Following in his footsteps. How do you deal?

Following in his footsteps. How do you deal? (Full Version)

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Lashra -> Following in his footsteps. How do you deal? (9/19/2006 2:16:23 AM)
Now before anyone starts flaming me as a " man hater" I truly am not. I just do not believe that a man is a superior being, nor do I believe a woman is superior. Both are human therefore both are flawed. We each have our strengths and weaknesses but most of all we ALL have value as individuals. So with that said let me continue. I am curious as to how other women deal with men who disrespect you as a person due to your gender alone. As most people know I am a big advocate for equal rights for ALL people and from time to time that means butting heads with those who believe to the contrary. I do not go out picking fights with anyone, I am a "mind my own business" type person. However I do have an opinion and I will voice it where appropriate. To my way of thinking, just because my way isn't your way does not mean that mine is invalid or incorrect, it just means we do not agree. However more than once a male(rarely a female as well) has taken exception to my having an opinion on womens rights and has attempted to verbally (a couple times phyiscally) to try to "change" my point of view. Of course this will never happen as my belief is very deeply rooted. I have often been told that women were "meant" to walk behind a man as it is just the way of things. I do not share this view at all. I believe as people we were meant to walk side-by-side in support of each other. However if a woman chooses to live that way and she is content then I have no problem with that either. As long as it is CONSENSUAL and not forced then there is not a problem. How do you deal with these situations in your day to day routine should they crop up and what if they happen in the work place? I will give you an example of something that happened to me in the work place many moons ago. I was working as a purchasing agent for a large computer software company and I had a male counterpart. We went into our managers office for a meeting. My counterpart had a cup of coffee in his hand and I was sitting reading over my notes. Our manager looks over at ME and says "L, would you get me some coffee?" I stopped reading my notes and looked over at him and said "If you want coffee its down the hall to the left, first door on the right hand side. You will find not only coffee there but cups, stirs, creamer and sugar." I resumed looking over my notes. My manager stood up and said "Well I guess I will go get myself some coffee. Be right back." I was a purchasing agent, not a waitress, not this man's mother nor his wife. It wasn't my job to get him coffee and his legs were not broken. So why ask me to fetch his coffee instead of getting up and fetching it himself? It is this sort of behavior that personally makes me angry. I am also very blunt in my speaking and unafraid to voice my displeasure when such disrespect is tossed into my direction. How do you deal ladies? and if any men read this post have you been the target of another male and treated with the same disrespect for some reason? ~Lashra

MaamJay -> RE: Following in his footsteps. How do you deal? (9/19/2006 3:41:17 AM)
Oh this reminds Me of a classic one in My workplace some years back. At the time I was a schoolteacher and, even more rarely, head of the Science Dept. Attending a PD for such HODs ... ALL except Me were male. All was going well till the facilitator asked us to break into small groups. Now, I LIKE scribing and reporting back for a group and I am very skilled at it. I was about to volunteer when one male said (appointing himself as head of the group): "J, as you're the only woman here, you'll scribe won't you". I just stared back in shock and said, "No, I won't". So then everyone else was in shock, and sat there silent until one guy, looking acutely embarrassed, got out a pen and said "It's OK, I'll do it". Later he came to Me and said how appalling he thought that behaviour had been and hoped I didn't think they were all like that! He and I became good friends and swapped quite a lot of resources over the years. I even got My revenge though ... as My career progressed I eventually got to a situation where I had to appraise the chauvinist bastard! While I tried to be fair about it ... he didn't get top score! So I am with You, while I think neither sex nor gender is superior, both are flawed and I won't stand for people telling Me that certain behaviours are typecast by being male or female! Mistress Jay aka violet[A]

LadyEllen -> RE: Following in his footsteps. How do you deal? (9/19/2006 4:51:17 AM)
MaamJay and Lashra described the very same thing that happened to me - and exactly the same reaction I gave! Though as some will know, my circumstances are a little different! At one dim and distant point in someone else's life, I was the male general manager of a company, with total responsibility for all manner of things. Then I became me - I was stripped of almost all responsibility, and new (less experienced, less qualified, less successful) male managers were brought in. I was a little surprised at being invited to the management meetings, since I was now little more than a secretary (though still on my former pay and benefits as marketing manager), but I thought, maybe they want my knowledge and experience? WRONG I was there to make the drinks and take the notes. I was furious and asked them why I should be the one to do this? If I am the marketing manager, then surely I am on equal footing with the males in the room and they should find themselves a waitress and secretary if that was what was needed? Their reaction was one which will stay with me forever - a look of total confusion, and the TOTALLY GENUINE question as to whether I was sure I wanted to be treated as a woman after all? Needless to say, they went thirsty and made their own notes. Treating someone as a woman does not equal treating them as an inferior - something I never did myself, but was blind to it happening all around me until I crossed that line. My advice - never play into their game. Let them open doors and carry stuff for you (they love to do it after all), but never let them think you are anything less than their equal. And if they have a problem with that, just walk away - otherwise you just reinforce them in their negative views of women. E

TNstepsout -> RE: Following in his footsteps. How do you deal? (9/19/2006 5:22:24 AM)
Interesting stories. Thankfully I've never encountered such blatant sexism. Perhaps too in business I was usually in a clerk or assistant position and if asked to provide a support function I did not contrue it as sexist. I suppose in those situation I would probably react with great sarcasm. My weapon of choice. Something like "well yes, I'd be happy to get your coffee, but I can't guarantee the quality, you see I failed miserably at Coffeemaking 101, that's why I switched majors and got a degree in Business".

thetammyjo -> RE: Following in his footsteps. How do you deal? (9/19/2006 7:36:50 AM)
How do you deal with sexism of the subtle form that you mentioned? Just like you did, point out how they can take care of themselves. Not just but also women who act like they can't change paper in a copy or kill a bug or carry something. If you have any authority, tell them to do it themselves, if you don't have authority over them just roll your eyes and ignore them and if they ask why make some comment about how you didn't realize they were in a body cast, they must hide it well. Perfereably don't associate with them for longer than you need. Certainly don't engage in friendly chatter because I suspect that is seen as positive re-enforcement for the stupid things they say and do. The fact is that they act like that and say things like that because they get smiles, laughter, or small friendly tallk. If they didn't, they'd stop and either change things or focuse on the task at hand. I personally think that we have turned work into "friendships" and that hurts work effeciency and then requires more time to do less. Not to mention how many times folks feel betrayed by "friends" at work over promotions or pay raises -- just focus on your job and have your friends elsewhere.

MasterFireMaam -> RE: Following in his footsteps. How do you deal? (9/19/2006 7:42:28 AM)
Well, as with talking to religious people who are fully entrenched in their beliefs, it is sometimes not worth expending your energy trying to convince people of a different point of view. Nor is it a decent way to use your energy by rising to the bait, if they want an argument. Simply refuse to do the stereotypical behavior that you find offensive (some women don’t find it offensive, remember) and move on. I have a myspace page (www.myspace.com/masterfire) where I list stuff about me for friendship and dating. Occasionally, I get contacted by men who are just idiots. Sometimes, if they contact me nicely (idiots can be polite), I’ll write back and correct their thinking. For example, I just had a man contact me, complimenting my pictures, which tells me right there what he’s about. Still, I understand that sometimes, men just don’t know how else to approach a women. I checked out his profile and we actually have a great deal in common, so I wrote back, complimenting his. He then wrote asking if I’d wear a certain outfit for him. I wrote back explaining that I dress to suit myself. I haven’t heard from him since. Pity. Midori once told me a story about one of the first date things she likes to do. She used to be in the military and knows a great deal about guns. If the man expresses an interest in, and perhaps knowledge of, guns, she’ll take the guy to a gun range and see how he reacts to a woman who knows a hell of a lot more about them than he does. She considers a second date, in part, based on if she can teach him. Of course, this is assuming that she knows more. She’s not averse to learning, either. But, we can go overboard here, too. I once was in a meeting with a room full of military men. It was about 2 years after Tailhook, so they’d had sensitivity training up the wazoo. The guy in charge asked the room in general where the guys from my office were. I spoke up, trying to smooth the situation over and indicate that SOMEone was there for the project. I said, “I don’t know where the guys are, but I'm here.” That got taken totally wrong. I knew that he’d meant “guys” in the universal sense. It wasn’t my intent to embarrass the man. For that entire trip, all the officers made an effort to address me whenever they saw me with the team. It was odd…I was the junior member and it made it awkward for my team leader. I’ve felt bad about it ever since. Master Fire

Dommeseeksone -> RE: Following in his footsteps. How do you deal? (9/19/2006 12:11:02 PM)
I can feel for you on so many levels. I was raised in a D/s household where my father believed males were the tops in all levels of life. LOL . You should have seen the look on his face when I came out as a Domme. But I have found that as in the lifestyle toerance for peoples lack of wisdome is all we can do. just stand for your own beliefs and move on. We cannot change others only grow in our own. And as with the example you shared karma can be a bitch...lol. Things have a way of working themselves out. As long as you are true to your ownself you can find peace.

LotusSong -> RE: Following in his footsteps. How do you deal? (9/19/2006 12:22:51 PM)
I would have done the same. However, I would have not looked up from my notes but told him "In a moment, I wish to prepare a bit more for the meeting. However, if you are dire need at the moment.. " then I'd give the instructions that you did. And on the way out the door, you could have sweetly asked if he wouldn't mind checking the restrooms for some paper towels, being that there weren't any napkins in the meeting room. :)

Lashra -> RE: Following in his footsteps. How do you deal? (9/19/2006 1:45:26 PM)
ROFL LotusSong your so wonderfully evil[:D] ~Lashra

littlesarbonn -> RE: Following in his footsteps. How do you deal? (9/19/2006 2:09:34 PM)
I'm reminded of a story of mine from years back when I was attending West Point. Women had been cadets for a few years at this time, so they'd already been indoctrinated into the environment. Sure, there were still problems, as one would expect, but in my first cadet basic training camp there were three women (out of 12 people) AND the squad leader was a woman (which is a completely different story, but let's just say that she discovered her power over me almost immediately and knew far more about power exchange than I did at that time). Anyway, one young woman was Patricia, and of the three women in our squad, she was the only one to remain to the end of the summer. Our squad was kind of a casualty squad as our squad leader was extremely dominating, and most couldn't take it. Only four people made it through the summer: Two guys, Patricia and me. Well, I saw what the male senior cadets put Patricia through, and I was completely amazed at how she managed to hold her ground. I, on the other hand, was a complete f**k up and everyone BUT my squad leader was trying to get me to quit. It was kind of funny because my squad leader first was trying to get me to quit and then once she realized how natural I took to her "directions", she became my greatest fan, although that certainly didn't make my daily life any easier, but even tougher. But I never quit. Anyway, after my time was done, I went looking up some of my summer squad mates (one of the guys was still around and so was Patricia). I met her in her room, and we talked about old times. I asked her, innocently, how she was able to get through what they put her through. She stared at me as if I was the most stupid person in the world (which some have sometimes assumed) and said: "I saw what they did to you, and I said, if they can't break you, they're not going to break me. YOU are the reason I never quit. As a matter of fact, any time I come across a female friend talking about quitting, I tell them your story, and most of the time, they hang in a little longer." The point is: Sometimes our motivations come from places that no one understands.

LotusSong -> RE: Following in his footsteps. How do you deal? (9/19/2006 2:18:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lashra ROFL LotusSong your so wonderfully evil[:D] ~Lashra And if the second time should occur (being I have already told him were the coffee is), I'd slowly raise my eyes up from my notes with the "you've got to be kidding!" Domme Glare, then lower them slowly again to my reading while doing a slow audible sigh. Not one word spoken. I cannot believe this shit still goes on.

LotusSong -> RE: Following in his footsteps. How do you deal? (9/19/2006 2:25:11 PM)
What an absolutely wonder accounting of survival. Thank you! I know at times, if it wasn't for my Slave's strength and common sense, I would have made a fool of myself. I have learned the power of the unspoken word. I had an argument with a neighbor that was over the course of a year, and never uttered one word. She ended up moving. I also make use of a technique I heard in an interview with Anthony Hopkins. The way he portrays mentally unstable people is that he observed that when they look at you, they do not blink.. I added "an eerie calmness". It works.

ToGiveDivine -> RE: Following in his footsteps. How do you deal? (9/19/2006 2:49:54 PM)
The people that actually think they are superior are the fringe and should be avoided or ignored. I'm a white collar type, but that doesn't stop me from conversing and laughing with people who are on a "lower" level in the business world. You have to remember that everyone is a person. The fact that some people like it when others will give them control or some will give their control to others doesn't less them as a human. As for women walking behind men; I know alot of strong women who choose to walk behind some men - it's easier to push them into traffic that way [:D]

PrimitiveLogic -> RE: Following in his footsteps. How do you deal? (9/19/2006 3:06:27 PM)
Having been in health care and a nurse for over 30 years I have been part of a family of quite potent women all these years. The challenge always being; be my own self completely in the midst of powerful women. Respect is the key. I have had the pleasure of learning cooperative success through potency by their example. When people say that nurses take orders well....lets say that there are truly two sides to every story. The other adage is 'nurses eat their own'...weak of spirit need not apply. Lashra has it stated exquisitely from the beginning. We are and should be a complement to one another...not adversaries.

BlueHnS -> RE: Following in his footsteps. How do you deal? (9/19/2006 4:10:02 PM)
Before I married Pain I was a bodyguard. Before I went private I worked for a company. I have to give Robbie ALOT of credit. When a client requested " the best " he would pick from whomever was available from a team of 7 ( 4 men and 3 women) of us. There were several occasions when the client would at introduction say " oh , your uhm ... " and before they could finish (because I already knew where they were headed) I would say something to the effect of "If it will make you feel better I can run to Good Vibrations and buy a penis" To my knowledge, no client ever tried to replace us because we were female and some of them even recommended us.

LadyHugs -> RE: Following in his footsteps. How do you deal? (9/19/2006 4:25:10 PM)
Dear Lashra, Ladies and Gentlemen; Well, I have my share of men who think they were born with a dominant authority once they popped out of the oven. My mind's eye on things, is that the family/parent structure often forms the early years of discipline, respect, compassion and listening. The old family structure of kids should be seen, not heard mentality. So, dominant strength in my lifetime has come from the power of observation and knowing how to do the job better very quietly. My career had me in a hurry up and wait mode, mostly crisis situations where you had to take control period. Working in Washington, DC you're dealing with everything you can imagine. However, bravado isn't wise--but, knowing when to ask for help and waiting until it arrives, even when you're facing a crisis and or life/death event. Because of the time, late 1960's into 1970's, it was most unfriendly for women entering the police forces, the fire department and EMT/ambulance careers. It was also the time where women started into military careers and, where there was white and black men hating each other, when women came in--well, the men formed a confederacy against women. They pulled every dirty trick in the book. They made it twice as hard and we prevailed in great majority. We women had to maintain a higher standard in all respects and perhaps has shaped me into what I am today. Being that I wasn't a super frilly female but, no nonsense in your face but fair woman, I wasn't picked on as much as others who would jump and squeal if a mouse ran across the room or a spider dangled about near them. I also rode and drove horses, did a bit of roping and trick whip work and trick riding, hunted and jumped, did dressage and often rode with the US Park Police equestrian units, in the city limits and outside them. My father, a licensed firearm dealer and repaired weapons for the local police department, I often test fired and was a rather fair shot--enough to qualify for competition shooting. I did archery as well as being an assistant to a wrestling coach in high school, as well as being my father's 'little helper' in maintaining cars. So, when I worked with a bunch of men--I knew at times more than they did and often did it to prove them I could. Most men will shut up when they see a woman is qualified and not collecting lint/dust in a job. But, sadly, there were women who laid their way to success. That didn't help those women who didn't. I worked hard along side of men, be it bales of hay off the fields into the wagon, then into the loft, carrying grain sacks, changing tires, dropping cows for branding and doctoring, sometimes giving them male steers a higher octive when they lost their balls, I've been on arrests and prosecutions, handled cases before the courts and set legal precedences, caused Writs of Mandamus forcing lower courts into doing what they should have and so much more. I've gone into Leather bars and have been spat upon, elbowed, struck and stomped on my feet. Bars were rather rough back then. I stayed polite, respectful and cheerful. I didn't lower myself to the gutter men went into, as to disgrace me. That caught the attention of some serious Leathermen. They didn't see me as a threat, or a tourist, they saw a person on a personal quest. I went back with more knowledge and skills and was supported by those who knew me--I was accepted, protected and treated like gold. I've been absent from one Leather Bar in DC for approximately 11 years. As soon as I entered and those who remembered me went wild with joy seeing me return. Got a lot of looks by those strangers but, going into a Leather Bar that is like a family--they don't forget good people. And, they won't let good people get hurt by idiots. Had one guy I knew, give me a pat on the bum and he nearly got picked up and shoved out of the bar. I soothed things over with the Bar Captain and advised the guy what happened and how close he was to getting ejected. Now he has learned by seeing what 'community/family' is like within the Leathermen's circle. When I have men who just are anti-women on anything at any time, I don't pay them much mind. Once I am known to the majority of men, I am respected for being me, not just respected for what I do or have done. All I need to do is, look in the mirror and know I did the best I can/could honorably and maintaining my dignity in doing so. Respectfully submitted for consideration, Lady Hugs

DivaDuchess -> RE: Following in his footsteps. How do you deal? (9/19/2006 6:44:09 PM)
Try this one ... I'm female and ... BLONDE !!! We live in a predominantly Arabic community ... where the women are most often subservient to men. When working at the local bar and grill (Managing it) ... The waiters were male. Every single day for almost 2 months I put up with men yelling "hey you, girl, get me a drink'!! It took me a while but I finally lost my cool. It was a Saturday night and my first husband and our ... hmmm ... slave. That 'hey girl' comment came forth again ... I filled three pitchers full of ... molasses beer (for those that don't know what it is, it's a thick, Irish, dark beer, with the consistancy of loose glue), then walked calmly back to the table and pour it all over them. I then told them all that if they wait right there, I had a paddle (my play paddle) and some rope ... I turned to Our slave and nodded the slave then rose and came forward to clean the mess ... HE did a wonderful job. I never had another problem with anyone else. I hung my paddle on the wall above the bar as a reminder.

BlkTallFullfig -> RE: Following in his footsteps. How do you deal? (9/20/2006 12:06:56 AM)
quote: How do you deal ladies? and if any men read this post have you been the target of another male and treated with the same disrespect for some reason? ~Lashra When I encounter the type of behavior you describe, I do one of 3 things: a)do it if the request is simple enough and I don't feel like being contrary; b)laugh in his face at the obsurdity of him treating me that way, or c)ask him is something wrong with your hands/feet? Most men who hang around me know better than to ask me to do for them... Mostly they offer to bring it. M

Lashra -> RE: Following in his footsteps. How do you deal? (9/20/2006 5:28:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PrimitiveLogic Having been in health care and a nurse for over 30 years I have been part of a family of quite potent women all these years. The challenge always being; be my own self completely in the midst of powerful women. Respect is the key. I have had the pleasure of learning cooperative success through potency by their example. When people say that nurses take orders well....lets say that there are truly two sides to every story. The other adage is 'nurses eat their own'...weak of spirit need not apply. Lashra has it stated exquisitely from the beginning. We are and should be a complement to one another...not adversaries. PrimitiveLogic thank you so much for responding and you are quite right nursing is one of the most difficult professions out there. I wanted to ask you a question, though I maybe hijacking my own thread lol. As a male nurse do you find that other males react negatively to your chosen profession because it is viewed as a "womans job" by some? I ask this because I have a friend who's husband was a nurse for many years and he recently quit his job because he couldn't take the pressure anymore from other men. Its sad really, I felt he was a damn good professional and it is a loss to the patients who need quality healthcare. Thanks, ~Lashra

TNstepsout -> RE: Following in his footsteps. How do you deal? (9/20/2006 5:37:55 AM)
You know, this is an interesting thread. Seems there are so many different ways to get ones point across. Some rather subtle and some ummmm......not so subtle.

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