SherriA
Posts: 544
Joined: 1/1/2004
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CTclay
You similtaneously insist that you're not intolerant, but you also say that political differences are moral differences ("it comes down to basically the same thing *for me*"). That sounds like you're saying people who disagree with your politics are immoral. I don't know any other way to read that. Do you really believe that?
That's not what I"m saying at all. What you're describing as "moral differences" are what I consider to be philosophical differences. People with different values than mine aren't immoral by default, they simply have different values than I do. People with a different life philosophy aren't evil or immoral necessaril; they simply come at things from a different place than I come from. I don't believe I've ever said that my way was better or right, only that it's better and right *for me*. That makes no judgement about anyone else's values, morals or philosophical beliefs.
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Do you really believe that people who think Problem A is more important than Problem B are always necessarily immoral because you think Problem B is more important? That's what most political differences are about, and different conclusions can be reached for all sorts of different reasons, many having nothing to do with morality.
Even people with the same exact moral outlook can be conservative, liberal, socialist, libertarian -- because they draw different conclusions about what works, what society is like, what people can be expected to do or not do, not because some of them are deficient in morals.
No, I don't believe that at all. Immoral was your word, not mine, and doesn't at all describe how I see things.
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If I think rich people should be forced to give up all of their money to the poor when they die, who are you to call me immoral? If I think that such a policy wouldn't really work in the real world, who are you to call me immoral? Can't I be foolish, stupid, misinformed, not-have-my-head-screwed-on-straight but still moral? Can I be foolish, stupid, etc. in politics but not in life in general? I know plenty of people like that, and so do you.
I didn't call anyone immoral. That was you putting words in my mouth - words that don't at all describe how I see things. You're totally off base.
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Immorality is one of those things that we shouldn't tolerate, so it sounds like you're justifying intolerance. I couldn't tolerate a Nazi or a terrorist because they have political beliefs that are immoral. I hope you're not saying that people who disagee with your politics are something like Nazis -- immoral because of their politics.
I've not said that ANYONE is immoral. You're the one that keeps saying that. I've said repeatedly that people with different politics than mine are coming from a different philosophical perspective and have different core values. That doesn't make them immoral; it makes them different.
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You say you're tolerant of family and people in your work place who have different politics, but you could never be intimate with someone with different politics. Why? Where does the discomfort enter into it? Are you uncomfortable with these other people? What would make you uncomfortable with a lover or with someone in some kind of BDSM relationship who had different politics?
I haven't said that I'm uncomfortable with people who have different politics. Again, you're misrepresenting what I've said. I said (quite clearly, I thought), that I choose to limit my intimate relationships to those who come at things from the same philosophical perspective as I do. I also said that I have friends, play partners, etc who have very different politics than mine. I have no issue at all playing with a conservative, or fucking a conservative, or having dinner with a conservative. How does that make me intolerant? I choose to limit the relationships in my innermost circle to those who share my outlook, because in my experience those are the people I am most compatible with in that regard.
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On a day-to-day level, you ARE intimate in many ways with people you work with, just as you are with family and friends in other ways -- especially the ways that are relevant to politics. You don't have sex with them or pillow talk, and you probably don't open up to them (in SOME ways) as much as you would with a lover. I don't get how differences in politics would screw that up.
Again, you're wrong. I do NOT have intimate relationships with co-workers and my family lives in a different country and I see them once every few years (last time was about 3.5 yrs ago). These people aren't privy to my innermost thoughts/feelings/wants/needs, nor do I feel they should be. These people aren't close to me in the way that a life partner should be, so the fact that they have significantly different core values and life philosophies isn't an issue. I've been quite clear about the fact that politics don't interfere in those relationships, so I don't know what it is that you "don't get".
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Essentially, you say that politics are "core values," and I say they're only core values when they involve significant differences in morality. If you call differences in politics differences in morality, then I think you're being intolerant. I'd say the definition of intolerance is being unable to be flexible about those things that you should be flexible about.
I'm talking about political philosophy, not what party someone belongs to, and mine is certainly a reflection of my core values. You can call that morality if you want. To me, it indicates where I come at things from, and it's important to me that a "life partner" or someone I have a significant intimate relationship share that perspective. That's not intolerance; that's making a choice based on my experiences.
I don't think we agree on the definition of intolerance, and that's where things are short circuiting. I just checked dictionary.com for a variety of definitions, and it's pretty much in line with how I use the word. According to that, I'm not intolerant of people who don't share my politics, which is what I've maintained all along. I tolerate them just fine, as friends, co-workers, family members, fuck buddies, acquaintances, etc. I simply choose to limit their place in my life to ones where those significant philosophical differences won't have a detrimental impact on the relationship.
None of the definitions I saw said anything about being inflexible where you should be flexible, and frankly, who decides just where I should be flexible and where I shouldn't? I don't think that's up to anyone outside my skin to decide. It's my responsibility and my perogative to set those boundaries for myself.
_____________________________
-- Sherri
Fighting for peace is like fucking for virginity.
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RE: When politics clash - 
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