RE: curious... sub vs. slave? (Full Version)

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kyraofMists -> RE: curious... sub vs. slave? (9/16/2006 5:26:47 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Horadell

How were you able to decide whether or not you were actually a submissive or a slave?


To answer this question, it really depends on what is a submissive and a slave to you.  For me, a slave is someone who gives authority to the dominant in all areas of their life and the dominant will use that authority as they see fit.  A submissive gives up authority in certain areas and retains it in others.  Neither one is better than the other; one may just be best for you. 

When I started a relationship with my Lord, I did not want to limit his authority in any aspect of my life.  I cannot imagine making that same decision with any other dominant.  The choice for me was very much dependent on the dominant I chose to have a relationship with. 

Knight's kyra 




KnightofMists -> RE: curious... sub vs. slave? (9/16/2006 7:22:15 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Horadell

I really don't want to label anything, I was just hoping to use the label as a starting point... but I should actually reflect back onto another post I made...



this is putting the cart before the horse..... You want to your girl to embrace herself... so you take an external label with some sort of definition that she should live up to..... Really what your doing is having her embrace a label and definition that may or maynot be her.  You and her must start looking in wards to the things that appeal to you both and motivate you.  Those internal desires, thoughts and passions.  Communicate them to each other... test these thing..... and most of all.... forget about labels and definitions.




Archer -> RE: curious... sub vs. slave? (9/16/2006 8:11:59 AM)

Something I wrote a couple years ago than might help.

It seems the identity questions are again being debated. So I'll wade in with my own thoughts about self-identities definitions, and other such things.

People want to find where they fit into the overall scheme of things
when they come into the world of Leather and BDSM. They found that
they were not the only ones in the world that had these desires and
now they find that the numbers are much larger than they ever
expected or even hoped for. We all found ourselves awash with
information and opinions, and in trying to stabilize ourselves we try
to find out where we fit in this new world.

Generally we know if we are in the generic sense a top or bottom, we
know if we have a desire to submit or dominate (or even possibly that
we want both) Other than that we are pretty much lost in the
possibilities.

We read a little and talk a little and when we see something we like
or that makes us hot we instantly adopt the identification of those
that are doing those things we want to do. I would suggest that this
is a pretty lame way of adopting a new identity in the new world we
discover.

There is a trend to set the titles of slave and Master as the desired
end of a leather or BDSM journey. I find that this trend is almost
always at the heart of the slave vs. submissive and Master vs.
Dominant identity debates. A slave is not better than a submissive
based on the level of service they give to their owner, they are different. A Master is not better than a Dominant based on the level
of control they exert over their partner, they are different.

The whole idea that the goal for everyone is to shift the highest
level of power exchange is as destructive as any other factor I can
imagine to those who are just not suited to that level of power
exchange. The idea that someone who is suited to a TPE is somehow
better than someone who is suited to very limited power exchanges is
just total bunk. It is an idea whose time has come to be rejected by
all of us and consigned to the scrap heap of ideas where it belongs.

A slave is not better than a submissive, who is not better than a
bottom, who is not better than a masochist, nor is a Master better
than a Dominant, who is not better than a Top, who is not better than
a Sadist. As a whole we are in fact all equal Tops, bottoms, Masters,
slaves, submissives, Dominants, we are all people. We just have
different needs as far as how we express our sexual power exchanges.

It seems to me that we have a bit of "Keeping up with the Jones's
Syndrome" when it comes to titles and identities.

All that being said I have succeeded in muddying the waters further
and in effect that is my goal. Finding where you fit shouldn't be a
short-term project. Self Identifying should be a struggling study in
who you are what you want, what you need, and only then can you claim
any meaningful identity, and even that is subject to change over time.
In Leather

Archer




velvetears -> RE: curious... sub vs. slave? (9/16/2006 8:35:56 AM)

This is a very good article that to me best outlines what it is to  be a slave. There are soooooo many opinions on this subject it's like opening up a pandoras box to even compare sub and slave. i also included 2 links at the bottom - there you will find many articles regarding many different aspects of bdsm  - hope it was helpful

Oh btw - imo when you come across the 128 basic slave rules - skip it, i don't know why it's always included everywhere but it's so ridiculous.
So you want to be a slave:
The Realities
by Maria Hunter from Dom-sub Lifestyle
I decided to write this article because I have seen so many submissives come into the lifestyle expecting everything to be dream-like and perfect. I don't wish to ruin anyone's dreams, or turn them from the activity, but what I wish to do is to explain how things really are. Being a slave can be, and is for me, a wonderful life. It's everything I wanted it to be. It is also more than I ever expected, and had someone explained the realities to me prior to my decision, it would have made my transition so much easier. For the purpose of this article, I am addressing issues related to being a 24/7 slave. These comments are from my viewpoint, which is that of a female slave with a male Master. By no means do I wish to exclude Domme's or male slaves. For them, I cannot comment from personal experience. This is just my view from a real-time experience.
First, there are a few things you need to discover for and about yourself. Do you wish to be in this type relationship 24/7? Perhaps you only wish to be in it during the scenes. Maybe you want to role-play at only during certain times. There are many ways this activity can be done, but you have to figure out what is right for you.
Second, you need to learn to be honest with yourself. Figure out what you will and will not do, and what is a "maybe". Search inside yourself for what you really want, and when you find it, be honest to anyone you talk to. Don't agree to something long-term that you know you will not be able accomplish. Ask yourself some hard questions. The rest of this article will give you aspects to contemplate so you can base your decisions on reality, and not someone else's dreams of how it should be.
Are you prepared to surrender 100% control of your life to someone else? 24/7 slaves do this. Role-playing would mean entering into this relationship only for the time agreed upon that the Master would have the total control. Once the scene is over, everything returns to normal.
Do you enjoy country music? Maybe you love Rock and Roll. Consider this. The Master who's collar you will eventually wear, may only like classical or another type of music that you don't enjoy. Are you prepared to give up those selections and only listen to His music? This type sacrifice can apply to many other things you currently enjoy. For myself, I love old love songs of any type, and my Master is into Hard Rock. Because of His preferences, I rarely get to listen to my songs. But, when I am a good girl, at times, He does permit me to listen to my choice of music, as long as I get my assigned tasks and chores done. Note, I said, "permitted to". Something as simple as listening to the radio is a reward for me. It is not a given that you will be permitted to enjoy even this little pleasure whenever you wish. These limitations can apply to many areas of your life such as TV, choices of food or friends, just about anywhere anything! Is there a certain style of clothes you love? Certain colors and scents you wouldn't be caught without? If your Master doesn't approve of them, you may be wearing a totally different style with colors you never would have dreamed of. He may lay your clothes out for you every morning. Are you prepared to abide happily by His choices? If He asked you to wear something very skimpy to someplace simple like the grocery store, could you do this without hesitation? I am lucky in the fact that my Master lets me chose my own clothes most of the time. But at anytime, should He decide that He wants me to wear something else, I am to change immediately. Trust me, He does exercise this right. I have learned to always ask Him what He would like me to wear if we are going someplace special.
Are you prepared to change your hairstyle, length, or color to please your Master? All of these will belong to Him once you accept your collar as will everything else that once belonged to you. You will no longer own anything. From the time you take His collar, everything will be His. It will no longer be "your" car or "your" clothes, but "His", on loan to you as He sees fit. If He should so choose, you will not be permitted to wear clothes at all. This will be HIS choice, not yours. Remember, you will have given up all rights to make these choices for yourself.
You have a favorite chair, or a certain way you like to sit or walk? Your Master will decide whether you sit on furniture or on the floor. He will have the say if you are to cross your legs, or sit with them spread wide-open. You will have to ask permission to even climb into bed, or sit on a chair. Most slaves are allowed a cushion on the floor that they do not need permission to sit upon, but very little else. You will even need permission to eat at the table with your Master.
It's been a long hard day at work. You get home and want nothing more than to relax in a tub and go to bed early. Well, you won't be able to. Being tired, ill, or just in a bad mood does not excuse you from your required tasks. You are still required to do them: prepare His meal, and go to bed when HE tells you to. Retiring for bed usually occurs at a set time, even if you are not ready to go. There will not be an "I am too tired" or "I don't feel well": nothing of the kind. Unless your Master has excused you from your tasks and chores, you will remain responsible for making sure His needs and wants are filled: no matter what. It is your job to inform your Master of your physical health status. One of your main jobs will be to take care of and protect, His possessions. You being are the most prized one He owns. As long as you let your Master know how you are feeling, He will make sure that your tasks will be appropriate to your capabilities.
Many come into this lifestyle looking to be used sexually, to service their Master at His whim. They never consider other aspects. The main part of being a slave is to be of service to your Master, and not to be serviced for yourself. However, being readily available to Him at ALL times is also an unspoken expectation. The old excuse "not tonight dear, I have a headache" doesn't work in a D/s relationship. In order to provide Him pleasure, you must also express to Him the pleasure of the moment for you as well. NEVER make your Master feel this is a chore to you: something you would rather not do, but will only because you have to. If your Master tells you to do something, it will not be up to you to question Him. You will be required to respond with no questions asked. At a later time (if this is permitted in your relationship), you may ask Him for permission to speak on an equal level. If He gives permission, this will be your opportunity to ask your questions. However, it is important to ask in a way so as not to question His authority, but at the same time to satisfy your curiosity.
Do you feel being a slave is to be coerced: forced into servitude? Do you think you couldn't do this unless you were? Then think again. Slaves enter into this relationship of their own free will. This is not the day of forced slavery; it is a matter of choice. YOURS! You are the one who will decide to give over your power to your Master. You will be doing this, not because you are forced to obey, but because you need to. Yes, during the course of your relationship there will be times you will be forced to do something, but it will never be something that goes against who you are. Your Master may feel obeying this command will help you to grow into the best person you can be, or will help you break out of an inhibition you have.
How is your temper? Are you quick to fly off-of-the-handle when you are upset? Or are you laid back, accepting anything and everything, and then go off to sulk because your feelings were hurt? A Master does not wish to have a doormat for a slave nor does He desire to be told how things should be. Learning when and how to say things will become very important in your relationship. If you do not tell your Master when something is bothering you, then you have no right whatsoever to become upset. However wonderful and omnipotent He may seem, He is not a mind reader: unless you tell Him, He won't know. The key, as I said a moment ago, is in how you tell Him.
Your self-discipline is very important in this relationship. Do you tend to put things off until the last possible moment? You won't be able to do this when you are owned. There will be chores and tasks your Master will assign that He expects to be done in a timely fashion set by Him, not by you. Your Master's wants and needs will be put before your own. Self-discipline is similar to self-control. Your ability to follow complete assignments made by your Master will be very important. As a slave, you will need to be able to control your own actions well enough to be able to remain within the boundaries set for you by Him. If He says you can't do something, simply, you can't. Doing it anyway, and not telling Him doesn't make it right. In the case of a Master/slave relationship, what you don't know CAN hurt you, as well as the relationship you have worked so hard to build. Even a simple "white lie" can destroy the trust so necessary to really establish this type relationship.
As to wants and needs of your own: do you know the difference between the two? If not, I strongly recommend you figure them out before entering into servitude. Sometimes the two are hard to distinguish, but it will become important that you do so. Your Master will ensure all your "needs" are taken care of, but the "wants" will be His to allow or not, as He sees fit. Needs are the necessities of life that are required in order for us to remain mentally and physically healthy. They allow us to grow emotionally and spiritually. If you can survive without something, then it is a want. Wants are usually given as a reward for good behavior.
In order to be a slave, there will be many things you have to learn to accept within yourself and adapt to. Your primary purpose in life will be to see to your Masters pleasure (both mentally and physically) in any manner He should desire. In order to do this, you will have to learn your Master well. Find out what pleases and displeases Him. By this, I do not mean just sexually. You will learn that sex is but a small part of your relationship. Learn to anticipate His every need and desire without being pushy. His needs and desires will encompass intellectual stimulation, physical pleasure, emotional support, and many other things unique to Him. Remember - physical does not equal sexual. Physical pleasure may include, but is not limited to, touch, favorite foods, textures, clothing, and colors as examples. It will be your job to make sure His physical pleasures are met in everyway. Think of the five senses, and make His environment pleasing to all of them. Never forget - the most pleasing thing in His environment should be you.
As His slave, it will be up to you to figure out what pleases your Master. He should not have to ask constantly for the basic things - you should have learned them. If His glass is empty, quietly and unobtrusively refill it. Remember, you are doing this for His pleasure not your own. Just because He does not notice and praise you doesn't mean you are doing it wrong. Look at His smile. Is He comfortable? If He looks happy and content, then you have done well, and should bask in His content. Always remember that you do this for Him and not for your own satisfaction. Your happiness should come from serving Him and His being happy.
As I said in the beginning of this article, I am not trying to scare you away from the world of D/s. My goal is to make sure that, when you enter our lifestyle, you do so with your eyes wide open, fully knowing what to expect. The road will not be an easy one. You will have to re-learn much of what you once took for granted: things you just did without thinking, like simply sitting in a chair. These are habits we never even think about anymore. That is, until we find a Master.
Everything else you learned before reading this article is probably true. Being a slave is a wonderful life: one where you are taken care of. Most decisions are out of your hands and in those of your Masters. But, many choices will still be left up to you. Most Masters want a slave who is smart, has a sense of humor, and a will of their own. There is no pleasure in owning a doormat who just sits or is only walked upon. He will become bored very fast. Being yourself is the best advice I was given, and I have found this to be absolutely true for me.
You will find being a slave everything you dreamed of and so much more if you enter this life knowing more of what to expect. If you are meant to be in the lifestyle, you will find that, where you were once only walked through life, you will be gliding on air. Parts of you that never were complete will then become whole. In relinquishing control, I have found freedom: freedom to find and be the person I am inside.
It is my hope that, after reading this article, you will be able to make a more informed choice about entering this lifestyle. Never forget that, one of the most important requirements for existing in this lifestyle is honesty. Honesty with yourself first. However, you will find that this is not as easy as it sounds. Once you learn to do this, you will find yourself at peace and able to enter your servitude with clearer mind, knowing where you are and where you want to be. When you accept your Masters collar, you give up all your rights. Your friends, your life - nothing will remain yours. Being a slave means giving up so much more than you would if you were only being submissive. You give up all rights in your life. Slave isn't just a word; it's a way of life, a defined action. Be well, my friend, and I hope you enjoy this lifestyle as much as I have come to love being in it.




http://www.leathernroses.com/generalbdsm/generalbdsm.htm#terms

http://www.fetishalliance.net/Stories/stories.htm





julietsierra -> RE: curious... sub vs. slave? (9/16/2006 10:53:35 AM)

In answer to your question regarding when and how I decided if I was a submissive or a slave:

We had been going out for over a year. I was collared, but called myself a submissive, not a slave. He first called me his slave in an introduction to someone else. I was floored, scared, upset and a lot of other emotions that I didn't understand. I didn't want to accept, concede slavery without understanding exactly what that meant to him, what changes it meant between us, and bunches of other things.

See, I don't make my committments easily. I take my time, am sure of what I am committing to and don't make one unless I'm able to follow through on what I've promised - regardless of what happens in my life. However, this committment was extremely hard to deal with. 

It wasn't so much the committment however. It was because I had a REAL hard time with the concept of being called a slave. There was something horribly fearful about the whole thing. Would I lose who I was? Would he take advantage to the point of it hurting me? Would I be in a position that he could/would present me with situations I wanted no part of? Could I live up to his expectations of me?

I asked and asked and asked him about it. He took his time explaining things...sometimes, he just wouldn't explain at all, but would leave me to figure it out. He knew that me figuring things out went miles further in the area of acceptance than him just telling me. I was his submissive, but before he could own me, I had to own myself and my feelings about ownership in particular. I balked. A lot. He let me. He didn't back down, but he also didn't push.

One day it occurred to me that I had been fooling myself...hiding behind a word; finding safety in the fantasy of retaining some control. In reality, I'd given it all up long before that moment. And I realized that at one point, there are places where baby steps don't work. I generally think in terms of analogies because the situation is easier to see in them than anything else. My analogy to this was that ultimately, if I wanted to jump off the high diving board, I had to step off and believe enough in myself to know that when I hit the water, I'd still come up for air.

That's when I called him up and in an incredulous voice told him that I'd just realized something...that I was his slave - and submissive - and everything else he might want to call me. He laughed and said "...took you long enough."

In response to the rest of your post, I have serious reservations (although many people don't) in the ability of someone else to convince a person lacking in self-esteem that they can have confidence in themselves. To me, it certainly doesn't happen just because someone says so over and over again. Self-esteem has to come from the inside, and if you think about it, self-esteem is really self-respect. Without self-respect, we can't have confidence in ourselves, our decisions and our judgments about what is right for us. So while your intentions may be nice, I am rather skeptical about the possibility of raising self-respect/self-esteem in someone else.

I also have serious reservations about someone being so sure that someone else hasn't "fully embraced herself and this lifestyle." At the one year mark, I don't know that anyone knows enough about all of this - and themselves -  to be able to make that decision for someone else. At that point, I believe that all they can honestly say is that they know themselves enough to know that this may be for them - and that's about it.

So...that being the case, I'd like to suggest simply letting your relationship sort itself out. Since the one person you DO know better than anyone else is yourself, create your standards and hold them. Allow her to explore hers. Allow the relationship to develop and mature naturally. Don't push change on someone when pushing change implies having the expertise and experience to deal with what the changes bring.

My Master's been doing this for 28 or 29 years solid and even today, there's no way he pushes. He first met me when I was 3 years into this and still he waited until I was more knowledgable, more capable of handling the realities of this life (some are VERY harsh), and "ready" for what he wanted to do. Once we did get together, he never pushed. He presented and let me find my zone. I admit, it's a slower process, but it SURE is designed under the premise of "Do no harm" and I think that in the fervor of the first few years doing this, it's definitely something everyone has to watch out for - or at least I HOPE they'd watch out for. His way, when I accepted something, he knew I was accepting it because it was right for me - not just because he said so. That being said, during that time, he was always ready to walk if I couldn't get to where he wanted me to be, and that was fine with me. The guidelines were set. The boundaries in place. We grew from there.

I believe that you will have much more success and your relationship will stand a better chance of lasting/surviving if you opt not to push. You can't own her - truly own her - until she owns herself. All you can do is provide the support and safety for her to find a way to do that. Pushing slavery on someone who already doesn't understand herself very well seems to go against that whole idea of "Do no harm."

Just my opinions,

juliet




twicehappy -> RE: curious... sub vs. slave? (9/16/2006 1:02:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists

For me, a slave is someone who gives authority to the dominant in all areas of their life and the dominant will use that authority as they see fit.  A submissive gives up authority in certain areas and retains it in others.  Neither one is better than the other; one may just be best for you. 


Kyra this is my definition as well, and well stated.

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

Really what your doing is having her embrace a label and definition that may or maynot be her.  You and her must start looking in wards to the things that appeal to you both and motivate you.  Those internal desires, thoughts and passions.  Communicate them to each other... test these thing..... and most of all.... forget about labels and definitions.


Wonderful advice KOM, the best given on this thread so far.




KnightofMists -> RE: curious... sub vs. slave? (9/16/2006 1:09:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: twicehappy

Wonderful advice KOM, the best given on this thread so far.


well it's official.. I am making you President of my Fan Club.  I would make alandra or kyra but they have a conflict of interest *W*




cravespleasure -> RE: curious... sub vs. slave? (9/16/2006 3:27:09 PM)

Sort of commenting on both threads here rather than one or the other:
perhaps people can be trained as slaves (as in going from submissive to slave) but my own gut feeling about this is that it's not a feeling or a mood that changes from one day to another. You are something or you aren't. Do you find yourself thinking of other's needs before your own? Do you feel an innate peace/happiness from helping/serving others? It's not that one is better than the other, or more advanced. To me it's like the color of your skin.. sure you can use artificial means to color it/bleach it. I think if you work really hard at self awareness/counseling/mentorship/training you can change though. It's not really that the categories are just "sub", "slave" .. it's a range across a spectrum and the sharp divide we identify are just the two. Sometimes until we are really comfortable being honest about ourselves we can mask what we really are.. but that's different.

As for having and wanting one thing and getting something else..what I am, and what I do is two separate things. I could be happy in a variety of circumstances. I'm quite open to a myriad of possibilities. At some point a choice will be made and the possibilities will narrow. I'm not looking for a relationship and defining that relationship.. I'm looking for a person. That person will help define the relationship. As a submissive type as long as your eyes are open going into the relationship, and you understand what the other person wants (and as a Dominant they better have a clear idea what they want or at least figure it out without being wishy washy!), and you are clear and HONEST about your goals and intentions you should be able to have a positive enriching relationship.





slavelinda -> RE: curious... sub vs. slave? (9/16/2006 6:55:16 PM)

For this slave, who was collared for the first time by her first Master (and later Husband) when she was 21 and has been in many relationships over the years, including those that were not M/s or  D/s, she has no concept of how anyone could BECOME a slave.  There has never been any doubt in this one's mind or heart that she was born a slave and must be a slave in order to fulfill her main purpose  for being.  There has never been a choice for this one.  Even when involved with nondominant men, she has been her natural submissive self and only waited and wanted the Man to assume total control over her.  Whenever that didn't happen, this slave became frustrated and had to leave and try to find a true Master for her to serve.  she couldn't tell the Man that she was a slave and needed Him to take control over her, because that would have put her in control over things and would not have felt right to her.  she was never happy just being submissive to a Man, she had to be owned and enslaved completely and without any doubt about it.  Fortunately, because the need to be owned has never died or lessened in her and she had to continue to search for a Master, she was led to CollarMe.com last Fall and was able to find a Master who now owns her silly ass for all time and she is finally able to be her true self and live the way she has always known that she was intended to live.  There was no training involved for her to become a slave, only time for learning how her Master likes things done and how He likes His food cooked, etc.  There was no transition from being a dating couple to becoming a submissive to Him and then becoming His slave.  That idea just seems totally ridiculous to this girl and would seem like just playing around and experimenting.  Maybe some people don't know that they are a slave and they need to play and explore to find that out.  For this one, it's just not that complicated.  she was born a slave, just as much as she was born a girl and she was born with blue eyes and she has no idea about how to be or become anything else.  The only thing that has been hard for her has been living without a Master for so many years in a world that doesn't allow a slave to be herself openly and having to spend many frustrating years trying to act like a nonslave.  It is a hard world for a slave with no Master.

Most Respectfully,

slave joy
Owned Property of Master David




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