Eliminate Payroll Taxes!!! (Full Version)

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Chaingang -> Eliminate Payroll Taxes!!! (9/21/2006 3:09:03 AM)

"Gore Calls For Immediate Freeze on C02 Emissions, Elimination of Payroll Taxes"
http://thinkprogress.org/2006/09/18/gore-speech/

Full Speech:
http://thinkprogress.org/gore-nyu

For the last fourteen years, I have advocated the elimination of all payroll taxes — including those for social security and unemployment compensation — and the replacement of that revenue in the form of pollution taxes — principally on CO2. The overall level of taxation would remain exactly the same. It would be, in other words, a revenue neutral tax swap. But, instead of discouraging businesses from hiring more employees, it would discourage business from producing more pollution.

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How much "bad air" will this thread generate?



LadyEllen -> RE: Eliminate Payroll Taxes!!! (9/21/2006 3:15:15 AM)

Interesting - the LibDems in the UK are just developing the same sort of policy now. Though we will always have payroll tax (average 20% at source), they want to reduce it and swap the revenue stream to tax for pollution. Good idea in theory, though of course even if I have more money in my pocket, I wont be able to afford to fill up the car any more because of the taxes....
E



Kedicat -> RE: Eliminate Payroll Taxes!!! (9/21/2006 3:17:07 AM)

The increase in anti pollution regulations a few decades ago had business crying the blues...
The result however was often more efficiency in their production. And a boom in American knowhow and invention to provide the means for cleaner more efficient production.
Pollution is waste. Some waste is relatively harmeless but usually economically bad. Often producing less pollution means you are doing things more efficiently.

There was a time when a little upfront investment for a longterm financial and general performance gain was considered good business. Now the return has to be the next market minute. Stocks are of more value than anything these days.
Few hold stocks longterm anymore.

Instant gratification is the name of the game.



LadyEllen -> RE: Eliminate Payroll Taxes!!! (9/21/2006 3:24:24 AM)

Kedikat - excellent point. it runs through our whole western society IMO and the lack of long term thinking is going to produce more than one disaster in the future
E



Kedicat -> RE: Eliminate Payroll Taxes!!! (9/21/2006 3:33:59 AM)

There is a problem with pollution tax.
A payroll tax is based on hard numbers. Right there on the paystub.
A pollution tax has to deal with the definitions of pollution, the ones who record the pollution.

Lately the definitions of pollution have become political rather than scientific. The estimation of pollution amounts has actually been left to the polluters to track and submit!!! It's true!!!

Then there are all the other political legislative allowances for certain industries etc...etc....that hardly anybody but congressmen are aware of.

It's like all the tax things. The bigger richer you are, the more loopholes there are. The payroll tax is regressive as hell. For it is the ones without enough money to hide from the taxman that pay the fullest share. Often the richest are beggars when the taxman calls. A great line from the song Fortunate Son ? Anyone care to beat me to looking it up?



Kedicat -> RE: Eliminate Payroll Taxes!!! (9/21/2006 3:37:37 AM)

Fortunate Son by Creedance Clearwater Revival.

Some folks are born made to wave the flag,
Ooh, theyre red, white and blue.
And when the band plays hail to the chief,
Ooh, they point the cannon at you, lord,

It aint me, it aint me, I aint no senators son, son.
It aint me, it aint me; I aint no fortunate one, no,

Yeah!
Some folks are born silver spoon in hand,
Lord, dont they help themselves, oh.
But when the taxman comes to the door,
Lord, the house looks like a rummage sale, yes,

It aint me, it aint me, I aint no millionaires son, no.
It aint me, it aint me; I aint no fortunate one, no.

Some folks inherit star spangled eyes,
Ooh, they send you down to war, lord,
And when you ask them, how much should we give?
Ooh, they only answer more! more! more! yoh,

It aint me, it aint me, I aint no military son, son.
It aint me, it aint me; I aint no fortunate one, one.

It aint me, it aint me, I aint no fortunate one, no no no,
It aint me, it aint me, I aint no fortunate son, no no no,

What's that spell!!!!?????



meatcleaver -> RE: Eliminate Payroll Taxes!!! (9/21/2006 3:39:59 AM)

The problem with indirect pollution taxes is that it can have an unfair impact on the poor, I'm thinking of such things as electricity which everyone needs, though having higher indirect taxes on luxury goods like gas SUVs and air travel et all does make sense. I'm halfway to being convinced if the poor's essential needs can be protected  



Kedicat -> RE: Eliminate Payroll Taxes!!! (9/21/2006 3:45:56 AM)

I agree.

But oddly enough, air travel is quite efficient. And has gotten better in the last decade or so.
I read a very good article on it, with excellent data.
It sucks for cargo in many cases, rail being much better. But for moving people compared to a person in a car, air travel in a modern jet is very efficient. Still rail travel is the best in all cases. Electric rail being sweet as hell.

Sorry but I can't recall the article linkage. It was an offshoot of an offshoot of a search for something. Best thing about the web, the links and links. So many opportunities to learn things you didn't know you wanted to know.



Kedicat -> RE: Eliminate Payroll Taxes!!! (9/21/2006 3:57:56 AM)

A thought on mass transit.

Aside from all it's economical and energy advantages. I like mass transit. I like being with the people going to my place. Sharing the ride. Sure there are smelly and creepy ones, but I like being with them.
I used to be able to take an electric train to work. A rare thing in N. America. I liked it. A nice walk to the station. Some people watching, some certain people really watching :) On the way, often the train was very crowded. Downside was loads of freshly applied cologne and perfume. Upside, actual personal contact with my fellow humans. Eye contact, eye to.......contact. Physical contact without any undertones than we are all in this together. Lots of smiles.
Being a Canadian, it was also nice that the train was warm and I didn't have to scrape the ice off it. I drove a city bus for ten years. Interesting. Fulfilling though so mundane 99% of the time.

Good heavily used mass transit is a hallmark of a good city. It is a part of peoples life there. It is human and civilized. It is a way to be together as people in an increasingly isolated way of life. The best thing about oil going the way of the dinosaurs, is that we will get closer as human beings in society.

Sadly I live in a mecca of oil. Mass transit is communism here. That electric train does not go anywhere near my job in the oil industry. A bus would take hours to get 15 kilometers. I drive to work now. But if it ain't freezing I ride the MC. 50 MPG and fun too.



LadyEllen -> RE: Eliminate Payroll Taxes!!! (9/21/2006 4:31:26 AM)

There is far too much tax revenue to be had from personal vehicle use, for any coordinated system of public transport to be a government objective. In the UK, this is GBP 30 billion a year I (under)estimated in another thread I can no longer find!
E



Chaingang -> RE: Eliminate Payroll Taxes!!! (9/21/2006 4:38:19 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen
Though we will always have payroll tax (average 20% at source)...


I don't know about the U.K. and Canadian income tax systems so I can't offer an opinion there, but I can say that the income tax in the U.S. is:

    * Unconstitutional (electorate fails to distinguish between direct and indirect taxes)
    * Incoherent, so complex that no one actually understands it (esp. IRS agents that enforce it)
    * Laced with special interest tax breaks
    * Enormously intrusive of one's privacy

What could replace it? How about a federal sales tax on everything but food and absolute necessities? Benefits would include:

    * Perfectly constitutional as an indirect tax
    * No tax records
    * No tax returns
    * No loopholes
    * No invasion of privacy

Since it would be sure to work to serve whatever revenue collection needs might arise the fact that such is not implemented over our current income tax is a clear indication that the U.S. government prefers to maintain many of the problems the current tax system provides. I believe that they want a set of laws that everyone is almost surely in violation of so they can hang it over one's head (Nixon famously used audits as a tool of coercion); they want it to serve special interests, and they want to collect information that should actually be private instead.



Kedicat -> RE: Eliminate Payroll Taxes!!! (9/21/2006 4:44:54 AM)

Yes. It is one of those money losers like health care.
Short sightedness.
I like the way the middle or lower class folks that are capitalist, right winger, individualists, so quickly turn left when the rug is pulled out from under them by the higherups.
It's easy to be a capitalist when in the black. But even the rich and big business come to the government for handouts regularly.

When the price of gas finally makes the drive from the suburbs to your job a losing proposition, the cry for subsidized mass transit will deafen. The big chipboard mansions will need subsidized heating costs. But all the taxes will have been cut, the deficits not even being paid, and the average Joe will be chilly and face a long walk.



KenDckey -> RE: Eliminate Payroll Taxes!!! (9/21/2006 4:52:44 AM)

I disagree with going solely based upon a polution tax.   There are just to many businesses that wouldn't be affected.   Most of them are either retail or service oriented.  Also limiting it to CO2 is a huge mistake, to many other gasses out there that polute.

We do have some polution taxes in existance now.   Charges for recycling in your solid waste bill, charges for the processing raw sewage.   We also fine for things like dumping sugar into sewage.  Yeah I know not many of us look at sugar as being a pollutant but it really affects the process of sewage.  It overffeeds the little bugs used in the process, makes them replicate to fast and then when the sugar goes away they die and become ineffective.  It is a very sensitive process,   and to make matters worse it affects the amount of methane produced (another pollutant).

I would recommend you visit a wastewater treatment plant (that is the true name for sewer plants).  I worked at a 72 MGD (Million Gallons per Day) plant.  We recycled everythhing but about one 5 yard dump truck per day.   The water was cleaned and used for irrigation.  The solids were digested to produce methane which produced electricity and then the solids were composted with the green waste from the garbage to make potting soil.  We produced an average of 18 truck loads (18-wheelers) of 15 human waste solids per day.

In solid waste, we produce tons of pollutants.  That old PVC fitting that we had to replace, the last 2 oz in a 5 gallon bucket of paint, the cooking oils and fats, diapers, all kinds of stuff that come out of our homes.  A Polution tax would have to apply to the individual as well.   and it is almost incalculable.  How much styrine, how many soda cans, and on and on does an individual become responsible for?   you can't pass the polution tax to tthe employer becasue he will just raise the prices of his goods and services to the public and further limit the ability of the poor to purchase.

There are also pollutants produced in the cleaning of our drinking water.  This is caused by the filtration system.

How many of us have pulled up a broken tile from the floor and potentially relased asbestos into our lungs?

How many of us have thrown an old TV, computer, sterio, radio, etc. in the garbage and are responsible for releasing lead into the aquafur?

How many of have poured sour milk down the drain?   Did you know that is a pollutant?  Probably not.

Where does it end?  Where does the responsibility end?  Eliminating payroll taxes isn't the answer.  Creating a pollution tax isn't the answer.  Do I know what the answer is?   NO  let me say that again  NO

Are businesses fined for their polution?  yes when caught.  Is there a fool proof system of catching them?   NO  



Kedicat -> RE: Eliminate Payroll Taxes!!! (9/21/2006 4:56:17 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chaingang

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen
Though we will always have payroll tax (average 20% at source)...


I don't know about the U.K. and Canadian income tax systems so I can't offer an opinion there, but I can say that the income tax in the U.S. is:

    * Unconstitutional (electorate fails to distinguish between direct and indirect taxes)
    * Incoherent, so complex that no one actually understands it (esp. IRS agents that enforce it)
    * Laced with special interest tax breaks
    * Enormously intrusive of one's privacy

What could replace it? How about a federal sales tax on everything but food and absolute necessities? Benefits would include:

    * Perfectly constitutional as an indirect tax
    * No tax records
    * No tax returns
    * No loopholes
    * No invasion of privacy

Since it would be sure to work to serve whatever revenue collection needs might arise the fact that such is not implemented over our current income tax is a clear indication that the U.S. government prefers to maintain many of the problems the current tax system provides. I believe that they want a set of laws that everyone is almost surely in violation of so they can hang it over one's head (Nixon famously used audits as a tool of coercion); they want it to serve special interests, and they want to collect information that should actually be private instead.



For a basic wage earner the Canadian tax system is pretty simple. The US one is more complex for even the average person. ( I have US relatives ).
Comparisons are often made between the US and CDN tax rates. If you leave out the private healthcare and some other less comprehensive things in the US from costs to the citizen, the CDN tax rate is still comperable but in some brackets a bit higher. Add in the savings and security that our tax funded health and other social programs provide and convert that to direct personal cost, and we are better off in almost all cases. Even business benifits from our tax funded health system.

A fed sales tax would have to be immune from business loopholes. And what a battle that would be!! Business usually gets a tax write off on every purchase as a cost of doing business.

I don't get to write off my cost of doing business. I sell my skills to my employer. I don't get to write off my daily costs to transport my product to market or other odd things that business considers an expense and writeoff.

We have a goods and services tax. But business writes off that tax in many cases. I never get to do that.



UtopianRanger -> RE: Eliminate Payroll Taxes!!! (9/21/2006 5:01:17 AM)

quote:

There is a problem with pollution tax.
A payroll tax is based on hard numbers. Right there on the paystub.
A pollution tax has to deal with the definitions of pollution, the ones who record the pollution.


The collection of revenue through payroll-withholding / income tax is only but one part of the benefit for the MASTERS. The other part is the tool of fear, intimidation and control that the income tax system brings to the table. I'm sorry....but part of the game is to control the individual, and I hardly see a pollution tax being manipulated in way that has a similar effect -  HAR!!! [;)]



JMHO


 - R

 



KenDckey -> RE: Eliminate Payroll Taxes!!! (9/21/2006 5:52:17 AM)

I am infavor of a flat tax as opposed to the income tax system of the US.   for goods and services I would impose an ad valorum tax this would then make the goods and services negotiable.  You pay exactly what you bargin for.  the seller would then pay according to exactly what he sells.   No deductions for anyone.



LadyEllen -> RE: Eliminate Payroll Taxes!!! (9/21/2006 6:42:24 AM)

Its funny to sit here reading advocacy for sales tax in favour of payroll tax. I would be careful if I were you - we have both in the UK - plus some other wonderful taxes that your glorious leaders would go ape-poopy over if they could get away with them!

Payroll tax - deducted at source. Lowest band 10%, highest 40%, average 20%
National Insurance (another tax basically) - employee flat rate 9%, employer flat rate 11%
Value Added Tax (sales tax) - 17.5% flat rate on all but food and a few other selected items
Council Tax (local government tax)- variable according to property size, not income. Very unfair, varies from GBP 100-00 per month to GBP 500-00 per month - typically 5% of income after payroll and national insurance taxes (near 10% of gross)
Fuel duty - approximately GBP 3-50 per gallon of petrol/diesel
Cigarettes - approximately GBP 3-00 per pack of 20
Alcohol - unsure but I expect about GBP 1-50 per pint of beer or GBP 7-00 per bottle of spirits
Insurance premium tax - about 2%
Household energy tax - about 2% (plus VAT of course)
Capital gains tax, death duties, inheritance tax, tax on savings and investments (even for children) etc etc etc, and lets not get into car tax etc to pay for the public roads, and to which they want to add usage charges now!

So, if I earn GBP 30,000-00 per annum, the tax I pay on that is
20% income tax GBP 6000-00
9% national insurance GBP 2700-00  (plus the company pays another GBP 3300-00
10% council tax GBP 3000-00
leaving me with GBP 18,300-00, but of that (apart from food) I am going to pay another 17.5% in VAT on things I buy = GBP 3200-00, HALVING THE VALUE OF MY INCOME from when I started.

Be careful what you wish for!
E



juliaoceania -> RE: Eliminate Payroll Taxes!!! (9/21/2006 6:45:06 AM)

Im for removing taxes on cigarettes (well a lot of them). I think it is unfair to tax someone for a legal activity because we do not like that activity. Many smokers are economically disadvantaged, and it has not really reduced smoking among teens, which is up or down depending on the decade and not the tax




Archer -> RE: Eliminate Payroll Taxes!!! (9/21/2006 6:45:24 AM)

LOL poltion tax gets a big thumbs up while the Fair Tax Bill gets a thumbs down, both would basicly tax consumption in some shape or form.
Lets see if I can punch a Liberal based hole into the idea.

co2 tax would effect the poor more than anyone else since their cars tend to be the ones that have the most pollution. Smoking beater cars would be taxed higher.

CO2 tax would  passed on from commercial users to their customers as an embedded tax, so those who spend the most would pay the most. So the same arguement people use against the flat tax ( proportionate taxation compared to income), can be used to make this appear to be a non progressive tax. 

LOL



KenDckey -> RE: Eliminate Payroll Taxes!!! (9/21/2006 6:46:38 AM)

we have most of those here.  spread around to various govt entities but none the less here.



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