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RE: what is a sexual Sadist? - 9/19/2006 6:16:16 PM

CreoleCook

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quote:

ORIGINAL: EbonyFtshGoddess

MOST people that claim to a fetishist in the BDSM sense aren't truly fetishists, rather they ENJOY an activity. instead.. CLINICAL fetishists NEED said fetish to gain sexual gratification.

You mean my Legs fetish is a true fetish? SWEEEEEEEET!!!!!!!!!!!!
Yes, I have a Leg's fetish, and if you don't have legs, although my sympathies go out to you, I'm sorry, I will not have sex with you if you do not have legs.

CC

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(in reply to EbonyFtshGoddess)

Post #: 21

RE: what is a sexual Sadist? - 9/19/2006 7:44:43 PM

BrutalAntipathy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: EbonyFtshGoddess

read what i say before you attempt to *correct* me.

if you ONLY derive sexual gratification from HURTING people.. then yes you are a sadist and you are dangerous. (in the PURELY clinical sense.. and yes i did make that stipulation).

in a BDSM sense (which hopefully) you're talking about.. then i also said that there is a HUGE difference.

a TRUE CLINICAL sadist IS indeed and infact dangerous.

sociopathic.

i'm speaking purely based upon the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM IV) defintion of sadist. some things aren't touched upon in the good old merriam webster. fetishes, SM all that good stuff is classified as a mental disorder (which obviously i don't agree with.. that was my thesis at my university..).. HOWEVER.. some are rightly classified as such.

if you're sadistic in the BDSM sense then OBVIOUSLY what i said does not apply to you.

if you feel you are CLINICALLY sadistic and you have to *limit* your urges to willing participants, then i would suggest people stay the fuck away from you.

if you have sadistic TENDANCIES.. but you don't snatch unwitting victims off the street to torture them.. then are you are sadist in the BDSM sense.

NOT a sadist in the sense that inflicting pain is your ONLY source of sexual gratification.

check your facts and read the WHOLE post before you *attempt* to either engage someone OR reply.

i made obvious distinctions between the two.

you however apparently chose to ignore them.

adieu

There is a reason that sociopathy and sadism have different names. This is because a person can be one without being the other. A sociopath need not be a sadist, and a sadist need not be a sociopath. While it is true that a sociopathic sadist would be dangerous to society, one that is not sociopathic or psychotic need only exert self control in order to function in polite company. We are no more harmful, indeed less harmful, than those suffering from bipolar disorder. An anemic needs iron in order to keep their red blood cells working, a bi-polar needs lithium ( or an equivalent ) to balance their moods, and a sadist needs to inflict pain in order to gain sexual gratification....nothing more, nothing less. Only when you add some other mental disorder to the mix does it become volatile.

I have ignored nothing here, but rather tried to educate people on what some have obviously misunderstood. You are certainly free to warn people to stay the fuck away from whomever you wish. I for one would warn people to stay the fuck away from one so willingly ignorant and caustic as yourself.

(in reply to EbonyFtshGoddess)

Post #: 22

RE: what is a sexual Sadist? - 9/19/2006 8:06:13 PM

EbonyFtshGoddess

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a fetish that pertains to any ONE part of the body is called "partialism."

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Post #: 23

RE: what is a sexual Sadist? - 9/19/2006 8:36:04 PM

EbonyFtshGoddess

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once again *dear*..

i made an OBVIOUS distinction between the two.

what you're speaking of is a BDSM sadist. someone that likes to cause pain.. but HOPEFULLY wouldn't take unwilling victims.

the original's question dealt with SEXUAL SADISM.

i made a clear and evident distinction between the two.

you felt the need to internalize it and take it personal. i merely said there are sadists (in the clinical sense) that SHOULD be avoided.

i also added the caveat that in a BDSM sense.. it's just someone that loves causing THEIR SUBS (ie.. WITTING folks).. pain.

you chose to make an entirely non sequitur correlation between what i said and what you are or what you DEEM yourself to be.

what part of my saying that i TOO have sadistic tendancies did you miss?

i was merely differentiating between the two.

there is a BDSM sadist.

and there is a sadistic personality disorder.

which i HOPE you don't have... those are the sociopaths.. THOSE are the ones that snatch people off the street and torment them.

i'm all for tormenting willing boys and girls for *fun*.. it's a different breed of cat when someone NEEDS to do that for gratification.

if you can't see my BLATANT distinction which i've made from the start.

well good luck and godspeed.

but i made it rather clear.

obvious a BDSM sense is different than a full on clinical sense and i've made it CLEAR from jump street.

like someone prior in the thread said." Sensual saidist like Me tend to take great pleasure from inflicting erotic pain that causes a girls senses to reel and to induce orgasms for orgasms sakes. heheheee The other can be dangerous or not"

all i'm saying is that a BDSM sadist is ENTIRELY different than a clinical sadist. if you identify with with last..

have at it.

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Post #: 24

RE: what is a sexual Sadist? - 9/19/2006 8:52:21 PM

BrutalAntipathy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: EbonyFtshGoddess

once again *dear*..

i made an OBVIOUS distinction between the two.

what you're speaking of is a BDSM sadist. someone that likes to cause pain.. but HOPEFULLY wouldn't take unwilling victims.

the original's question dealt with SEXUAL SADISM.

i made a clear and evident distinction between the two.

you felt the need to internalize it and take it personal. i merely said there are sadists (in the clinical sense) that SHOULD be avoided.

i also added the caveat that in a BDSM sense.. it's just someone that loves causing THEIR SUBS (ie.. WITTING folks).. pain.

you chose to make an entirely non sequitur correlation between what i said and what you are or what you DEEM yourself to be.

what part of my saying that i TOO have sadistic tendancies did you miss?

i was merely differentiating between the two.

there is a BDSM sadist.

and there is a sadistic personality disorder.

which i HOPE you don't have... those are the sociopaths.. THOSE are the ones that snatch people off the street and torment them.

i'm all for tormenting willing boys and girls for *fun*.. it's a different breed of cat when someone NEEDS to do that for gratification.

if you can't see my BLATANT distinction which i've made from the start.

well good luck and godspeed.

but i made it rather clear.

obvious a BDSM sense is different than a full on clinical sense and i've made it CLEAR from jump street.

like someone prior in the thread said." Sensual saidist like Me tend to take great pleasure from inflicting erotic pain that causes a girls senses to reel and to induce orgasms for orgasms sakes. heheheee The other can be dangerous or not"

all i'm saying is that a BDSM sadist is ENTIRELY different than a clinical sadist. if you identify with with last..

have at it.

And yet again, you fail to get the point, so I will spell it out as clearly as I possibly can. I AM a SADIST. I gain sexual gratification ONLY from the INFLICTION of PAIN and HUMILIATION upon others, and arousal from similar ideations. By the TEXTBOOK DEFINITION this makes ME aa sadist. And DESPITE the FACT that I gain sexual gratification from this and ONLY THIS, I have managed to function in society for 4 decades without incarceration due to abducting, torturing, mutilating, or otherwise seriously harming anyone. Are you with me so far? I know you are a bit slow, so lets give that a moment to soak in.

Long enough? Good. Now, despite the fact that I am a TEXTBOOK CLINICAL sadist, I do NOT abduct people off of the street. That is NOT SADISM! That would be some other form of mania or psychosis. This is why there are DIFFERENT DIAGNOSES for ENTIRELY DIFFERENT DISORDERS. A sadist with no other mental disorders to impede his or her judgement is quite capable of thriving in the world, except for the occasional run in with IGNORANT TWITS that remain WILLINGLY IGNORANT and CONTINUE to spread BLATANT FALSEHOODS about sadism.

CAN WE STOP WITH THE CAPS LOCK NOW?

(in reply to EbonyFtshGoddess)

Post #: 25

RE: what is a sexual Sadist? - 9/19/2006 9:05:07 PM

Emperor1956

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FastReply so as not to reply to any one person. I figured we'd get around to the DSM "clinical" definition issue fairly quickly. I pretty much agree with Brutal Antipathy when he says "sadism" is inherently sexual. That is the definition. (I deplore Brutal Anitpathy's ad hominem attack on EbonyFtshGoddess (is an ad hominen attack on a woman possible? but I digress...) I also deplore her smarmy replies to him. Why don't you two get a room and thrash this out away from the message board?)

The term "sexual sadism" is one that many (including Me at times) use to distinguish our kink from the psychopathic sadism of a Ted Bundy or a Jeffery Daumer (to name two). Someone who gets off on spanking, slapping, whipping, clamping etc. (i.e. someone like ME) being lumped in with the psychopath/sociopath doesn't seem....well...kosher. (Ok, that may have been a bad choice of words after referencing Daumer). So we call what we do "sexual sadism" to make a distinction from WIIWD vs the really evil psycho killer.

But the differences, of course, are first, consent. And second, although We may be sexually charged when we inflict pain, we are also extraordinarily concious of exactly how much damage We are doing and when we back off, and when we stop. Clinically diagnosed sadists don't have those safety valves.

Finally, to those who post flowery notes about how they are sexual sadists because they temper pain with pleasure and induce orgasms of joy and yada yada yada: First, you can call yourself anything you want, but in fact that has nothing to do with EITHER the clinical definition or the "'57 Chevy" B/D/S/M definition; second, if you read the transcripts of conversations with sadists about their crimes, they'll tell you that their victims loved them and adored what the mutilator/killer did to them and they saw arousal and lust in the face of each poor soul they murdered. So how are you any different than they are?

E.

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"What's for breakfast? What do you say, Piglet?"
"I say, I wonder what's going to happen exciting today?"
Pooh nodded thoughtfully.
"It's the same thing," he said.

(in reply to CreoleCook)

Post #: 26

RE: what is a sexual Sadist? - 9/19/2006 10:00:41 PM

EbonyFtshGoddess

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>>yawn<<

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Post #: 27

RE: what is a sexual Sadist? - 9/19/2006 10:13:52 PM

BrutalAntipathy

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Thank you, Emperor. And seeing as that someone at least has shown a degree of tolerance concerning this, I will try and elaborate a bit on the subject without being uncivil.

Sadism falls under the heading of paraphilia. Paraphilias are not normally considered to be psychotic or sociopathic. In fact, everyone in any alternative lifestyle is considered by a clinical psychologist to be paraphilias. There are 3 levels of paraphilia. The first is called optional paraphilia. These people are the types that may seek to enhance thier sex lives with a bit of kink. I refer to BDSM optional paraphilias as weekend ass slappers. The second level is called preferred paraphilia. As the name implies, these people prefer their kink over more mainstream sex. The final level is called exclusive paraphilia. These people, and I am one of them, are incapable of of becoming aroused without their particular kink.

Optionals seldom have trouble in society, unless they have a puritanical lover that discovers their kink and is revolted by it. Preferreds often have trouble in ' normal ' relationships unless theiy have an open partner and good communication with them. Exclusives have a hellish time with vanilla relationships ( I was celibate in my 3 year vanilla marriage ), tend to self isolate, and have dificulty finding partners that share their tastes. However, none of this will cause a paraphilia to engage in illegal activity. Homosexuality is considered a form of paraphilia, and yet homosexuals are statisticaly less likely to rape than hetrosexuals.

Dahmer's clinical diagnosis was erotophonophilia, also called lust murder. Bundy was diagnosed with the rather broad term psychopathic disorder. Neither of them was ever diagnosed as sadistic paraphilia. As their actions, as well as the actions of many others, seem to loosely fall into what people consider sadism, it is usually the case that people ignorant ( and I mean by this uneducated about the subject ) of the various conditions erroniously proclaim the psychopath to be a sadist, then make claims such as the ones above about how dangerous sadists are.

(in reply to Emperor1956)

Post #: 28

RE: what is a sexual Sadist? - 9/19/2006 10:16:57 PM

EbonyFtshGoddess

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i actually agree with most that you say.. well pretty much all.

at the same time. i made a clear distinction between the two.

given that i wouldn't doubt the fact that some predatory sadists lurk pretty much everywhere.

i have no desire to get a room with the other gentleman.

if he identifies himself with as a TRUE clinical sadist then so be it. to me someone that does that or identifies with that is no different than a serial killer that says they DENY themselves from harming people or a pedo (not saying that ANYONE here is).. that says.. ok, i like kids, i like to harm kids.. but i keep it in check.

if someone ONLY gets off on truly harming others. and that's their primary source of gratification.. then so be it.

like the other "gentleman" said.. "I have always managed to keep the infliction of pain under control and limit myself to willing partners."

that right there says he's not a sadist in the truest sense. because he made the stipulation that he LIMITS himself to WILLING partners.

i MERELY said that people that are truly sadistic wouldn't give two fucks if someone was willing or not..

and once again i said THOSE are the sociopaths.. and THOSE are the ones that should be avoided.

for the most part.. MOST of us here are BDSM sadists. not true sadists in the utterly wrong sense.

and this isn't me being dogmatic.. rather me saying there are two sides of one coin. like i said before

if someone wants to identify with one side of said coin or the other.

well that's on them. and yes, an ad hominem attack can be leveled at either man or woman. it's meant for mankind as a whole.. not gender specific

< Message edited by EbonyFtshGoddess -- 9/19/2006 10:17:26 PM >

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RE: what is a sexual Sadist? - 9/19/2006 10:35:09 PM

EbonyFtshGoddess

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quote:

Paraphilias are not normally considered to be psychotic or sociopathic

normally by who?.. would biastophlilia be considered psychotic?..

of course it would be.

let's face it.. paraphilias by MOST are considered wrong. at the same time i dont agree with that heading but clinically.. YES they are.

you took my distinction between clinical vs a BDSM sense and felt "well i have 60 people that are in my care" so obviously she's wrong.. ok who said this was about you? obviously you felt the need to relate to my comments and correlate them to yourself .. hey.. have at it.

i merely made the distinction between a clinical sadist definition (the people to be avoided) and the BDSM sense.

once again.. read the whole post before you respond.

i do love your varying levels of paraphilias.. rather amusing.

there is only ONE clinical definition of a paraphilia- anything else is a BDSM interpretation thereof...ie fetish, which falls under a HUGE umbrella.

as far as dahmer or whomever else. they weren't ONLY what most would call lust murderers.

quote:

Dahmer's clinical diagnosis was erotophonophilia, also called lust murder. Bundy was diagnosed with the rather broad term psychopathic disorder. Neither of them was ever diagnosed as sadistic paraphilia. As their actions, as well as the actions of many others, seem to loosely fall into what people consider sadism, it is usually the case that people ignorant ( and I mean by this uneducated about the subject ) of the various conditions erroniously proclaim the psychopath to be a sadist, then make claims such as the ones above about how dangerous sadists are.

yes.. that is a sadistic act to cause pain to another for one's own gratification.. sorry, nothing erroneous there. just because a few people fall under a few different classifications.. does NOT mean they cannot fall under more than one.

ok, so the aforementioned DO fall under XYZ umbrellas... doesn't negate the fact that they were sadists and can fall under more than one.

they were sadists in the sociopathic sense in that they had NO remorse or *human* empathy for their victims.

hmm... so you're saying you're a self proclaimed clinical sadist and self proclaimed misogynist?

mmm ok.

sounds like my kinda dom.

err not

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Post #: 30

RE: what is a sexual Sadist? - 9/19/2006 10:57:30 PM

Lordandmaster

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Yes, unfortunately.

Maybe we can simplify?

A sadist is someone who is sexually aroused by the suffering of others. (You don't have to say "sexual sadist"; it's redundant.)

Some people think it's abnormal to be sexually aroused by the suffering of others, and therefore categorize sadism as a kind of disorder.

Some people--not necessarily the same people--distinguish between (1) those who are sexually aroused by the suffering of others, but are also aroused by all kinds of other sexual stimulants, and (2) those who are sexually aroused ONLY by the suffering of others. This is where terms like "fetish," "perversion," and so on sometimes come in. If someone cannot be sexually aroused EXCEPT through the suffering of others, that person fits the classical definition of a "pervert," whereas people who just casually get off on watching other people suffer are not considered "perverted."

Then there are people who prefer to keep all the pseudo-psychiatry out of it, and just say that a sadist is someone who is sexually aroused by the suffering of other people. It works for me.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Emperor1956

I figured we'd get around to the DSM "clinical" definition issue fairly quickly.

(in reply to Emperor1956)

Post #: 31

RE: what is a sexual Sadist? - 9/19/2006 11:07:19 PM

Sinergy

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Hello A/all,

I have spent most of my adult life learning how to hurt people.

But the conclusion I came to a long time ago is that I really am
only interested in hurting people I like and who want me to hurt them.

Just me, could be wrong, etc.

Sinergy

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(in reply to LillieRose)

Post #: 32

RE: what is a sexual Sadist? - 9/20/2006 12:34:16 AM

BrutalAntipathy

Posts: 412
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quote:

ORIGINAL: EbonyFtshGoddess

quote:

Paraphilias are not normally considered to be psychotic or sociopathic

normally by who?.. would biastophlilia be considered psychotic?..

of course it would be.

let's face it.. paraphilias by MOST are considered wrong. at the same time i dont agree with that heading but clinically.. YES they are.

you took my distinction between clinical vs a BDSM sense and felt "well i have 60 people that are in my care" so obviously she's wrong.. ok who said this was about you? obviously you felt the need to relate to my comments and correlate them to yourself .. hey.. have at it.

i merely made the distinction between a clinical sadist definition (the people to be avoided) and the BDSM sense.

once again.. read the whole post before you respond.

i do love your varying levels of paraphilias.. rather amusing.

there is only ONE clinical definition of a paraphilia- anything else is a BDSM interpretation thereof...ie fetish, which falls under a HUGE umbrella.

as far as dahmer or whomever else. they weren't ONLY what most would call lust murderers.

quote:

Dahmer's clinical diagnosis was erotophonophilia, also called lust murder. Bundy was diagnosed with the rather broad term psychopathic disorder. Neither of them was ever diagnosed as sadistic paraphilia. As their actions, as well as the actions of many others, seem to loosely fall into what people consider sadism, it is usually the case that people ignorant ( and I mean by this uneducated about the subject ) of the various conditions erroniously proclaim the psychopath to be a sadist, then make claims such as the ones above about how dangerous sadists are.

yes.. that is a sadistic act to cause pain to another for one's own gratification.. sorry, nothing erroneous there. just because a few people fall under a few different classifications.. does NOT mean they cannot fall under more than one.

ok, so the aforementioned DO fall under XYZ umbrellas... doesn't negate the fact that they were sadists and can fall under more than one.

they were sadists in the sociopathic sense in that they had NO remorse or *human* empathy for their victims.

hmm... so you're saying you're a self proclaimed clinical sadist and self proclaimed misogynist?

mmm ok.

sounds like my kinda dom.

err not

When YOU are saying that, as you put it, clinical sadists are dangerous, I take it as about me. Would you not be offended if some idiot were seriously proposing that all dom/mes murdered children? Of course you would. And yet I am supposed to sit idle while you perpetuate a misconception about clinical sadism? I don't think so!

You seek to differentiate between clinical and bdsm sadism, but the difference you propose does not exist. There is one and only one form of sadism, but there are degrees of sadism, which you seem to find amusing despite this being the way it is viewed in psychology. I didn't invent the levels. Hell, run a search on them and see for yourself. The people that claim to be sadists, but then go on to say something to the effect of " I don't get off on causing pain, but rather the reaction of my partner when I cause him/her pain. " are NOT sadists.

Now, for any of you that are NOT wishing to remain ignorant of this, I will add a couple of links that cover the basics of paraphilia. Please note that the link to the University of Cali Santa Barbra link only details the danger of pedophilia, while treating sadism like the various other forms. Also note that the Merck Manual link mentions extreme forms early on, which indicates degrees or levels of paraphilia. I am sure that some of you are so biased that you will remain blissfully ignorant and continue to spread harmful lies regardless of what universities and respectable medical manuals say about it, but hopefully the reasonable readers will display an ounce of sensibility in this matter.

http://www.soc.ucsb.edu/sexinfo/?article=activity&refid=014

http://www.merck.com/mmhe/sec07/ch104/ch104c.html

(in reply to EbonyFtshGoddess)

Post #: 33

RE: what is a sexual Sadist? - 9/20/2006 1:09:54 AM

Mavis

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BA, i have questions now. i used to think i had a handle on it!

Ok, so sadism is Always related to sexual arousal or satisfaction, or is there a form of clinical sadist that just derrives pleasure, although not sexual, from inflicting pain?

In the same vein.. what about pre-pubescent sadists.. i know male infants can have erections when nursing, but it isn't actually sexual arousal. If a pre-pubescent is getting off on sun-ray-burning ants and is truly delighted with the ants perceived misery.. is that sadism in the strict sense, even absent sexual feelings from the act?    Or is that person going to associate his or her sexuality to it eventually upon entering puberty?

i do understand the fetish definition meaning the target item must be present to achieve satisfaction in all cases,   i understand a clinical sadist would need infliction of pain to be present for sexual release..   but my impression was that "Consent" by it's very nature would turn the "true clinical" sadist off.. that the pain inflicted must include resistance to the pain as well.. is that incorrect?

i've always been under the impression that the BDSM term "sadist" is not accurate at all, because of the consent thing..but maybe i have been wrong all along. i haven't investigated this subject much because it kinda scares me.  it bumps up against what i believe about the word, and the people i know who claim it, and it doesn't mesh, and i'm afraid if i truly understood, i'd have to be afraid of a lot of my friends!

to make it easier to answer, questions are:

sexual vs non-sexual
sexual maturity in the sadist
the effect of consent

(in reply to BrutalAntipathy)

Post #: 34

RE: what is a sexual Sadist? - 9/20/2006 10:31:33 AM

EbonyFtshGoddess

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From: Hollywood Hills, CA
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BrutalAntipathy:

quote:

When YOU are saying that, as you put it, clinical sadists are dangerous, I take it as about me.

if the shoe fits...

quote:

Would you not be offended if some idiot were seriously proposing that all dom/mes murdered children?

only about as offended as i'd be if an idiot was claiming that clinical sadists are not dangerous people. you're comparing apples and oranges. of course dominants don't go around murdering children.. sadists, in the purely clinical sense, is a whole other ball of wax and therefore not an accurate comparison. you can't take two totally different things then feebly attempt to translate them into a unilateral comparison.

quote:

yet I am supposed to sit idle while you perpetuate a misconception about clinical sadism? I don't think so!

what misconception am i perpetuating? the definition of a clinical sadist (the ones whom are obviously dangerous) is rather cut and dry, no perpetuation of any stereotype or misconception there. someone that *admits* to being a clinical sadist keeping his sadism in check by only using willing victims, is as ludicrously absurd as a pedophile saying he only fucks around with kids that are consenting. anyone with sadistic urges that only uses consenting adults is VASTLY different than a clinical sadist. yes, a HUGE difference.

quote:

You seek to differentiate between clinical and bdsm sadism, but the difference you propose does not exist. There is one and only one form of sadism, but there are degrees of sadism, which you seem to find amusing despite this being the way it is viewed in psychology.

Diagnostic criteria for 302.84 Sexual Sadism
A. Over a period of at least 6 months, recurrent, intense sexually arousing fantasies, sexual urges, or behaviors involving acts (real, not simulated) in which the psychological or physical suffering (including humiliation) of the victim is sexually exciting to the person.

B. The person has acted on these urges with a nonconsenting person, or the sexual urges or fantasies cause marked distress or interpersonal difficulty.

once again, i believe it's rather cut and dry. the definition of a paraphilic sadist states that they only use nonconsenting people and/or this interaction causes the other party marked distress. if that's not dangerous and TOTALLY different than the BDSM definition of sadism, then i don't know what is. if someone has sadistic tendancies, yet only uses willing partners then that's not the same as someone diagnosed clinically sadistic because they only use NONconsenting *victims*.

quote:

I am sure that some of you are so biased that you will remain blissfully ignorant and continue to spread harmful lies regardless of what universities and respectable medical manuals say about it, but hopefully the reasonable readers will display an ounce of sensibility in this matter.

imagine that, people being biased against rallying for the normalcy of a clinical sadist. how is anyone "spreading harmful lies" lol hopefully i'm not the only one that sees the absolute and utter absurdity of that statement. you rallying on behalf of the *sane* clinically afflicted sadists of the world is tantamount to a rapist rallying for *sane* rapist that only rape willing people.

i truly fail to see your logic here, then again, there is no logic in the illogical. no one is making fallacious statements regarding the nature of clinical sadists. but to say that there isn't a difference between clinical sadism and sadism in a BDSM is preposterous. the difference is rather evident. S/M afficionados engage in sado-masochistic practices with willing partners and do not need to inflict pain as their primary source of sexual gratification. clinical sadists use nonconsenting partners and their sadism is oftentimes their primary source of sexual fulfillment.

feel free to respond, however, there isn't anything else i have to add to this particular discussion in response to you that A. hasn't already been said & B. wouldn't be kicking the proverbial dead horse.

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Post #: 35

RE: what is a sexual Sadist? - 9/20/2006 4:09:21 PM

BrutalAntipathy

Posts: 412
Joined: 7/8/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mavis

BA, i have questions now. i used to think i had a handle on it!

Ok, so sadism is Always related to sexual arousal or satisfaction, or is there a form of clinical sadist that just derrives pleasure, although not sexual, from inflicting pain?

In the same vein.. what about pre-pubescent sadists.. i know male infants can have erections when nursing, but it isn't actually sexual arousal. If a pre-pubescent is getting off on sun-ray-burning ants and is truly delighted with the ants perceived misery.. is that sadism in the strict sense, even absent sexual feelings from the act?    Or is that person going to associate his or her sexuality to it eventually upon entering puberty?

Sex is mostly a mental process. The people, including adolescents, that engage in sadistic acts that do not manifest as sexual are still experiencing the endorphin high resulting from their actions. I was experiencing sadistic ideations by age 9, and it had nothing to do with sex at that time. Puberty brought direction to the ideations, fusing sadism with sex.

i do understand the fetish definition meaning the target item must be present to achieve satisfaction in all cases,   i understand a clinical sadist would need infliction of pain to be present for sexual release..   but my impression was that "Consent" by it's very nature would turn the "true clinical" sadist off.. that the pain inflicted must include resistance to the pain as well.. is that incorrect?

Sadism requires the infliction of pain or humiliation upon an other. It does not distinguish between willing and unwilling. I suspect that a steak would taste the same even if the cow were a willing donor. Rape requires the victim be unwilling, but as I have expressed repeatedly though to no avail, sadism is not in itself another disorder. A rapist may or may not be a sadist. A sociopath may or may not be a sadist. They are seperate disorders that are not required to overlap as some people continue to insist.

i've always been under the impression that the BDSM term "sadist" is not accurate at all, because of the consent thing..but maybe i have been wrong all along. i haven't investigated this subject much because it kinda scares me.  it bumps up against what i believe about the word, and the people i know who claim it, and it doesn't mesh, and i'm afraid if i truly understood, i'd have to be afraid of a lot of my friends!

According to accepted medical definitions that I have already supplied, consent is not an issue. I will however include other links concerning this, as well as something which Ebony overlooked in her zeal to condemn clinical sadists... a link to the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual that revises the wording of the diagnostic criteria for paraphilias.

to make it easier to answer, questions are:

sexual vs non-sexual

sexual maturity in the sadist

the effect of consent

Now to be totally fair, what Ebony has described does exist. The problem is that what she is describing is not clinical sadism. She is describing Sadistic Personality Disorder. SPD is simply Antisocial Personality Disorder in conjunction with sadism. This is what I have argued all along, that sadism in and by itself is not dangerous. Only when combined with some other disorder or group of disorders does the sadist become a danger.

Link concerning SPD: http://www.psychnet-uk.com/clinical_psychology/criteria_personality_sadistic.htm

Revised DSM wording: http://www.dsmivtr.org/2-3changes.cfm

Medical definition of sadism as it applies to clinical sadism. Note that it is within full accordance to what is commonly called BDSM sadism : http://allpsych.com/disorders/paraphilias/sadism.html

And yet anotehr definition: http://web4health.info/en/answers/sex-paraphi-sadism.htm

A forensic interview concerning violent vs nonviolent sadism. Please note pstch professor Steven Hucker's clarification about midway down. : http://echo.forensicpanel.com/2001/3/5/whensex.html

And finally, a little piece that helps expose the bias and quackery behind DSM policy:
http://www.revisef65.org/reiersol3.html

(in reply to Mavis)

Post #: 36

RE: what is a sexual Sadist? - 9/20/2006 10:54:12 PM

LASub4Real

Posts: 169
Joined: 1/10/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: EbonyFtshGoddess

if i will..

what i view here is primarily a mix of clinical sadism vs BDSM interrpretations of sadism.

clinical sadists tend to definitely be dangerous and often are sociopathtic.

sadistic people in a purely S&M sense (under the tenets of S& M) merely enjoy inflicting pain, however, it is not their ONLY source of gratification.

sexual sadists are often the former. sociopathic and ONLY getting their ONLY source of gratification from inflicting pain on others.

myself.. i'm a sadistic woman. i have sadistic penchants or propensities.. i'm not ENTIRELY a sadist in the sense that i can only derive gratification from inflicting pain on others.

what i see here is a mix of the two.

clinically a sadist is ENTIRELY different than a S&M sorta BDSM sorta sadist.

clinical sadists are dangerous. think serial killer.. think black dahlia.. think sociopath or serial killer using someone to get off on.

yes, it's entirely different.

sorta like fetishes.

MOST people that claim to a fetishist in the BDSM sense aren't truly fetishists, rather they ENJOY an activity. instead.. CLINICAL fetishists NEED said fetish to gain sexual gratification.

there is a HUGE umbrella under which BDSM falls. yeah i like feet, yeah i like causing pain. is that my ONLY source of fulfillment?.. no.

clinical sadists are DEFINITELY not the ones you want to play with.

myself, i am a S&M sadistic sorta person. i don't get *off* on using my slaves or bottoms (yes there is a difference between bottom/Top and D/s sorta interaction).. but i dont NEED them to get off.

like i mentioned before.. a fetish in the clinical sense is considered an afflication by therapists. it's something that must persist for at least 6 months and MUST be the ONLY source of gratification.

with that being said, many of us like XYZ.. it's not a *fetish* in the clinical sense.

i'm talking men that can't get through the work day without seeing a woman's feet and wanting to lick it.. then licking it.

yes.. that afflicts then and will bombard their daily lives.

if ANYONE runs across a TRUE sadist.

i'd say RUN.

they have NO compassion for human suffering and their victims (yes victims) have no say.

a sadistic person (in the BDSM non clinical sense).. will only take willing participants.

such as myself.

am i sadistic? yes.

am i a sadist?.

no

i can be sensual to my slaves.. the ones whom are NOT masochistic. but do i feel the need to inflict pain on those i feel CANNOT take it?

once again no.

a TRUE clinical sadist.. wouldn't take no for an answer

i know i'm not a master.. but as someone with sadistic tendancies..

i had to post

ignore any typos

Wow, that made a lot of sense and cleared some things up.

Thanks EFG

(in reply to EbonyFtshGoddess)

Post #: 37

RE: what is a sexual Sadist? - 9/21/2006 2:57:03 AM

mons

Posts: 2400
Joined: 11/16/2005
Status: offline

greetinmg

caveatview
you did not answer her? what do you mean by you reply. a sadist can be many things many enjoy pain one their submissive the pain will be hard and harsh you may have just been answer by a sadist. lol i think but if you new and looking for somone like that be careful this is the high end of the realm the bdsm goes to. i am not a sadist i only heard what they do it is not for someone new to this. i say stay away, i think the other can answer you better then i. take care and good luck

mons

(in reply to LillieRose)

Post #: 38

RE: what is a sexual Sadist? - 9/22/2006 4:07:25 AM

sierraflowr

Posts: 59
Joined: 6/7/2005
From: Northern California
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: EbonyFtshGoddess

if i will what i view here is primarily a mix of clinical sadism vs BDSM interrpretations of sadism.
clinical sadists tend to definitely be dangerous and often are sociopathtic.
sadistic people in a purely S&M sense (under the tenets of S& M) merely enjoy inflicting pain, however, it is not their ONLY source of gratification.
sexual sadists are often the former. sociopathic and ONLY getting their ONLY source of gratification from inflicting pain on others.

myself.. i'm a sadistic woman. i have sadistic penchants or propensities.. i'm not ENTIRELY a sadist in the sense that i can only derive gratification from inflicting pain on others.
what i see here is a mix of the two.
clinically a sadist is ENTIRELY different than a S&M sorta BDSM sorta sadist.
clinical sadists are dangerous. think serial killer.. think black dahlia.. think sociopath or serial killer using someone to get off on.
yes, it's entirely different.
sorta like fetishes.
MOST people that claim to a fetishist in the BDSM sense aren't truly fetishists, rather they ENJOY an activity. instead.. CLINICAL fetishists NEED said fetish to gain sexual gratification.
here is a HUGE umbrella under which BDSM falls. yeah i like feet, yeah i like causing pain. is that my ONLY source of fulfillment?.. no.
clinical sadists are DEFINITELY not the ones you want to play with.
myself, i am a S&M sadistic sorta person. i don't get *off* on using my slaves or bottoms (yes there is a difference between bottom/Top and D/s sorta interaction).. but i dont NEED them to get off.
like i mentioned before.. a fetish in the clinical sense is considered an afflication by therapists. it's something that must persist for at least 6 months and MUST be the ONLY source of gratification.
with that being said, many of us like XYZ.. it's not a *fetish* in the clinical sense.
i'm talking men that can't get through the work day without seeing a woman's feet and wanting to lick it.. then licking it.
yes.. that afflicts then and will bombard their daily lives.
if ANYONE runs across a TRUE sadist.
i'd say RUN.
they have NO compassion for human suffering and their victims (yes victims) have no say.
sadistic person (in the BDSM non clinical sense).. will only take willing participants.
such as myself.
am i sadistic? yes.
am i a sadist?.
no
i can be sensual to my slaves.. the ones whom are NOT masochistic. but do i feel the need to inflict pain on those i feel CANNOT take it?
once again no.
a TRUE clinical sadist.. wouldn't take no for an answer
i know i'm not a master.. but as someone with sadistic tendancies..
i had to post
ignore any typos

I think you said that pretty darn well. thank you. there is a HUGE difference at what a 'Sadist' vs what WE call a Sadist in the BDSM realm.
since she is talking clinicly the definition fits. and i agree totally with the fetish part. if someone REALLY had a 'Fetish' for something that is the ONLY thing that would get them off 'clinically' speaking.
We've assumed the terms in WIITWD and incorporated them into our realm.
Now can i ask, does a sadist in WIITWD alway need to leave marks? is that always a part of thier psychy or is it just the administering of the pain?

_____________________________

~flowr
O};-
When I let go of who I am,
I become who I might be.
-Lao Tzu

(in reply to EbonyFtshGoddess)

Post #: 39

RE: what is a sexual Sadist? - 9/22/2006 8:34:58 AM

EbonyFtshGoddess

Posts: 446
Joined: 1/1/2006
From: Hollywood Hills, CA
Status: offline

sierraflowr

quote:

Now can i ask, does a sadist in WIITWD alway need to leave marks? is that always a part of thier psychy or is it just the administering of the pain?

i can only speak for myself on this one. the marks that are left behind are a huge turn-on for me. but i know some sadist Tops that really don't care about the marks left behind and oftentimes they do things that don't causes physical marks... like electrotorture or breathplay (two things i'm heavily into as well).

the masochistic side of me enjoys seeing the bruises the next day.. it's sort of a constant reminder of what i was able to endure.. although oddly, i don't get "turned-on" from bottoming.. i just enjoy pain and taking it.. but it doesn't get me wet or get me all hot and bothered so to speak.

when i'm feeling sadistic i enjoy seeing someone taking the same level of pain i can handle (i can't bottom to someone i've topped).. but the physical bruises or blood or tears excite me. then again so does seeing someone lick my boots or anything else. it's not my only source of excitement.

_____________________________

One Man's Phobia is Another Man's Fetish

(in reply to sierraflowr)

Post #: 40

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