Iraq: For Whatever This May Be Worth

Iraq: For Whatever This May Be Worth (Full Version)

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caitlyn -> Iraq: For Whatever This May Be Worth (9/20/2006 7:01:19 AM)
I'm in a very small group on this board - one that has not formulated a final decision on our participation (or occupation if that term works better for you), in Iraq. I would like a share a short story with you. I doubt this will change anyone's position, but do think it might explain the position of those wanting to wait and see. I live with foster parents, and my foster mother has a brother that is a Lieutenant Colonel in the United Stated army. He is some sort of tank commander. He is far from a neocon drum beater, or flag waver. Their family is very active in the Democratic party, and he proudly says he is the only officer in the entire army that voted for Senator Kerry. [;)] I find him an interesting, and fair thinking person ... we email as often as he has access. One of the point he has made to me many times, concerns the media coverage of events in Iraq. He doesn't approach this with an eye looking for bias, but continually makes reference to a point I can't get past. He says that literally every reporter he has interfaced with, from all nations, is out looking for a story to elevate their own career, and that this agenda has completely buried the truth of what is happening over there. He of course is not at liberty to discuss specifics, and won't answer any of my questions about specifics, but has mentioned several times that whenever something good happens, there is rarely a reporter to be seen, and if there is, they are really only there to disprove events that are actually happening. Another thing he mentions often, is that there is a large group of primarily European reporters that seem to have a cold, hard agenda of sewing discontent with American soldiers. I suppose that is their right, but does tend to remove the "reporter" label from their activities. In several emails, he has mentioned casting a critical eye on any reports coming from any media. It's very hard for me to justify these two positions. On one side, the war seems foolish, and yet my outlet on the ground seems to project a very different picture. If he were a man that was a right wing supporter, I might have a way of explaining it away ... but I know for a fact, that isn't the case. Off to class ... have a great day, and thanks for reading.

SirKenin -> RE: Iraq: For Whatever This May Be Worth (9/20/2006 7:17:12 AM)
Actually, I have been saying that in here for some time, but the nitwits that sit on the left will not listen because it does not follow their slanderous agenda. After all, if the truth was revealed it would be plain for all to see that they are full of shit and their Collar Me Bush bashing and conspiracy theory career would be over. This must be avoided at all costs. Their supposed, self-perceived reputation is at stake. Man, think of what life would be like here without full pages of Bush, FOX, conservative and Iraq bashing. lol. Skim the first few pages for yourself. So needless to say I believe your friend. There is a lot of work being done over there to schools, infrastructure, hospitals and utilities. The citizens of Iraq are benefitting greatly from the efforts of the United States. Not to mention their freedom from oppression at the hands of the Sunnis. The left wing media, and all those suckling on their teets, can go screw themselves. That includes CNN.

meatcleaver -> RE: Iraq: For Whatever This May Be Worth (9/20/2006 8:59:53 AM)
I can readily accept that reporters look for the more tasty stories. Dog bites man is no news, man bites dog is news. I can readily accept that reporters are looking for a story to advance their careers, I've never believed in this mystical idea of 'professional ethics' no matter what the profession, people are people and they tend to be ambitious for themselves. I can readily accept that European reporters are somewhat anti-American. All European countries were against the invasion of Iraq, even those whose government sent troops.I can readily accept that reporters paint a blacker picture of Iraq than it is. British generals say their sector in Iraq is a lot easier and has a lot less fighting than their sector in Afghanistan, which despite American reports saying Afghanistan has been tamed, is far from being tamed. However, it doesn't alter the fact that the invasion was based on a lie and it doesn't alter the daily statistics of the amount of people killed in the unrest that has been sown there by the invasion. I don't blame the troops, they have to go where they are told to go. The politicians are the ones to blame and I don't see why they shouldn't be held to account for the mess their idiotic policies have created.

peterK50 -> RE: Iraq: For Whatever This May Be Worth (9/20/2006 9:35:03 AM)
There is no need to view any situation through rose colored glasses. New school opens, good, 64 Iraqi's murdered, bad. No one is going to the new school if they can't walk down the street. Iraq will never be a democracy with ballons, buttons, & candidate signs in the front yard. Great Britain & Canada aren't those kinds of democracy's. The Mullahs will preach politics just as do right wing evangelical preachers here. radicals will be duly elected to the parliament who will distrust the US & their agenda. The Zeitgeist of the area is turmoil, & that gives opportunity to evey small, fringe operation to try & amass power. 11 Million people in NYC were NOT murdered today, that is not news. To not report those who were murdered is irresponsible. Attacks on GI's are up, that shows the region is not stable, secure, or ready for any meaningful reforms. The British left Palestine in the 1940's & it was just like modern day Iraq. Winston Chrchill returned to power after the debacle & the report on what went wrong should have served as a blueprint for the Bush administration. Create secure areas no matter how small. Allow people to migrate to secure areas to begin a normal life. People in those secure areas will not be sympathetic to outside agitators. Slowly expand those secure areas. That method has been ignored & we have what we have. Killing the messanger is not the answer. Changing the policy is.

Amaros -> RE: Iraq: For Whatever This May Be Worth (9/20/2006 9:45:16 AM)
Aha, so you've discovered that the profit principle has overtaken straight reporting in the news media - welcome to the world. Somewhere along the line, somebody made a concerted effort to redefine bald greed as sanctified virtue - how do you suppose that happened? Could reprecussions to this not be forseen? What conservatives invariably fail to discern, is that when you set a precedent, it's a precedent for everybody, not just when it's convenient for you. See spin called truth, outright lying called spin, rhetoric called logic, politicking in lieu of leadership, etc., etc. Not all of those have caught up to you yet, but they will.

Amaros -> RE: Iraq: For Whatever This May Be Worth (9/20/2006 9:52:03 AM)
For the record, what's done is done, for whatever reasons, and can't be undone: the question is what to do next - and the very good reason for dredging up the mistakes of the past is understand why and how they were made and were mistakes, so as to avoid repeating them, as opposed to pretending they weren't mistakes and hoping nobody notices, or calling them "traitors" when they do. It's called "adulthood", and "rationality", as opposed to "opportunism". Precedents have been set, of course, so naturally, it's hardly gonna be neat and clean, and could well just get worse in ways we have yet to imagine.

juliaoceania -> RE: Iraq: For Whatever This May Be Worth (9/20/2006 10:34:24 AM)
My opinion about the Iraq war has nothing to do with whether or not we are doing good things Caitlyn, and regardless of the heresy evidence that you bring to the debate most generals that are retiring paint a different picture of mismanagement of this occupation. My opinion is built upon the lies that sent us into war in the first place. What happened to everyone that was trying to call attention to the cherrypicking the Bush Admin has done is appalling. Joe Wilson and Scott Ritter are just two examples of this. The fact remains that we went to Iraq supposedly because Saddam was a threat. He was not a threat and we were lied to... it does not matter a whit to me what troops think of the "good we are doing" because we are there under false pretenses and for oil. There are many unfree people in this world that live under worse oppression, and I do not see us invading those countries because we have no reason to.. they have no oil

Chaingang -> RE: Iraq: For Whatever This May Be Worth (9/20/2006 11:16:30 AM)
Maybe a soldier has to justify to himself what he is doing there with a series of small lies that become a kind of truth to him - otherwise he has to admit to himself that he is in Iraq to commit atrocities and theft on behalf of his masters. The real difference between the Rethugs and the Demopukes is how much they are willing to steal, not whether they will.

KenDckey -> RE: Iraq: For Whatever This May Be Worth (9/20/2006 11:28:53 AM)
500 soldiers frm the 1st underwater messkit repair company build school doesn't sell as many papers as 2 soldiers killed during technical attack. The media, contrary to some's belief, operate on a profit mode. If they followed the "party line" of the administration then we would only hear the good things. Sometimes to hear some of the good thngs, I watch the Pentagon Channel http://www.pentagonchannel.mil/ which is on the web. I also recognize this as being military propoganda and tainted as much as the regular media. I have talked to returning soldiers and there are some that wished they were never sent and others who would gladly return becasue they believe in the mission. I also believe that the boots on the ground have a very different view of what is going on than what we see in the profit motivated media.

KenDckey -> RE: Iraq: For Whatever This May Be Worth (9/20/2006 11:32:55 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Chaingang Maybe a soldier has to justify to himself what he is doing there with a series of small lies that become a kind of truth to him - otherwise he has to admit to himself that he is in Iraq to commit atrocities and theft on behalf of his masters. The real difference between the Rethugs and the Demopukes is how much they are willing to steal, not whether they will. Soldiers have both a right and a responsibility to not commit atrocities and theft. It is a basic foundation of military law. As to telling small lies, troops are a cross ssection of american society operating in an environment of Duty Honor Country. No where in the credo does it say we should compromise that with lies. It is so instilled that telling a lie in any of the academies is grounds for dismissal. Not sure where your belief comes from.

SirKenin -> RE: Iraq: For Whatever This May Be Worth (9/20/2006 11:33:43 AM)
And I also believe that the boots on the ground have a very different view than certain couch potatos on a message board as well. [;)] Maybe we should send them over to Iraq and see if they sing a different tune.

KenDckey -> RE: Iraq: For Whatever This May Be Worth (9/20/2006 11:37:44 AM)
LOL I would go I enjoyed being in the arab society when I was there in the 60's

Chaingang -> RE: Iraq: For Whatever This May Be Worth (9/20/2006 11:44:43 AM)
KenDckey: You do realize my comment went flying right over your head, yes? SirKenin: More drivel as usual. When you start submitting your posts to these forums from Iraq then I think it might be fair to make such a comment. Otherwise it really is "pot kettle black' - or didn't you realize that? You two should mind-meld and try to come up with one solid mass of gray matter between you. That would be an improvement.

KenDckey -> RE: Iraq: For Whatever This May Be Worth (9/20/2006 11:50:36 AM)
I was only commenting to the first paragraph not the second I agree with it.

meatcleaver -> RE: Iraq: For Whatever This May Be Worth (9/20/2006 12:05:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SirKenin And I also believe that the boots on the ground have a very different view than certain couch potatos on a message board as well. [;)] Maybe we should send them over to Iraq and see if they sing a different tune. No one likes to think they are risking their life for a totally fucked up policy based on lies so no doubt soldiers will convince themselves that what they are doing is the right thing.

philosophy -> RE: Iraq: For Whatever This May Be Worth (9/20/2006 12:06:13 PM)
"Another thing he mentions often, is that there is a large group of primarily European reporters that seem to have a cold, hard agenda of sewing discontent with American soldiers. I suppose that is their right, but does tend to remove the "reporter" label from their activities." ...there may be a grain of truth in this, but perhaps not the one hinted at. Here is Europe the whole political reasons for war in Iraq are questionable at best. Investigative reporters asking American soldiers what they think of being in Iraq could easily be interpreted as sewing discontent if there is no consensus on why they're there. Part of reporting is to ask the hard questions that need asking.

SirKenin -> RE: Iraq: For Whatever This May Be Worth (9/20/2006 12:32:31 PM)
If I could go, I would. But I am not one of the naysayers on this board that are throwing bullshit conspiracy theories around, conjecture and slander from the comfort of their armchair, as if they could do any better. I quite frankly support the war in Iraq with one exception. America should have been told that oil was a mitigating factor. They were not. I think that people would have a much different outlook than they do now.

juliaoceania -> RE: Iraq: For Whatever This May Be Worth (9/20/2006 12:35:44 PM)
My outlook would not have changed, I think it is immoral to invade people for their natural resources and there is a such thing as karma out there, and the worm will turn... and it really pisses me off that my son is going to be left with a nation that has the worm turning on it.

happypervert -> RE: Iraq: For Whatever This May Be Worth (9/20/2006 1:04:14 PM)
quote: but has mentioned several times that whenever something good happens, there is rarely a reporter to be seen, Tune in ANY newscast in the US and the emphasis will be on crime and political scandal with the occasional warm and fuzzy story added in on a slow news day. So the coverage from Iraq is no different except for the sensational scale -- mass graves and chopping off heads is more dramatic than the typical multiple homicide in a big city here.

NastyDaddy -> RE: Iraq: For Whatever This May Be Worth (9/20/2006 1:21:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania My outlook would not have changed, I think it is immoral to invade people for their natural resources and there is a such thing as karma out there, and the worm will turn... and it really pisses me off that my son is going to be left with a nation that has the worm turning on it. Sort of like the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait in what is now referred to as Gulf War I? Did you forget about GWI I wonder? Did you forget about The Iraqi dictator's murdering thousands of innocent Kurdish women and children with poison gas? Did you forget about the use of banned chemical weapons against defenseless people in your own special form of genocide? What of this man who had attacked his Islamic Iranian neighbors and used banned weaponry there too in his conquest... the man who had his own version of the Quran written in his own blood... this very special man minding his own very special business? I can see how Saddam Hussein was not a threat in your eyes, but in the same token I do realize what a threat he was, and I helped kick his ass and run him back home in GWI. A mistake of GWI was to leave him in peace after running him back home from Kuwait. As to whether or not the reasons you were told to justify the military action were just in your mind, I would ask that had you reviewed additional classified information would you have been any happier in the matter? Actually I doubt it because recreational message board posting and political bashing seems to be much more fun than knowing underlying factors of turmoil. Did oil have anything to do with it? Hell yes, as it was also a factor in GWI when the sweet Hussein man invaded Kuwait and decided he would in fact decide what is best for other sovereign nations, and their allies. Yep, sweet Mr Hussein is a real pussycat... and he has a real fondness for Reeses peanut butter cups too. His son's had a fondess for kidnapping brides at their weddings too, but they were real sweet harmless boys too... (edited for typos)

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