RE: Broken? (Full Version)

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MasterFireMaam -> RE: Broken? (9/18/2006 8:01:58 AM)

Anyone can be psychologically broken, given the right techniques. Talk to any professional interrogator.

Master Fire




WhipTheHip -> RE: Broken? (9/18/2006 8:34:08 AM)

Yes, people's will can be broken.  Religions do it, cults do it, dictators do it, interogators do it, pimps do it.   
Some doms do it and some dommes do it.  I really worry about male and female subs with large financial
assets losing everything they have.   Women often have a hard time identifying and leaving abusive
relationships.  This is especially true for women who were abused and only know abusive relationships.
A lot of females may think an abusive relationship is normal, bucause that is the only kind of
relationship they have ever known.  They may compare their current abusive relationship with
past relationships that were much more abusive.
 




Mavis -> RE: Broken? (9/18/2006 8:58:34 AM)

There is another thread discussing the semantics of this over here...

http://www.collarchat.com/m_584608/mpage_1/key_/tm.htm#584608

It's another one of those perception is reality things, definitions, intent, choice of words, implication of meaning..  yadayda.  Enjoy! 




patience21 -> RE: Broken? (9/18/2006 9:19:53 AM)

Abuse is a word tossed around on these boards like candy is tossed at a parade.  There is never a place for abuse in life.  If one is being abused he/she is not into a consensual lifestyle. 

There are many definitions in BDSM about 'breaking' and to think that means someone is NOT a Master/Mistress, NOT a Dom/Domme is foolish.
Also that any sub/slave that does not find this abusive is stupid or misguided.

Once we begin to judge others, we only see things one way, and wow how boring that would be.

patience




Amaros -> RE: Broken? (9/18/2006 9:43:53 AM)

adj.
1    split or cracked into pieces; splintered, fractured, burst, etc.
2    not in working condition; out of order !a broken watch"
3    not kept or observed; violated !a broken promise"
4    disrupted, as by divorce !a broken home"
5    sick, weakened, or beaten !broken health, a broken spirit"
6    bankrupt
7    not even or continuous; interrupted !broken terrain, broken tones"
8    not complete !a broken set of Shakespeare‘s works"
9    imperfectly spoken, esp. with reference to grammar and syntax !broken English"
10    subdued and trained; tamed
11    [Colloq.] demoted in rank For phrases, see BREAK

I suspect the semantic difference here is more the distinction between being "broken in", i.e., def. 10, as opposed to "broken", as in incomplete, weakened, in need of repair, etc.

Breaking in a horse, for example, involves breaking it to the saddle and bit, not neccessaily to break it's spirit - more like a tempering of the will.

My experience with military training is similar: one is broken of willfullness (theoretically) not in spirit, nor neccessarily in will - to varying degrees according to the service. The Navy, for instance, trains a modicum of dicipline, but encourages independent thinking and analysis - these are neccessary in doing the job of the Navy, which is primarily support, and one wears many hats - I was trained primarily in weapon systems, but crosstrained in airframes, engines, etc., etc..

Meanwhile deadening routine has a somewhat negative effect on the spirit, IMO, and to counteract this, dicipline is relaxed in the fleet to some extent, and individuality encouraged - sailors will seldom willingly march if there isn't a band playing, while watchstanding, professional responsibility, accountability, etc. are strictly enforced the same as the other services.

Marines on the other hand, emerge from basic training with seemingly every vestige of what is ordinarily called common sense utterly stripped from them, while their spirit is though the roof - they are ready to charge up a beach straight into enemy fire without batting an eye.

They do seem to recover in time, most of them, but it's a training program designed to, initially at least, submerge every trace of independent identity, will or ego, to produce and individual who will follow any order, no matter how ridiculous, instantly and without hesitation or question.

Naturally, they wouldn't last long on the battlefield if this state of affairs were to persist, and the cannier ones survive to become NCO's - care is taken also that officers are essentially on par with enlisted men in term of combat readiness, which cuts down somewhat on the aforementioned senseless orders thing - all Marines are riflemen from the Commandant down - but instant obedience becomes part of every Marine, and the other ground combat services are similar to varying degrees.

This is a bit similar to BDSM, I believe, one desires willing, even enthusiastic obedience, not neccessarily robotic detachment - in the field, the NCO's and the grunts are the officers eyes and ears, and must be able to make instant decisions of life and death for the entire squad, they would of little utility if they didn't retain or regain some measure of will, at least within the context of the unit.

I dunno though, I think I like the Horse metaphor better - there still always remains something vaguely suspicious and stupid about military training, however neccessary.




Sinergy -> RE: Broken? (9/18/2006 9:50:33 AM)

Hello A/all,

There was a line from the Lord of the Rings which I will attempt to paraphrase.

Saruman:  A white page can be written on, a white robe can be dirtied, white earth can be sullied!

Gandalf:  In which case it is no longer white.  True wisdom does not involve changing something from what it is into something it is not.

I have to agree with this sentiment.  A person who takes somebody in, even consensually, and then breaks them in order to rebuild them into something they think they should be whether they are or not seems misguided.  I want the synergy of my partnership to give us together more power than you would get combining our individual powers apart. 

I dont personally think I am all-wise and all-knowing to the point I consider other people to be (or should be) a tabula rasa I can pour what I think they should be in to.  I have worked with kids and other people since I was in high school.  I want to assist other people to blossom into whatever it is they are supposed to blossom into.  I prefer to not consider them some sort of weird Bonsai experiment put in this place at this time for my amusement, to be discarded if the branch I try to mold into place just so doesnt work out.

Just me, etc.

Sinergy




ownedgirlie -> RE: Broken? (9/18/2006 10:12:34 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

Gandalf:  In which case it is no longer white.  True wisdom does not involve changing something from what it is into something it is not.


This is a great quote (My Master really likes Gandalf, lol).  But sometimes we need to change from what we are, to what we want to be.  And sometimes this requires breaking away the layers that prevent us from going there.

I'm not fond of the word "breaking."  My Master has never used it, either.  He merely used his knowledge of me to bring me to the place I needed to go, by the means required to get there.  He did tell me once, "You will lose your baggage or I will strip it from you."  That which I clung to tightly without even reazling, was indeed stripped from me.  And how liberating it is, to have become who and what I wanted and needed to be.

It took finesse and clear attention on his part, and a lot of work on mine.  It was painful, it was joyous, and it has been deeply fulfilling.




KeirasSecret -> RE: Broken? (9/18/2006 10:25:30 AM)

Being new to the lifestyle my answer is mainly based on my opinion of  being broken in general and my own experience with it.
I must say I think of being broken as being damaged or loosing something and having it left that way. This is something anyone can do to another.
In which case I say yes to all of the above.
With that said I must add; in my relationship with my Dom I do not feel this is whats happening. I have not lost my will, instead it is changing, and the only things that have been broken are some misconceived preseptions I've had. Therefore anything torn down is being rebuilt and anything taken is replaced with something else. So I do not consider this being broken but more like helping me to evolve.
I'm a very lucky girl!
(thank you Sir)....smiles





RiotGirl -> RE: Broken? (9/18/2006 1:40:38 PM)

See how negative everybody is?

Everyone wants to jump to the "bad" broken instead of trying to explore and think about the "good" broken.  Thank you Mr Discipline for not being afraid to stand out and speak about the "good" side of it and getting the ball flowing in that direction.  It be nice if folks could go abit more in depth about the "good" side. 




Mavis -> RE: Broken? (9/18/2006 1:47:30 PM)

Riot, i think we did on that other thread.  i hate split topics <g>  Either means reposting what was already said and sounding like a harpy.. or dropping out entirely because it's just too much for my widdle head to wrap twice..




wantitnow569 -> RE: Broken? (9/18/2006 1:52:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip

Yes, people's will can be broken.  Religions do it, cults do it, dictators do it, interogators do it, pimps do it.   
Some doms do it and some dommes do it.  I really worry about male and female subs with large financial
assets losing everything they have.   Women often have a hard time identifying and leaving abusive
relationships.  This is especially true for women who were abused and only know abusive relationships.
A lot of females may think an abusive relationship is normal, bucause that is the only kind of
relationship they have ever known.  They may compare their current abusive relationship with
past relationships that were much more abusive.
 


No disrespect intended...HOWEVER, why is it that with every one of Your posts You appear to desire to come off as some sort of expert as a women's therapist, counselor, educator, or in fact a woman herself?? Are You one?? What is your attraction to women who have indeed been abused.. Is it the vicarious pleasure that You receive from hearing their horror stories or what? You totally scare me, much unlike 100% of the rest of the online world..I think You are a truly scarey and dangerous individual..




MrDiscipline44 -> RE: Broken? (9/18/2006 4:35:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: becca333

Wow struck a nerve with that one!

Interestingly defensive reaction.

Sorry if I made you uncomfortable.  I didn't realise that expressing a different opinion to you made you feel so threatened.
It's not what you said, sweetheart, it's how you said it. You were rude for no reason. So I felt no reason to extend courtesy that appearently was beyond your reach. Plain and simple. And what you said above easily applies to you as much as it would to anyone.




MrDiscipline44 -> RE: Broken? (9/18/2006 4:47:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RiotGirl

See how negative everybody is?

Everyone wants to jump to the "bad" broken instead of trying to explore and think about the "good" broken.  Thank you Mr Discipline for not being afraid to stand out and speak about the "good" side of it and getting the ball flowing in that direction.  It be nice if folks could go abit more in depth about the "good" side. 

You're very welcome.




cravespleasure -> RE: Broken? (9/18/2006 6:45:07 PM)

I think that broken can be construed in many ways which is why this topic could be a bit of a lightning rod.

There is a negative breaking, and a positive breaking.

I think it is very possible that an individual could be broken in such a way that they see no purpose in their life, and they stop living. They may be making motions because they are expected of them, and it's all they have. The element that makes them individual whatever that is.. a soul, a spirit.. their mind?

ETA: Didn't see the second page on this topic before.. so yes :) good and bad broken as previously mentioned.




Sinergy -> RE: Broken? (9/18/2006 6:54:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

I'm not fond of the word "breaking."  My Master has never used it, either.  He merely used his knowledge of me to bring me to the place I needed to go, by the means required to get there. 



Hello A/all,

I suppose I misspoke.  The point I was trying to make is there is an element to the word "breaking" a submissive which seems to me to encapsulate a complete disregard for who that person is.

I can understand your statement that a good Dominant can work to change the submissive in a positive way.

That is not the way I view broken.  A broken horse can be saddled and will do the exact minimum it needs to do to survive.  A horse that is trained and honored for it's gift of submission to human control will not desert it's owner when the world turns dark for both of them.

Just me, etc.

Sinergy




ownedgirlie -> RE: Broken? (9/18/2006 8:27:39 PM)

I understand what you're saying, Sinergy, and I agree (except with the gift part but that's a different topic lol).




Mavis -> RE: Broken? (9/18/2006 8:37:10 PM)

Synergy, i understand and would agree that if breaking is to remove an essential part of the sub, it's a bad thing.  but for me,  breaking my willfulness was something i needed, wanted, and it was no different to me than a Dom who encourages/ enables one to shed physical pounds or emotional baggage.   (consentually)

(like a kid, i'm still always asking "Are W/we there yet?")




angielouwhos -> RE: Broken? (9/18/2006 9:36:41 PM)

I think I different viewpoint on the word broken then many. To being "undone" and "broken" and "pruned" are not negatives. To me it seems like a part of life in many contexts, like something that is necessary for growth.

Crushed is different. So is abuse and destruction. Those I do not equate with the word broken.




Sinergy -> RE: Broken? (9/18/2006 9:46:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: angielouwhos

I think I different viewpoint on the word broken then many. To being "undone" and "broken" and "pruned" are not negatives. To me it seems like a part of life in many contexts, like something that is necessary for growth.

Crushed is different. So is abuse and destruction. Those I do not equate with the word broken.


Hello A/all,

I guess the point I am making is what one ends up with at the end of the day.  If the person I am with feels that her life has improved from being with me, then I feel I have done my job.

Just me, etc.

Sinergy




JoanFrost -> RE: Broken? (9/18/2006 10:42:10 PM)

As per my usual, I haven't read this entire thread. I skimmed it though, and am fairly certain I'll not be repeating anything that's already been said. If I'm wrong, please pardon the redundancy.

At the risk of sounding like W. J. Clinton, the answer depends on how you define "broken."

A horse who is "saddle-broke" has simply been trained to accept a saddle. Certainly, there are barbaric methods to "break" a horse, but there are also an abundance of gentler ones. Thus, if you're using the word in an equestrian sense, then a "broken" slave/sub is simply one who has been taught to accomodate the wishes/needs/et cetera  of the master/dom. Also worth mentioning in this context is that a horse whose leg is broken, at least until fairly recently, was usually considered to be beyond rehabilitation, and was destroyed.

Obviously broken horse-leg "broken" is reprehensible and very likely prosecutable as a crime (i.e. torture, mental cruelty, or whatever your state or country calls it). The other variety of broken though, isn't that what we strive for?

Just a thought.

Joan




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