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Another Iraq blunder - 9/19/2006 2:07:58 PM   
Kedicat


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Status: offline 		An article about the sort of folks they sent over to " straighten out " Iraq after the battle.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article15025.htm

Seems the most important qualification was party line. To impose a very far right experiment on a broken country.
After other large wars, the defeated were treated more like emergency patients. Do the most important things first, leave the politics and such for a bit later. The Iraqi people got little more than a bandaid from the ones who inflicted the wounds.

I doubt that there has been a change in this basic policy. Ideaology is likely still trumping the obvious reality. Instant conservativism, democracy and capitalism doesn't happen any easier or faster than trying to force any ideaology. Especially when tried by amatueurs.
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RE: Another Iraq blunder - 9/19/2006 3:05:58 PM   
KenDckey


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Status: offline 		there have been a huge number of blunders.   and some successes as well.   I disagree with party affiliation was the key factor so much as campaign contributions.   Those have affected m ore "aid" projects than anything throughout our history

(in reply to Kedicat)
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RE: Another Iraq blunder - 9/19/2006 3:07:12 PM   
meatcleaver


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Status: offline 		I'd be grateful to know what successes there have been in Iraq.

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RE: Another Iraq blunder - 9/19/2006 3:38:24 PM   
KenDckey


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Status: offline 		Well I believe that there are segments that have more liberties (i.e. the kurds and women) than they had before.  I believe that the overall security of the area is stronger and that infighting has lessened (between arab states).   Yes   I recognize Iran is a problem to the area but they have been that way since what 1980 or 81 something like that.  I think that overall therre are arab states that are backing off (overall) their aid to extreme organizations for fear we will walk in on them too (whether that is a good plan is a different area of discussion but I believe it to be a reality).  I believe that the overall population of Iraq agrees with what was done. and deplores what is being done to them now with the internal attacks against their civilian population.  I believe that the majority of the problems there are internal and once the forces of Iraq are adequately trained, paid and equipped that they will be able to deal with those.  I believe the terror prisons of Saddam have fallen and those that do it now will be appropriately tried and punished.

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RE: Another Iraq blunder - 9/19/2006 3:57:19 PM   
EnglishDomNW


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

I believe that the overall population of Iraq agrees with what was done.


Is there evidence of this anywhere?  It would just be reassuring to know they get consulted occasionally as to what happens in their own nation.

_____________________________


"I am woman hear me roar!"

(Yes and I am Man, keep the noise down, bitch.)
.

(in reply to KenDckey)
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RE: Another Iraq blunder - 9/19/2006 4:04:40 PM   
servantforuse


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Status: offline 		Successes in Irac??? How about 50 million people living in a free Country,with an elected leader, instead of being ruled by a brutal dictator and his 2 perverted sons. Nothing happens over night. We have troops in Germany since WW II.

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RE: Another Iraq blunder - 9/19/2006 4:07:21 PM   
KenDckey


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quote:

ORIGINAL: EnglishDomNW

quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

I believe that the overall population of Iraq agrees with what was done.


Is there evidence of this anywhere?  It would just be reassuring to know they get consulted occasionally as to what happens in their own nation.


There has been some media stuff.  But I don't think the media really reports on it much because death and destruction sells and good things dont

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RE: Another Iraq blunder - 9/19/2006 4:08:43 PM   
KenDckey


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quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

Successes in Irac??? How about 50 million people living in a free Country,with an elected leader, instead of being ruled by a brutal dictator and his 2 perverted sons. Nothing happens over night. We have troops in Germany since WW II.


Don't forget, in Germany following WWII the SS and their cronies continued to fight for years.

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RE: Another Iraq blunder - 9/19/2006 4:11:03 PM   
KenDckey


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quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

Successes in Irac??? How about 50 million people living in a free Country,with an elected leader, instead of being ruled by a brutal dictator and his 2 perverted sons. Nothing happens over night. We have troops in Germany since WW II.


Something else to remember.   We got rid of the occupation army in Germany in the 90s.  Thus making it a truely free country.  Till then it was an occupied state.  I still have my occupation medal with Germany Device that I earned in 1973-1977

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RE: Another Iraq blunder - 9/19/2006 5:36:21 PM   
PlayfulOne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey
I believe that the overall security of the area is stronger and that infighting has lessened (between arab states).   Yes   I recognize Iran is a problem to the area but they have been that way since what 1980 or 81 something like that.  I think that overall therre are arab states that are backing off (overall) their aid to extreme organizations for fear we will walk in on them too


Really, your not that naive are you?  No one in the middle east right now has any "fear" of us walking in on them.  Iran is having a jolly time watching us in this mess in Iraq which is why they are feeling their oats.   Point, Iran had a grand time using Hamas to push Israel's buttons and drag them much deeper into anything than Israel wanted to get.  the whole time watching to see what we would do,  which was in effect, nothing but bluster.  Why,  because we committed to this folly in Iraq we leave the two with nuclear weapons and budding capabilities (Iran and North Korea) free to play.

Don't think for a moment we aren't going to be paying for this blunder for years to come. 

K

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RE: Another Iraq blunder - 9/20/2006 12:25:23 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

Don't forget, in Germany following WWII the SS and their cronies continued to fight for years.


I don't think so. They scappered as quick as they could to south America and those left behind ingratiated themselves to the occupied forces and were quickly part of the security forces in Germany. A mistake made in Iraq was to disband everyone in uniform.

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RE: Another Iraq blunder - 9/20/2006 12:33:14 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

Successes in Irac??? How about 50 million people living in a free Country,with an elected leader, instead of being ruled by a brutal dictator and his 2 perverted sons. Nothing happens over night. We have troops in Germany since WW II.


Well that is 29 million more than lived under Saddam. Most Iraqis appear to say life is infinitely worse now than under Saddam. The fact you can vote for a government is little comfort when you are without water and electricity for many parts of the day and you are in daily fear of being kidnapped and murdered or of being blown up in a terrorist bomb.

As for the US having troops in Germany still. They are not there for Germany's sake but for the US's forward defence. US forces in Europe creates a lot of division.

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RE: Another Iraq blunder - 9/20/2006 12:37:32 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

Something else to remember.   We got rid of the occupation army in Germany in the 90s.  Thus making it a truely free country.  Till then it was an occupied state.  I still have my occupation medal with Germany Device that I earned in 1973-1977


US forces were in Germany in the 70s not because they were needed as an occupying force but as defensive forward positions against the USSR. The German population was divided on foreign troops being stationed there because they knew it wasn't for them but the fact the next world war was to be fought on their soil.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 9/20/2006 12:39:35 AM >

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RE: Another Iraq blunder - 9/20/2006 3:49:12 AM   
KenDckey


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

Something else to remember.   We got rid of the occupation army in Germany in the 90s.  Thus making it a truely free country.  Till then it was an occupied state.  I still have my occupation medal with Germany Device that I earned in 1973-1977


US forces were in Germany in the 70s not because they were needed as an occupying force but as defensive forward positions against the USSR. The German population was divided on foreign troops being stationed there because they knew it wasn't for them but the fact the next world war was to be fought on their soil.


Uhhhhhhh   I hate to differ but I was in Germany under the Quadri-partite (better know as the Potsdam) Agreement.  And I was in occupied Germany.   Now I will admit that occupied Germany wasn't very large but Berlin was occupied and we didn't recognize NATO or WARSAW pacts.

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RE: Another Iraq blunder - 9/20/2006 4:02:01 AM   
seeksfemslave


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Status: offline 		Getting back to Eyeraq, though it does appear that what was expected to occur after  the invasion was wildly incorrect, and I think it possible to at least suspect the G Bush administration's real motives, surely the problem at the moment is that different sections of Eyeraqis hate one anothers guts, ONE reason I suppose why Saddam was such a B'std.

With regard to the OP what I want to know is when some Brit brickies ( bricklayers) are going to get some work over there ?

US/Brit troops are still in Germany , aren't they. I did my bit in 1957/58.The Commies wouldn't make amove while I was there !!!!

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 9/20/2006 4:06:51 AM >

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RE: Another Iraq blunder - 9/20/2006 4:24:44 AM   
KenDckey


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Status: offline 		I don't know when the brickies are going.   but I do agree that it is a factional fight between religious zealots who are basically saying  My intrepretation of religion is right and you will change or we will kill you.  Religious diversity is and has always been a problem there.   It was in Europe in the past but they grew up and learned better.  Problem is it took forever seemingly.

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RE: Another Iraq blunder - 9/20/2006 4:39:15 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

Uhhhhhhh   I hate to differ but I was in Germany under the Quadri-partite (better know as the Potsdam) Agreement.  And I was in occupied Germany.   Now I will admit that occupied Germany wasn't very large but Berlin was occupied and we didn't recognize NATO or WARSAW pacts.


Occupation wasn't necessary in the 70s to keep Germany from slipping back into a pre-war state and I'm not bothered what the post war settlement was. There was no German insurgency, it was a functioning democracy that was far more liberal than all the occupying powers and the greatest danger to occupying soldiers was too much beer and STDs from the local prostitutes. The reason the occupation remained was because of the perceived Russian threat and the lack of confidence by the German government to tell the occuying forces to pack their bags and fuck off.

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RE: Another Iraq blunder - 9/20/2006 4:58:21 AM   
KenDckey


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

Uhhhhhhh   I hate to differ but I was in Germany under the Quadri-partite (better know as the Potsdam) Agreement.  And I was in occupied Germany.   Now I will admit that occupied Germany wasn't very large but Berlin was occupied and we didn't recognize NATO or WARSAW pacts.


Occupation wasn't necessary in the 70s to keep Germany from slipping back into a pre-war state and I'm not bothered what the post war settlement was. There was no German insurgency, it was a functioning democracy that was far more liberal than all the occupying powers and the greatest danger to occupying soldiers was too much beer and STDs from the local prostitutes. The reason the occupation remained was because of the perceived Russian threat and the lack of confidence by the German government to tell the occuying forces to pack their bags and fuck off.


Well that isn't exactly true but close.   I lost some good friends to attacks in Berlin and my apartment recieved 3 rounds from across the wall.  My family was in there at the time.  As to the political motivations, I don't really care.  The point that I was making is that you were WRONG about their being occupying forces.

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RE: Another Iraq blunder - 9/20/2006 5:52:41 AM   
meatcleaver


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Status: offline 		True but the real point is, it wasn't necessary for occupying soldiers to be there. I lived in Berlin for a time in the 70s and my brother did a tour of duty there at the time and we used to go out on the town, a great place for hedonism, drink and women were the greatest danger to man and beast.

*sigh* it just isn't the same anymore.

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RE: Another Iraq blunder - 9/20/2006 6:48:41 AM   
KenDckey


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Status: offline 		rofl   it was definately a party town.   And there were 2 reasons that it was still occupied I believe was that

1 - The reunification of Germany had not occured (even though the US, FR, and UK all agreed it should have happened)

2 - To tie up the 9 divisions surrounding it.

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