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curious... sub vs. slave? - 9/14/2006 8:57:32 PM

Horadell

Posts: 47
Joined: 9/6/2006
From: SW Florida
Status: offline

Well... my biggest question that I will post to subs/slaves here is this...

How were you able to decide whether or not you were actually a submissive or a slave?

the unfortunate reason behind my question is...

As many have been reading and keeping up on my new diving into the lifestyle, I have my wonderful beautiful loving and tender girl. I am trying to help her fully embrace herself, and this lifestyle, because I believe that she really hasn't. She is still rather young, and though I can say she has probably been into the whole D/s thing longer than I have (only a year, at best) quantity does not equal quality.

I don't believe she has fully accepted herself, and she is really still searching for her bounderies.

I don't know enough about submissives or slaves to be able to help her look for answers within herself, and I do know that each person has their own views of submissives and slaves, especially those who are submissives and slaves.

So my questions are as follows...

How does one tell if they are truely a submissive, or really a slave? how do you make that decision? What kind of things set apart a submissive from a slave? where might I be able to help my darling little pet in her own self discovery? what should I be looking for, activities, mindsets, word choice, and the like, to help her figure out what exactly she wants/needs?

thanks for the insight!

Post #: 1

RE: curious... sub vs. slave? - 9/14/2006 9:42:15 PM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline

Your current issues with this girl right now have nothing to do with labels. Work more on becoming secure together and able to simply enjoy being who you are- not what label to apply.

http://www.collarchat.com/m_515303/mpage_1/key_slave/tm.htm#515333
What is the difference?

http://www.collarchat.com/m_308296/mpage_1/key_slave%252Csub/tm.htm#309867
sub or slave?

http://www.collarchat.com/m_342405/mpage_1/key_slave%252Csub/tm.htm#342794
~slave vs sub~

http://www.collarchat.com/m_410567/mpage_1/key_slave%252Csub/tm.htm#410982
slave or sub

http://www.collarchat.com/m_497775/mpage_1/key_submissive%252Cslave/tm.htm#497977
I'm new to this but...

http://www.collarchat.com/m_366860/mpage_1/key_slave%252Csub/tm.htm#366893
Difference bet/submission and slave?

http://www.collarchat.com/m_365776/mpage_1/key_sub%252Cslave/tm.htm#366767
slub question

http://www.collarchat.com/m_281198/mpage_1/key_slave%252Csub/tm.htm#281512
difference between slave and submissive

http://www.collarchat.com/m_251014/mpage_1/key_sub%252Cslave/tm.htm#251062
definition of "slave"

What's the difference between slaves and submissives?

Submissive or slave?

Slaves versus submissive

Submissive or slave? (2)

Submissive vs slave (2)

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to Horadell)

Post #: 2

RE: curious... sub vs. slave? - 9/14/2006 9:46:47 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Horadell

How were you able to decide whether or not you were actually a submissive or a slave?

I haven't actually decided this, but even if I end up slave-like I will still call myself a submissive.. I like the way it sounds

quote:

As many have been reading and keeping up on my new diving into the lifestyle, I have my wonderful beautiful loving and tender girl. I am trying to help her fully embrace herself, and this lifestyle, because I believe that she really hasn't. She is still rather young, and though I can say she has probably been into the whole D/s thing longer than I have (only a year, at best) quantity does not equal quality.

Enjoy each other and forget about the labels, sometimes gentle domination gets more submission than heavy handed tactics. Instead of trying to make her into something she isn't, help her reach the potential of who she innately is

quote:

I don't believe she has fully accepted herself, and she is really still searching for her bounderies.

Very few people have accepted themselves, this is the time you are finding out who you both are, why spoil the journey by taking it too seriously on either side? Im still searching for my boundaries, sounds very normal to me.

quote:

I don't know enough about submissives or slaves to be able to help her look for answers within herself, and I do know that each person has their own views of submissives and slaves, especially those who are submissives and slaves.

there is a difference, but it is impossible to quantify, and I wouldn't even try. Help her get to know herself not only as a submissive, but as a human being. Find other real life submissives for her to interact with.. some that are slaves, some that are not... let her establish her identity, you are there to mold he, but you cannot make her into anything that she just isn't.

quote:

How does one tell if they are truely a submissive, or really a slave?

Time usually reveals these things, or at least it eases the need for a label

quote:

how do you make that decision?

I don't make that decision, I just am what I am. I think that all slaves are submissive, but not all submissives are slaves. I think that someone can be submissive in one relationship and a slave in another. I think that people can evolve into slaves in an ongoing relationship without realizing it is happening. I have read all of these perspectives on this board.

quote:

What kind of things set apart a submissive from a slave?

Cannot be quantified, it is like asking how you know you are in love.

quote:

where might I be able to help my darling little pet in her own self discovery?

By watching for who she is more than who you want her to be. You cannot help someone get somewhere unless you know where they are, and you can only know that by taking time to listen to them. It is a time consuming process.

quote:

what should I be looking for, activities, mindsets, word choice, and the like, to help her figure out what exactly she wants/needs?

Try different things with her to see what excites her and gets her going, give her an order and see how she responds to it.. does she like micromanagement, does she like you to be forceful.. those type of things. I do not know how to tell you to find what another needs. It gets revealed by watching and paying attention to her. Forget labels for awhile and just enjoy her.

quote:

thanks for the insight!

I hope I helped

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Horadell)

Post #: 3

RE: curious... sub vs. slave? - 9/14/2006 9:55:38 PM

marieToo

Posts: 3595
Joined: 5/21/2006
From: Jersey
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Horadell

How does one tell if they are truely a submissive, or really a slave?

She has to pee on a test strip.

_____________________________

marie.

I give good agita.

(in reply to Horadell)

Post #: 4

RE: curious... sub vs. slave? - 9/14/2006 9:57:13 PM

ayasha

Posts: 149
Joined: 12/10/2005
Status: offline

Not all submissives or slaves have a submissive personality, in fact many of us are very outgoing, outspoken, strong, secure, and have very demanding jobs - many of us are in positions of authority at work. We choose to submit to someone because that is what makes us happy, what brings us joy. It is where we belong.

Not every submissive can or wants to be a slave (italiziced wants so nobody misses it and crawls all over this one saying not everybody wants to be a slave - am making that clear right here). Someone is not a slave until they have been trained - and that does not mean being trained by someone that does not know what they are doing. A slave has to have knowledge - will leave it at that.

You will get many different opinions - all you can do is continue to ask questions, continue to learn, and decide for yourself what path you feel is right for you.

< Message edited by ayasha -- 9/14/2006 10:05:13 PM >

(in reply to Horadell)

Post #: 5

RE: curious... sub vs. slave? - 9/14/2006 9:59:54 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Horadell

How does one tell if they are truely a submissive, or really a slave?

She has to pee on a test strip.

Marie, you are just simply evil these days, and I am thinking you need to be spanked by someone for your sheer wickedness...smiles

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to marieToo)

Post #: 6

RE: curious... sub vs. slave? - 9/14/2006 10:00:24 PM

Mavis

Posts: 828
Joined: 2/8/2004
Status: offline

The only diff tween a submissive and a slave is related to the particular Dominant she is working with. If she feels she knows and trusts that one to the extent she doesn't need to maintain negotiating rights.. that for many would be considered a slave role.. but before getting to that point with a particular Master, she would surely go thru a period of time when she is still developing that trust level.. and that would be considered by many to be a submissive role instead. Some subs have the mindset that will allow them to work to that end, and some will never have the desire to do so, even if the Dominant were trustworthy to that level. .

Obviously, with this girl, YOU are not ready to assume full control and responsibility for her in all areas of her life, nor is she ready to hand over that level of control, so for You and her it's a moot issue for the moment.

When one is saying "Hi! I want to know more about how an engine works" they don't often follow it up with "I'd like to apply to be the head professor of the engines department". think man, think! lol

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 7

RE: curious... sub vs. slave? - 9/14/2006 10:05:47 PM

Mavis

Posts: 828
Joined: 2/8/2004
Status: offline

OMG, my test strip came out negative. imma gonna run upstairs, grab MrMavis and try the official dip-stick test.

(in reply to Mavis)

Post #: 8

RE: curious... sub vs. slave? - 9/14/2006 10:11:33 PM

DivaZya

Posts: 103
Joined: 2/15/2005
Status: offline

Take a look at the "9 levels of submission" .. good for a generalized set of niches - but of course be aware that there are infinate variety between as well as fluidity.

_____________________________

~ D/s isn't based on fantasies- it may be motivated by them, but reality must be dealt with, and sometimes sharply! ~

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 9

RE: curious... sub vs. slave? - 9/14/2006 10:15:07 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

According to them I am a slave....smiles

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to DivaZya)

Post #: 10

RE: curious... sub vs. slave? - 9/14/2006 10:15:23 PM

marieToo

Posts: 3595
Joined: 5/21/2006
From: Jersey
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Horadell

How does one tell if they are truely a submissive, or really a slave?

She has to pee on a test strip.

Marie, you are just simply evil these days, and I am thinking you need to be spanked by someone for your sheer wickedness...smiles

Thats alotta sheer wickedness.....

A man's arm could get tired.

_____________________________

marie.

I give good agita.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 11

RE: curious... sub vs. slave? - 9/14/2006 10:28:23 PM

Horadell

Posts: 47
Joined: 9/6/2006
From: SW Florida
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mavis

The only diff tween a submissive and a slave is related to the particular Dominant she is working with. If she feels she knows and trusts that one to the extent she doesn't need to maintain negotiating rights.. that for many would be considered a slave role.. but before getting to that point with a particular Master, she would surely go thru a period of time when she is still developing that trust level.. and that would be considered by many to be a submissive role instead. Some subs have the mindset that will allow them to work to that end, and some will never have the desire to do so, even if the Dominant were trustworthy to that level. .

Obviously, with this girl, YOU are not ready to assume full control and responsibility for her in all areas of her life, nor is she ready to hand over that level of control, so for You and her it's a moot issue for the moment.

When one is saying "Hi! I want to know more about how an engine works" they don't often follow it up with "I'd like to apply to be the head professor of the engines department". think man, think! lol

Eh... I never asked to apply for anything.

I don't mean my posts to come off as... well... the way they do. I simply get into my think tank mode and start typing everything in my head.

I really don't want to label anything, I was just hoping to use the label as a starting point... but I should actually reflect back onto another post I made...

Wow, looking at my own words? thats a first! heh... Thanks for pointing me in the right direction, I do so enjoy looking back on something and being more confused and less confused at the same time.

New rule, no more posting, for me, of new topics, after midnight.

(in reply to Mavis)

Post #: 12

RE: curious... sub vs. slave? - 9/14/2006 10:28:38 PM

crouchingtigress

Posts: 4387
Joined: 3/19/2006
From: Maui
Status: offline

funny i was thinking the same thing...hehe

to the OP:

i read your post and i see well meaning medaling, which is fine.... if it is consensual.

but if it is not, well, you may learn the hard way that your well meaning efforts to change her will be the cause of a great and most likely fatal rift in your union.

she will either feel like she cant live up to your expectations, and will get pissy or sullen depending on her personality, or she will decide you dont love her for who she is, and or that you do not have any business changing her and she will slip from your fingers....

if you are not getting enthusiastic gratitude from her when you make these observations and suggestions, i would back off, she'll get there (where ever her own 'there' is)

whether you are there by her side at the end of it all, is entirely dependent on whether she feels supported or criticized by you.

if you are wondering what brings me to the conclusion that you are running the risk of becoming overly critical it is your own words things like:

the unfortunate reason ....
because I believe that she really hasn't...
I don't believe she has fully accepted herself...
quantity does not equal quality...

your observations may or may not be true, but they come off a little superior, and some what critical. i would tread carefully because not only does that do the opposite of what you hope to accomplish in that it actually could make her feel bad about herself but it also is a way to appear impenetrable and emotionally unavailable which could lead to intimacy issues down the line...

love
tigress

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Horadell

How does one tell if they are truely a submissive, or really a slave?

She has to pee on a test strip.

Marie, you are just simply evil these days, and I am thinking you need to be spanked by someone for your sheer wickedness...smiles

_____________________________

Service slut, durable plaything, and ponypenquincatdogpig, to Lee Harrington

This is him

"Its none of my buisness what other people think of me."

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 13

RE: curious... sub vs. slave? - 9/14/2006 10:44:33 PM

Horadell

Posts: 47
Joined: 9/6/2006
From: SW Florida
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: crouchingtigress

if you are wondering what brings me to the conclusion that you are running the risk of becoming overly critical it is your own words things like:

the unfortunate reason ....
because I believe that she really hasn't...
I don't believe she has fully accepted herself...
quantity does not equal quality...

I can see that all...

A simple explanation, as my wording is often used for one reason or another...

the unfortunate reason .... : I have (recently) been posting with odd questions that seem to spark a lot of people to jump on the topic. This wastes time with questions that I should have been able to answer myself, by looking inward, rather than outward.

because I believe that she really hasn't... : To be honest, I don't believe she has. I don't believe I have either. Nor do I believe many people here have. I could be wrong, as I often am. I try to keep my late night musings to myself... as they often play out in my head within the morning hours, and never get beyond that, with the exception of this site.

I don't believe she has fully accepted herself... : Read my posting on Not good enough... in my opinion, she hasn't... I am working on trying to build her self-esteem, she absolutely LOVES photography, so I am looking into getting her a very nice camera that she can take all sorts of pictures with...

quantity does not equal quality... taken out of context... put it back in? Without completely spilling her personal life... She has done a lot of things, with a lot of people, most, whom she never knew their name... Is that quality BDSM experience? You be the judge...

She is seeing a therapist... She wanted to. I personally like the woman.

Yes, I may come off as being overly superior, but I don't mean it to be... I love her dearly, and simply wish to help her discover herself.

While someone may never say, I want to know how this engine works, make me the head professor, someone might say, I want to know how to make this engine work better, so that I can become the head professor.

I am taking things as they come, I just wanted some insight to help along the way... things to watch out for, the like.

Anywho, Thanks for pointing out my language... I didn't realize that it was coming off so negative.

(in reply to crouchingtigress)

Post #: 14

RE: curious... sub vs. slave? - 9/15/2006 2:49:23 AM

bandit25

Posts: 3029
Joined: 6/18/2005
Status: offline

I don't want to sound like I am critisizing, but CT has some really good suggestions. Don't push (and you prolly aren't). It's OK to suggest insights and helpful hints, but let her discover her inner sub/slave herself. It's very easy to think that you're not living up to expectations...especially if you're somewhat confused or hesitant in the first place. As far as accepting one's self, well, I think you're right...most of us have problems with that. And that's ok. As long as it's not interfering with your relationship, you can both discover and accept yourselves together.

(in reply to Horadell)

Post #: 15

RE: curious... sub vs. slave? - 9/15/2006 4:30:00 AM

Mercnbeth

Posts: 11766
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Horadell
How were you able to decide whether or not you were actually a submissive or a slave?

this slave believes it is something innate, like hair color---one either has it or one doesn't. the decision is actually if and how one will act on it, rather than "choosing" a title. of course, there are some who don't resemble submissive or slave in any way, yet, just as there are a whole lotta blonde's out there, just not "naturally" so, they "look the part" and still label themselves as such.

quote:

How does one tell if they are truely a submissive, or really a slave?

by truly and really knowing oneself regardless of outside validation. people "make" themselves into ones all the time---not sure how it works out for them in the long run, but for this slave, "acting" like a submissive or slave is just that---acting.

quote:

how do you make that decision?

the decision wasn't what label this slave was applying to herself (submissive,slave,bottom) but who or what this slave would serve and to what extent she would extend that service in daily life. there are some who get nothing from this BDSM stuff but kinky sex fantasy, (not that there is anything wrong with that)---and some who base their relationship with another and how they live their lives on D/s or M/s paradigms and never participate in bondage or S&M. some folks put on their "Master and slave" garb on a Saturday night and that's as far and as long as it goes. So, after the label is affixed, you still define it as to what it means to the two of you.

quote:

What kind of things set apart a submissive from a slave?

***DISCLAIMER***

the following is based on opinion only...your experience may vary and neither description is intended as a value judgment

a submissive retains a certain, pre-negotiated amount of control over themselves and their lives which includes a list of limits the Dom/Domme must abide by, backed up by a "safeword" and ultimatums. when the Dom/Domme says jump, they check their list first, figuratively, and if it is acceptable to them, they jump.

a slave is only limited by what their Master decides, accepts His/Her limits as their own and gives up complete control of their lives, retaining nothing but their individuality and the things Master decides for them. when Master says jump, they say "How high?" on the way up.

quote:

where might I be able to help my darling little pet in her own self discovery? what should I be looking for, activities, mindsets, word choice, and the like, to help her figure out what exactly she wants/needs?

Have you asked her why? As in, Why does she want to be your submissive or slave?

You have shared in previous threads that she tells you you deserve better and other self-deprecating remarks. it has been this slave's experience that anyone who ever told her that ended up being absolutely right.

(in reply to Horadell)

Post #: 16

RE: curious... sub vs. slave? - 9/15/2006 5:16:18 AM

OhReallyNow

Posts: 249
Joined: 9/11/2006
Status: offline

quote:

How were you able to decide whether or not you were actually a submissive or a slave?

this slave NEVER made a conscience decision on whether or not she was submissive or slave. the feeling is so ingrained within that Master brought it out naturally.

_____________________________

~ When anger rises, think of the consequences
CONFUCIUS ~

(in reply to Horadell)

Post #: 17

RE: curious... sub vs. slave? - 9/15/2006 7:31:12 AM

MasterFireMaam

Posts: 5587
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Charleston, WV
Status: offline

Self identification was a HUGE part of my journey. While I really like the idea of being outwardly recognized as a Master in some sort of formal way, I found that what I really needed was to embrace who I am myself. Along those lines, I feel that she is the one who really needs to be looking into what she feels is the difference between a sub and a slave and then choose for herself.

However, I know that it can be hard, as a Dominant, to see someone struggle with their identity. When we know and can plainly see the path that they should follow to reach their highest fulfillment. Still, all we can do is point them in the right direction and give a gently shove...then let them travel. It's their journey to find themselves...if they ever do.

One of my teachers is Master Steve Sampson. These are some comments he had to say about Masters and slaves:
Heart of Master
Heart of Slave

Perhaps these will help. They spoke to me.

Master Fire

_____________________________

The power of who we are can be intoxicating. The power of who we could be is humbling.
-----
Ms Relationship Books
-----
BDSM How-To Books

(in reply to Horadell)

Post #: 18

RE: curious... sub vs. slave? - 9/15/2006 10:29:23 AM

ChelseaSalome

Posts: 20
Joined: 8/25/2006
Status: offline

I have read your posts and you certainly seem to be geniunely sincere in understanding the relationship you are in, but one question I have had to ask myself recently might give you some clarity.
I was encouraged to step bit a few paces from a complicated situation and get myself out of the muck in the middle. It seems like you have been working awfully hard at yours as well.
That question is, "are you enjoying this relationship?"
No matter what the labels are, the idea is that both people get their needs met. It would appear to be a pretty simple question, yet my nature is to make everything as confusing, complicated and stirred up as possible. If the focus of the relationship turns into making it work and figuring it out then I think something's not quite right. Maybe you should just try relaxing a bit, don't overthink everything, and just have fun.

(in reply to MasterFireMaam)

Post #: 19

RE: curious... sub vs. slave? - 9/15/2006 10:46:02 AM

petcerina

Posts: 143
Joined: 4/4/2005
Status: offline

i don't believe that you can make this decision for her. You can encourage her, and tell her that she reminds you of your definition of a sub or slave, but i believe that decision has to come within the person. There was not much of a doubt of whether i was a submissive or a slave. Being a slave sounded scary and frightening and not very pleasant when i first started out. It was only until after i went real life, learned all i could, and was with Master for a long time that i decided that night that i was a slave to Him and always would be. It just happens. i can't explain how.

(in reply to Horadell)

Post #: 20

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