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perpetuating the stigma? - 9/15/2006 3:26:27 PM   
jesskitty


Posts: 185
Joined: 9/4/2006
Status: offline 		so i know before i get into this not everyone on these bdsm forums or chatrooms talks like this but i have come across a good percentage to ask this question.

on my university there is a gay,straight,lesbian,bisexual, transgered, questioning, glbt friendly club. being bisexual i joined the group and like being around people with similar sexuality/community/etc. being a support group/social group after every meeting once a week we would go out and eat at a resturant. the first couple of times the people that were coupled would get stared out for just showing affection to their partner. recently though they were being loud, talking about porn, doing sexual gesuters, etc and just not handeling themselves well in public and family eating establishments. last time i went they were talking explicitly about their sex life, adult stores, and doing gestures and movements loud and big enough for a 10 year old to hear who was with his family at the time. after telling them this isn't something a 10 year old should say, they responded by feeling patronized and saying 'recruite them young' and 'so, what PENIS! PROSTITUE! them staring at me wil just make me talk louder'. so what turned out to be a good social group where people were starring because of sexuality differences, turned out to be staring due to the majority of the group not holding themselves well and perpetuating the stigma that most glbt people are weird/wrong/ etc.

to start out i like to mention when it comes to 'roles' or 'lifestyle' i don't consider myself to be apart of the dom/me,sub/slave,switch area and strictly only an ageplayer so you can get a basic understanding that i tend not to talk authoritative on things that are outside my realm/not my thing but at the same time i respect those that are outside my realm, it's just not my thing and because of it i don't know much of it because i haven't kept up with much but some basic understanding. recently after reading coments on this board i had a thought in my head and i didn't understand why anyone would want to look at someone scening or participate in a scene that's public so i go to a chatroom and ask people that i know frequent real life bdsm groups in their area why do they like it/do it? the basic anserw i got was they were either exhibisonist/voyers/ it's their kink/ or they don't have the equiupment to do so at home.

unfortunatly getting there was hard. first off i was being bombarded and attacked when i would give anserws to their questions regarding my thoughts and feelings on what ageplay is to me. afterwards they were attacking me because of my age, to which i do not think you can decide someone is immature or not within 15 mintues of talking to them. afterwards i thanked them for anserwing and stated how i am an open minded person, i belive anyone should be able to do anything as long as it's not harming someone. such as bungee jumping, it's okay if you do it but personally it's not my thing but i am not judging someone that is a bungee jumper just because it's not my thing. so i thanked them for helping me understand and explained what i meant by being open minded and saying it didn't 'convert' me, basically i understand now but i still don't personally like it/seeing myself do it anytime soon and they just blew up after that. apparently they were comming that i had to agree with them that it was fun or something that i would like to do.

the majority of the time i have tried to ask people about subjects that are related to the one i mentioned earlier it usually ends up personally attacking my lifestyle and kink, my real age, and personal attacks. and just like the glbt group, when i made it adressed that there was some foul play of attitude going around  they dimished it and said how i was just another person that misunderstood and didn't get them.

isn't it perpetuating the stigma of the lifestyle of people like me who don't know anything get rushed/attacked when trying to ask basic questions to those that know and live it?
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: perpetuating the stigma? - 9/15/2006 4:36:41 PM   
mstrjx


Posts: 2045
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jesskitty

isn't it perpetuating the stigma of the lifestyle of people like me who don't know anything get rushed/attacked when trying to ask basic questions to those that know and live it?



I don't know if I'm quite the right track, but I will try to address this.

First, you are 19.  You 'are' young.  But that doesn't mean that your opinions or your attempts to learn should be devalued.

Some who bring questions here do so in such a manner that they do not seem serious or intelligent.  They might 'seem' to be here just to provoke nonsense.  And they often succeed.  I don't think we mean them harm per se; I believe that they if they aren't serious to begin with, then they wouldn't see how others respond as an attack.

Perhaps I should look back at other threads you have participated in to see if you were treated in such a manner.

You have a specific interest that many here do not understand.  You lay claim to being open-minded, and I have no reason to doubt that.  Unfortunately not everyone here is, much to my own personal chagrine.  You would think that if 'we' agree we're going to be different than the vanilla population that we would at least recognize some sort of kinship with the others here, even if we don't understand or participate in just the same events.

If the question is how should approach the CM forums, then I would say to be prepared to have a thickish skin at first.  Show your intelligence and that you are reasonable.  You will gain respect, and you will eventually get more recognition.

I sure hope I was on the right track with this.  It would be all too much to erase this.

Jeff

_____________________________

Know thyself. It's the best gift you can ever give yourself.

(in reply to jesskitty)
Profile   Post #: 2
RE: perpetuating the stigma? - 9/15/2006 9:46:29 PM   
jesskitty


Posts: 185
Joined: 9/4/2006
Status: offline 		it's pretty much. i wasn't talking about the CM forums, i was talking about another chatroom discussion. i haven't been on CM long enough to forum an opinoin about it's forums or people on here except for so far so good. :) i was merely talking about other chatrooms/forums bdsm related(specially in this one bondage dot com). and i do understand that i am young age wise but as you stated, i feel that the older people should stop bellittling my thoughts and sterotyping me just because i am young. and more to my main point, it seems to me that stigma is increased with groups when you treat people who asks questions like that.*shrugs* i guess i just wanted to see if anyone understand the logic here and hopefully share it so others can read and hopefully think twice before they do it to someone else, as well as a reminder for me if i happen to be able to fall prey to acting like that on another subject.

(in reply to mstrjx)
Profile   Post #: 3
RE: perpetuating the stigma? - 9/15/2006 9:54:35 PM   
Tamerofwild1s


Posts: 1765
Joined: 12/5/2004
Status: offline 		just my opinion . but for a young lady you seem to be a hell of alot wiser then the juvenille actions of those who did not know how to conduct themselves .. it seems to me all they did was make shit worse for themselves and you would be in your right mind to leave that group to live and learn .. I wish you well on your endeavors personally and think you will do fine in your journey as long as you remember to think with the samelevel head you have been using thus far.
 
chat rooms tend to develop cliques in them and start harassing others especially new people not giving them a chance to learn . memyself I personally take pride in sharing with others what I know and my thoughts on subjects.
 
good luck with you young lady and know your doing the right thing

_____________________________

A building get torched. All that is left is ashes. I used to think that it is true about everything - family, friends, feelings - but now I know that sometimes if love proves real, and two people are meant to be together, nothing can keep them apart ~

(in reply to jesskitty)
Profile   Post #: 4
RE: perpetuating the stigma? - 9/16/2006 1:20:10 AM   
MaamJay


Posts: 2101
Joined: 9/2/2005
Status: offline 		As to behaviour in a public eating place, then as far as I am concerned, the behaviour exhibited by some in the group you described was grossly irresponsible. We run munches here, social gatherings in a pub or restaurant, and people are given clear instructions that they are to dress "normally", no toys are to be produced for show and tell, and conversation is to be discreet. While people may call each other Master or Mistress, this is done in normal or quiet tones, not loud enough to call attention, and not when food is arriving at the table! Our mantra is SSC ... and the general public didn't consent, so that sort of behaviour is wrong in that context. Our group doesn't rate a second look by anyone and that's how it should be. The way I look at it is this ... if anyone known to Me in vanilla life were to walk into that venue, I shouldn't feel uneasy that I am seen there with that group of people. And that should apply to everyone there.

That's very different from play parties, which We also run. These are held in Dungeons attached to someone's home, and only those known to the group are given the address. Therefore there are NO "general public" there, and anyone being invited is informed of what sort of things happen at the party and what the behaviour protocols are. A lot can be learned from discreetly watching others scening, and many subs (my sub side included!) enjoy being a bit exhibitionist when playing. Plus, there is a lot of equipment available that other people don't have at their place, so they enjoy using it. There is also a sense while playing of finding your own space, you become less and less aware of the other people in the Dungeon, especially if any sensory deprivation (blindfolds etc) are used. It's a long way from being "public".

I concur with other posters that said that you sound a lot more mature than many older than you, and I applaud that. Perhaps you've been frequenting the wrong chatrooms, I know I am more than happy to answer questions and pass on what I have learned. In fact, try NOT having Me answer qns LOL ... it's the teacher in Me ...

Mistress Jay aka violet[A]

_____________________________

Life is a song ... and I love singing it! (By me!)

(in reply to Tamerofwild1s)
Profile   Post #: 5
RE: perpetuating the stigma? - 9/16/2006 7:20:47 AM   
CreativeDominant


Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jesskitty

so i know before i get into this not everyone on these bdsm forums or chatrooms talks like this but i have come across a good percentage to ask this question.

on my university there is a gay,straight,lesbian,bisexual, transgered, questioning, glbt friendly club. being bisexual i joined the group and like being around people with similar sexuality/community/etc. being a support group/social group after every meeting once a week we would go out and eat at a resturant. the first couple of times the people that were coupled would get stared out for just showing affection to their partner. recently though they were being loud, talking about porn, doing sexual gesuters, etc and just not handeling themselves well in public and family eating establishments. last time i went they were talking explicitly about their sex life, adult stores, and doing gestures and movements loud and big enough for a 10 year old to hear who was with his family at the time. after telling them this isn't something a 10 year old should say, they responded by feeling patronized and saying 'recruite them young' and 'so, what PENIS! PROSTITUE! them staring at me wil just make me talk louder'. so what turned out to be a good social group where people were starring because of sexuality differences, turned out to be staring due to the majority of the group not holding themselves well and perpetuating the stigma that most glbt people are weird/wrong/ etc.

to start out i like to mention when it comes to 'roles' or 'lifestyle' i don't consider myself to be apart of the dom/me,sub/slave,switch area and strictly only an ageplayer so you can get a basic understanding that i tend not to talk authoritative on things that are outside my realm/not my thing but at the same time i respect those that are outside my realm, it's just not my thing and because of it i don't know much of it because i haven't kept up with much but some basic understanding. recently after reading coments on this board i had a thought in my head and i didn't understand why anyone would want to look at someone scening or participate in a scene that's public so i go to a chatroom and ask people that i know frequent real life bdsm groups in their area why do they like it/do it? the basic anserw i got was they were either exhibisonist/voyers/ it's their kink/ or they don't have the equiupment to do so at home.

unfortunatly getting there was hard. first off i was being bombarded and attacked when i would give anserws to their questions regarding my thoughts and feelings on what ageplay is to me. afterwards they were attacking me because of my age, to which i do not think you can decide someone is immature or not within 15 mintues of talking to them. afterwards i thanked them for anserwing and stated how i am an open minded person, i belive anyone should be able to do anything as long as it's not harming someone. such as bungee jumping, it's okay if you do it but personally it's not my thing but i am not judging someone that is a bungee jumper just because it's not my thing. so i thanked them for helping me understand and explained what i meant by being open minded and saying it didn't 'convert' me, basically i understand now but i still don't personally like it/seeing myself do it anytime soon and they just blew up after that. apparently they were comming that i had to agree with them that it was fun or something that i would like to do.

the majority of the time i have tried to ask people about subjects that are related to the one i mentioned earlier it usually ends up personally attacking my lifestyle and kink, my real age, and personal attacks. and just like the glbt group, when i made it adressed that there was some foul play of attitude going around  they dimished it and said how i was just another person that misunderstood and didn't get them.

isn't it perpetuating the stigma of the lifestyle of people like me who don't know anything get rushed/attacked when trying to ask basic questions to those that know and live it?


You know, I used to just hate it when people would tell me "you're too young to understand/know/feel" whatever it was they felt I was too young for.  I heard it at 16, at 18, even in some cases at 21, 22.  In my mind, the main obstacle that youth brings to the occasion is inexperience in many areas and the perspective that comes with experience.  It does NOT bring a lack of intelligence or the inability to learn.  As a matter of fact, it often seems that young people tend to have a more open mind about things precisely because they do not have a lot of experience and so have not had their biases built or badly colored yet. 

Keep asking questions.  Those that don't want to engage in conversation or anything else with you are the ones that experience the loss...the chance to be able to see things again from a young person's eyes...the chance to teach someone who is willing to learn.

(in reply to jesskitty)
Profile   Post #: 6
RE: perpetuating the stigma? - 9/16/2006 8:32:52 AM   
becca333


Posts: 1050
Joined: 4/11/2006
Status: offline 		Their behaviour was totally out of line, no matter what their sexual orientation.  If mainstream missionary position hetero vanillas were behaving that way it'd be just as wrong - nobody of any orientation should behave like that around children.  Technically, in some areas that behaviour constitutes abuse of the child, too.

And it IS frustrating being told that you're too young to have a valid opinion.  There's a huge difference between youth and immaturity - you're young, they're immature.  Dump them and find a better group - sooner or later they'll cause you problems.  You deserve better friends than that.

(in reply to CreativeDominant)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: perpetuating the stigma? - 9/16/2006 9:01:17 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		You have to understand this about cyber culture, most especially in chatrooms- there is a strict heirarchy that becomes established amongst the regulars, which must be frequently re-established and fought for.

You are/were an outsider.  You might bring new ideas that would be against the elders of the heirarchy, you might challenge them for the heirarchy, and just in general, you present an opportunity for them to spread their superiority.

You are also young- this is considered not only prime competetive meat against the other doms which frequent chat rooms which must be eliminated, but also frequently reminders of what they are not- new and young and available. 

Remember that this has nothing to do with YOU- you could have a PhD at age 15, tutored under Midori for 5 years and been on the board of TES since you were 18.  This is a cyber chat room and you are the new young chick asking questions (which shows you want something from them and aren't established your status quo).

The good news is that we're talking about middle aged women whose primary form of fulfillment in life is to spend HOURS, on almost a DAILY basis to form their cyber court and who get serious momentary satisfaction at trying to smash your young clueless brain into the cyber wall.  These people really are the least you need to be concerned with.

The boards are much better in terms of longer heirarchy, as well as a strong youthful support group which does not tolerate blatant ageism. 

As far as your real life GLBTA group- you're right, they were behaving badly, and it has nothing to do with them being put down upon.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to jesskitty)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: perpetuating the stigma? - 9/16/2006 9:30:36 AM   
PrimitiveLogic


Posts: 145
Joined: 4/25/2006
From: Md.
Status: offline 		     In regard to the restaurant issue...this is where age is the issue. There was a group of young college age people who were feeling empowered to be themselves. However they chose to not repect the public surroundings, as pre-adults are prone to do. It may be seen as a way to test the waters of seeing how much they could get away with...testing the limits of the public, so to speak.  Or a simple, I am different than you so too bad! Manners are a perceptual and fluid entity. The groups manners and expectations clearly have set them apart for yours. They seem to be evolving into a different sphere where acting out is more important than living well...ah youth.
Unfortunately I can't say I hadn't been there and done that myself to some degree at that age as well. I did most of my acting out through  rock n roll bands...(first one was in the 6th grade, still actively playing) I had larger audiences and you knew pepole were looking at you from the start.
  As to the ageism...
I completely agree with the prior statements of 'courts' and hierarchies. Often it doesn't matter who, or how old you are...a constipated room will still make it hard for you. The new person does upset the status quo of old hens and pompous cocks. Aside from using the rooms to learn how not to be; they are quite boring if you really listen to what goes on (not much).  As with any growth, find those who support your vision/give positive focused advice/ show a balance of pro and con on subjects/ and don't have a hidden agenda that you get swept up into.
   This group here has a wide balance of brutal honesty tempered with humor and the ability to clarify points witout too much mayhem.  Good luck on your personal quest !

< Message edited by PrimitiveLogic -- 9/16/2006 9:33:42 AM >

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: perpetuating the stigma? - 9/16/2006 9:46:56 AM   
jesskitty


Posts: 185
Joined: 9/4/2006
Status: offline 		i think there is abit of confusion going on. the first is a glbt meeting that i used to analogize to the people in the bdsm related chatroom. so it's a group of two different people, but in my mind were acting the same in the sense of perpetuating a stigma of how certain people who are not the norm 'act' to normal people.


oh and just for an update, i gave the glbt group one more outing and a meeting before i made any real judgement to stay or go. after which i decided to leave so it's not really an issue, once again just a recent event i like to relate the whole chatting/forum expereinces i've had that i think perpetuates negative connotations with certain groups(once again not relating to this forum, so far this one seems to be the exception).


< Message edited by jesskitty -- 9/16/2006 9:54:36 AM >

(in reply to MaamJay)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: perpetuating the stigma? - 9/16/2006 9:49:55 AM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		I'm a bit unsure whether we are talking in public or in chatrooms here, it seems to be both.

When in a restaurant or something like that, not only do children need to be considered, the childish attitudes of others come into play as well. Also there are some who don't want to hear anything sexual except in a certain place and time and this ain't it, and they have that right IMO.

However, when you get on IRC at bondage com you have a right to expect some tolerance. I found one of the ops at one room quite intolerant of me, even though I had done nothing wrong. Straight up, the room was #subversity and I got bounced one too many times for no good reason. My last words to them were "Goodbye forever" and I meant it and I mean it. The ONLY reason I might ever go there is to troll for members to join another room. Fuck them, with a name like that, and one bitch doesn't like my kink ? Change the name to "This bitch's room" and be done with it.

I was a a kink club and I saw some things I didn't like, or put more aptly, didn't turn me on. As stoic as I am I must admit to having feelings. Sometimes these are negative, but I think as an adult we don't act on our feelings. I didn't stare, I turned my attention to things that did turn me on. That simple.

I'm sure that some here would find some of my kinks disgusting, not all, just some. I have never been insulted because of it, at least not here. I wll give the same respect and tolerance to others as they give to me.

That's my two cents for now.

T

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: perpetuating the stigma? - 9/16/2006 10:46:09 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		The story you have related reminded me of a former boyfriend and what he told me about a subculture that he belongs to, namely the deaf community (he became deaf at the age of 13). He told me that he went out to eat with a bunch of people who are a part of an organization for the deaf. While out they intentionally made a lot of noise to disturb hearing individuals, they made a lot of demands on their server, and then they left a huge mess and stiffed the server.

The reason from what he related was anger at the hearing community, perceived oppression of their subculture, and a feeling of entitlement when together that became "group think" because there is strength in numbers... now whether or not he is correct in his assessment I do not know (he was highly educated and articulate). He felt much as you did about the incident, as though it reflected badly on the community at large and he never went to another group meeting.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to jesskitty)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: perpetuating the stigma? - 9/16/2006 1:19:30 PM   
Tamerofwild1s


Posts: 1765
Joined: 12/5/2004
Status: offline
quote:

The good news is that we're talking about middle aged women whose primary form of fulfillment in life is to spend HOURS, on almost a DAILY basis to form their cyber court and who get serious momentary satisfaction at trying to smash your young clueless brain into the cyber wall.  These people really are the least you need to be concerned with.


gawd I just love the way you expressed that LA . so almost right on the button .. I don't think ALL women do that but in general MOST are and do act exactly like this . if a power failure occured they would have a holy coniption fit

< Message edited by Tamerofwild1s -- 9/16/2006 1:24:20 PM >

_____________________________

A building get torched. All that is left is ashes. I used to think that it is true about everything - family, friends, feelings - but now I know that sometimes if love proves real, and two people are meant to be together, nothing can keep them apart ~

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: perpetuating the stigma? - 9/16/2006 1:58:27 PM   
Mavis


Posts: 828
Joined: 2/8/2004
Status: offline 		it's not just youth when entering a new chat room.  On msg boards, we have the option of looking up a posters previous comments.. that puts a lot of what is said in perspective.  when you're new to a chat,  the only perspective is what is said on that screen alone, and very few of us would want to be judged on that much info.  Time spent in the same company over time lessens the chance of being misunderstood.

As far as the group acting like idiots in public,  it's a common problem as well.   While gays worked for years and years to convince the populace "we aren't here to convert you" and "you can stop fearing us now"  the younger male gays i know are having a riot of a time telling straight guys "I'll get to you eventually" and ruining a lot of groundwork laid with sweat and blood. 

Some will always feel we do a better job of showing ourselves as parts of society as a whole, but others like the idea of separating from society and creating Us vs Them attitudes. Maybe it gives them something more clearly defined to "belong" to.  :: sigh ::  It looks like you've chosen the whole society tact..  welcome :) 

(in reply to Tamerofwild1s)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: perpetuating the stigma? - 9/16/2006 2:03:01 PM   
DivaDuchess


Posts: 402
Joined: 8/17/2006
Status: offline 		Hmmm ... forget the sugar coating of these CHILDREN ... they were very wrong to behave as they did.  Throw them off and find yourself some real people with respect or themselves, yes, but others as well.  This group you were with, showed neither, for themselves or others.  RUN in the other direction.  Quickly.


_____________________________

Duchess

Courage is not the absence of Fear,
But rather the judgement that,
Something else is more important than Fear.

The Brave may not live forever,
But the Cautious do not live at all.

(in reply to Tamerofwild1s)
Profile   Post #: 15
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