame. The shame and blood of innocents and the soldiers dying to "free" a people whose religion swears them allegiance to death before acceptance of any other religion is on many hands. None should use the excuse of taking too lightly a disowned disenfranchised rich boy from Saudi Arabia. It happened. Anyone using it for political gain, or as a rally cry to seek election on either side of the issue should be treated with scorn. Everyone in elected office seeking re-election should be told of the contempt we have for the path of the USA nation by a voting them out. In effect voting "NO-Confidence".

But the sound of a single repetitive note of disjointed facts, of comparisons to things 5, 10, 25, or 50 years in the past; polarizes and blurs the focus making it impossible for a forward thinking, forward planning, voice to be heard.  Instead of, "what I will do", we here; "what I would have done".

We, as citizens of the USA, were promised a platform with a plan, by the leaders of both parties. Less than two months from the election we still only here a plea for a vote based upon a platform of "why we are not like them". They make TV and movies political debate topics. That common theme illustrates and proves that fundamentally they are exactly like each other. Which is why the only vote that will provide a message is 'NO', to the entire group currently in office.

I point to the CA governor election. The choice is a made for movies character sitting as governor, or a candidate put up by the Democrats so far left of the pluralistic majority that CA State elected Democrats are distancing themselves. So of course to close the gap it isn't the issues, it's publication of a "she's hot" comment made by Schwarzenegger.

Continue with the sound of one note. It substantiates that any comment is irrelevant to read. I don't need to read the website of the KKK to know their position. I won't find any new information there. I won't think to use the KKK website if I want to point out to my children the accomplishments of African Americans. I will show them the site to show how foolish, silly, inconsequential, immaterial, and irrelevant is the sound of one repeating note.

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RE: Keeping 9/11 free of politics - 9/11/2006 10:39:08 AM   
caitlyn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy
Anyone in America looking for the War on Terror to favour either republicans or democrats has missed the point.


This is a very good quote, even if you spelled favor wrong.
 
Putting down the tunnel some of us tend to look through, it's easy enough to see alternatives to almost any position, some might call political.
 
President Bush might actually believe he is making hard and unpopular choices, and doing the right thing. The soldiers in Iraq probably believe with all their heart and soul that they are defending freedom all over the world. Most people believe that the people who died on September eleventh, were either martyrs, murderes or victims. Some feel that those that tried to rescue other from the rubble, are heros.
 
It's easy to not politicize this ... all you have to do is admit that events sometimes have legs of their own, and tend to take on their own meaning.
 
There are no crystal balls ... yet.

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RE: Keeping 9/11 free of politics - 9/11/2006 10:41:25 AM   
CrappyDom


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Joined: 4/11/2006
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Status: offline 		Merc,

Can you point out what is the Bush or Republican plan to fix the problems in Iraq?  Problems that were clear to people like myself who have no access to secret sources, no team of experts sorting through and summarizing data, no ability to call up other intelligence agencies or foreign leaders.

"Stay the course" isn't a policy because we have yet to hear a consistent definition of what the course is other than we should "stay" at it.

Perhaps it is just me, but if a party controls both the Presidency and both houses of congress there should be clarity in their purpose, we should be seeing the success of their politicies, or the rapid and effortless correction of the inevitable mistakes that all people make.  Instead we see little if any success and a refusal to correct clear mistakes.

As for the Democrats, especially those who are more level headed, Murtha's plan for a logical phased withdrawal seems to be rather widely popular.  Democrats are against torture regardless of what semantic games you want to play with it.  Democrats believe that working with other nations is more productive than working against them.  Democrats are all for keeping the Constitution intact and fighting Al Queda and bringing Osama to justice.

However, before you attack the party who isn't in power for not having a plan, don't you think it would be a bit more even handed to ask that the party in power at least adopt one?

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RE: Keeping 9/11 free of politics - 9/11/2006 10:56:30 AM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline 		How do you know there is a problem in Iraq?
President Bush may not see this as a problem. They may have weighed the cost of what they are doing over there, and decided the gain was worth the cost. I don't happen to agree, but that is a completely different issue.
 
Why isn't "stay the course" a policy?
The Administration may believe they are doing the right thing. They may feel that going against what is "popular" is what the President is supposed to do. Wasn't a big criticism of President Clinton, that he governed by polls?
 
How do you know that the party in power doesn't have a plan?
They may have an excellent plan that you and I don't agree with, but that is not the same as not having a plan.
 
Respectfully Crappy, your problem is that you are never willing to even consider any alternatives outside your own view of things. Worse still, even with people of the same views (like me for instance), whenever they try to point out possible alternatives to what you present, you throw throw them in with the other side.
 
You are impossible to debate with intelligently, which is a shame because you do seem like a very smart person.

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RE: Keeping 9/11 free of politics - 9/11/2006 10:59:27 AM   
philosophy


Posts: 5284
Joined: 2/15/2004
Status: offline 		"This is a very good quote, even if you spelled favor wrong."
 
......thanks Caitlyn........that did make me laugh :) i shall print it out and put it on the centre of something ;)

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RE: Keeping 9/11 free of politics - 9/11/2006 11:04:58 AM   
philosophy


Posts: 5284
Joined: 2/15/2004
Status: offline 		"But the sound of a single repetitive note of disjointed facts, of comparisons to things 5, 10, 25, or 50 years in the past; polarizes and blurs the focus making it impossible for a forward thinking, forward planning, voice to be heard.  Instead of, "what I will do", we here; "what I would have done". "

...couldn't agree more Merc.........it leaves those who want an effective response only one recourse, to try and build such a response from first principles. Such a course worries those in entrenched positions because those very positions are a long way from first principles. It also worries us, because if we undertake to examine an issue from first principles we run the real risk of discovering we were wrong.......however, life ought to be an intellectual adventure sometimes :)

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RE: Keeping 9/11 free of politics - 9/11/2006 11:07:10 AM   
CrappyDom


Posts: 1883
Joined: 4/11/2006
From: Sacramento
Status: offline 		Catilyn,

When you respond with something containing facts, I will respond with in kind.  I am quite possible to debate with intelligently, you should try it, you might find it interesting.


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RE: Keeping 9/11 free of politics - 9/11/2006 11:15:27 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Crappy Dom
Merc,
Can you point out what is the Bush or Republican plan to fix the problems in Iraq?  Problems that were clear to people like myself who have no access to secret sources, no team of experts sorting through and summarizing data, no ability to call up other intelligence agencies or foreign leaders.

"Stay the course" isn't a policy because we have yet to hear a consistent definition of what the course is other than we should "stay" at it.

Perhaps it is just me, but if a party controls both the Presidency and both houses of congress there should be clarity in their purpose, we should be seeing the success of their politicies, or the rapid and effortless correction of the inevitable mistakes that all people make.  Instead we see little if any success and a refusal to correct clear mistakes.

As for the Democrats, especially those who are more level headed, Murtha's plan for a logical phased withdrawal seems to be rather widely popular. Democrats are against torture regardless of what semantic games you want to play with it.  Democrats believe that working with other nations is more productive than working against them.  Democrats are all for keeping the Constitution intact and fighting Al Queda and bringing Osama to justice.
However, before you attack the party who isn't in power for not having a plan, don't you think it would be a bit more even handed to ask that the party in power at least adopt one?


Selectively you ignore history when it proves you wrong. The time line of the attack provides both sides the opportunity for action. The distinction between us is that I see that as fact. Then again, you've posted the believe that being wrong doesn't apply to you, so I applaud your consistency.

Keeping the "constitution in tact" only happens when it suits people from BOTH parties. Nixon is the poster child of Republican corruption poster child. Shouldn't a person who is disbarred in his home states and agrees for suspension from pleading a case in the Supreme Court as a plea bargain for breaking his oath to uphold the constitution be identified in name as the poster boy for the party wanting to keep the "constitution in tact"? 

My perspective of anything coming from you stems from this post: http://www.collarchat.com/m_532084/mpage_2/key_Republican/tm.htm#535001

Anyone who would identify either USA political party in such terms has a very warped sense of history and has eliminated credibility from any future argument. Your prejudicial hatred of President Bush and the Republicans shouldn't be accepted but it is because it's shared by many others. If your reference was made to any other group it would not be tolerated. I don't. I believe emotional hatred as a foundation for party platform will doom that party. Should a Democratic majority exist in either or both houses of Congress after November, I think it better an indication of how poorly President Bush and the Republican's misread the electorate regarding the illegal immigration issue, not the war status of Iraq. If the Republican's maintain a majority with all things considered, it indicates the Democrats have become irrelevant as a national party. I do not see that as a positive in ANY way.

When I have doubt about a group of people or a specific individual I tend to let their own words and actions mold my opinion. The Muslim religious leader in Iran and the elected president claim their goal is a world where the only religion is Muslim and all others are killed. - I believe them. This is the internet, I don't know you, in this instance my opinion is based similarly.

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RE: Keeping 9/11 free of politics - 9/11/2006 11:22:51 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		I am all for keeping 9-11 politics free, especially on the 5th anniversary. It is a very upsetting day, not to mention that there was a car detonated close by to where my Daddy lives today... he works at and lives next to one of the largest economic targets in the country. Now I am not afraid of terrorism, but that gave me a start today when it flashed on the news.

You know, of all days, I wish this argument wasn't happening now, what happened is still a massive hole in the hearts of so many... and the dead keep piling up in Iraq, and our troops that come home. You will hardly ever see me write a "you should" sentence, but people "should" think about it before they go spinning for political gain... ON BOTH SIDES

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 9/11/2006 11:23:54 AM >

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RE: Keeping 9/11 free of politics - 9/11/2006 11:28:01 AM   
CrappyDom


Posts: 1883
Joined: 4/11/2006
From: Sacramento
Status: offline 		Merc,

Since Republicans have failed en mass to stand up and renounce torture as a tactic,  renounce holding prisoners outide of US or international law, renounce supporting a president who clearly is operating outside of the law, abondonment of the Geneva Conventions, then I will begin to once again have respect for them.  Since they haven't, I see history looking back on them as a shameful departure and Nixon as a high water mark for moral integrity for them in the latter half of the 20th Century.

As usual, you can't help dragging Clinton into a debate on the present.  This is called misdirection, a cheesy debate tactic, don't try it on me.

quote:

  The Muslim religious leader in Iran and the elected president claim their goal is a world where the only religion is Muslim and all others are killed.


So our politicians rarely speak the truth but foriegn ones never tell things for either political advantage or simply lie to rally their base?  As a Republican, you should be familiar with both of those tactics.  I take it the fact that Iran has bought weapons from Israel and has never bothered to give WMD to Hezzbolah to use on Israel doesn't strike any sort of cognitive dissonence with you.

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RE: Keeping 9/11 free of politics - 9/11/2006 12:22:05 PM   
maybemaybenot


Posts: 2817
Joined: 9/22/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania


You know, of all days, I wish this argument wasn't happening now, what happened is still a massive hole in the hearts of so many... and the dead keep piling up in Iraq, and our troops that come home. You will hardly ever see me write a "you should" sentence, but people "should" think about it before they go spinning for political gain... ON BOTH SIDES


Nicely put, julia.

Just as Dec. 7 is not a day to argue and " hate on Roosevelt" or debate Hiroshima to our elder generation, 9/11 is to many of us. If for nothing else, for the memory of those who perished and those loved ones they left behind.

"Respect" is a word that is tossed about freely on this board. Today would be a good day to exemplify it.

                      mbmbn

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Tolerance of evil is suicide.- NYC Firefighter

When tolerance is not reciprocated, tolerance becomes surrender.

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RE: Keeping 9/11 free of politics - 9/11/2006 3:33:38 PM   
UtopianRanger


Posts: 3251
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CrappyDom

Merc,

Since Republicans have failed en mass to stand up and renounce torture as a tactic,  renounce holding prisoners outide of US or international law, renounce supporting a president who clearly is operating outside of the law, abondonment of the Geneva Conventions, then I will begin to once again have respect for them.  Since they haven't, I see history looking back on them as a shameful departure and Nixon as a high water mark for moral integrity for them in the latter half of the 20th Century.

As usual, you can't help dragging Clinton into a debate on the present.  This is called misdirection, a cheesy debate tactic, don't try it on me.

quote:

  The Muslim religious leader in Iran and the elected president claim their goal is a world where the only religion is Muslim and all others are killed.


So our politicians rarely speak the truth but foriegn ones never tell things for either political advantage or simply lie to rally their base?  As a Republican, you should be familiar with both of those tactics.  I take it the fact that Iran has bought weapons from Israel and has never bothered to give WMD to Hezzbolah to use on Israel doesn't strike any sort of cognitive dissonence with you.


Aside from what Merc is saying..... I'll just say you are entitled to post the way you want and say anything you want about either party { I myself have some very unpopular feelings and dislike both parties} - But, I personally feel all the cuss words don't serve you very well. I know just about every time I've used one and then gone back the next day or two and re-read the post....I had wished that I didn't use them.


No attack on you.....just a friendly opinion



 - R


_____________________________

"If you are going to win any battle, you have to do one thing. You have to make the mind run the body. Never let the body tell the mind what to do... the body is never tired if the mind is not tired."

-General George S. Patton


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