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Is This How You Win A War? - 9/21/2006 3:56:14 PM   
Estring


Posts: 3314
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/opedcolumnists/a_deadly_kindness_opedcolumnists_richard_miniter.htm

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RE: Is This How You Win A War? - 9/21/2006 4:20:11 PM   
WyrdRich


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Joined: 1/3/2005
Status: offline 		       Earlier this week, I heard the point made that the Democrats seem more interested in protecting Al Quada than they are in protecting Americans.  This article would lead you towards that conclusion.

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RE: Is This How You Win A War? - 9/21/2006 5:07:32 PM   
KenDckey


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WyrdRich

      Earlier this week, I heard the point made that the Democrats seem more interested in protecting Al Quada than they are in protecting Americans.  This article would lead you towards that conclusion.


concur

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RE: Is This How You Win A War? - 9/21/2006 5:19:29 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		LOLOLOL,

not taped perhaps for privacy.

LOLOLOL,

ja, nearly all the 440 would be honored.....  not been taped or been recorded, who is anybody fuckin' kidding here? I have been in military prisons  and stockades in the course of  government business (not as an inmate, either; smart asses, my  DD-214 says honorable and full term service.)

We have such things as DNA evidence and yet, we let many people go from death row each year because it turns out they didn't do it, but in the adversarial conditions, it turned out to be the power of a lawyer to talk ...

All of them proclaim innocence, so this is an equivalent?  Then slaughter the dogs in Gitmo, who are honored; and let all the innocents on death row take a hike.

If you torture a human long enough they will tell you they burnt the fuckin' Reichstag, but that don't necessarily make it fuckin' so.........


Ron








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RE: Is This How You Win A War? - 9/21/2006 7:27:27 PM   
EnglishDomNW


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Status: offline 		I really must not comment on non-UK issues, hence the edit.

< Message edited by EnglishDomNW -- 9/21/2006 7:36:53 PM >

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RE: Is This How You Win A War? - 9/21/2006 7:39:10 PM   
WyrdRich


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quote:

ORIGINAL: EnglishDomNW

quote:

ORIGINAL: WyrdRich

    Earlier this week, I heard the point made that the Democrats seem more interested in protecting Al Quada than they are in protecting Americans.  This article would lead you towards that conclusion.


I really am glad you're not an English Conservative saying that about an English Democrat, that is a downright shameful thing to say.



       It's a downright shameful way to act too.  Perhaps the soundbites of Democrats comparing our guards and soldiers to Nazi's don't make it across the water.  I'm not saying it is true, just that partisan politics make it easy to percieve that way.

   

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RE: Is This How You Win A War? - 9/21/2006 10:36:55 PM   
meatcleaver


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Status: offline 		Holding people without trial in Guantanimo Bay is still against human rights, even if they are tucked up and given a kiss good night after a bed time story. I think on a day when the UN said that torture is more wide spread in Iraq now than under Saddam and where once 14% of the Sunnis supported the insurgents and now 75% do and 3,500 Iraqis have been killed this last month, this article is meaningless.

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RE: Is This How You Win A War? - 9/22/2006 12:36:12 AM   
Kedicat


Posts: 251
Joined: 3/13/2005
Status: offline 		Geez. I started to think this was a satire piece as I read.
The US had better invade Gitmo in force to save those poor soldiers, before the terrorists take over the base, then Cuba then the world.

But at least those guys imprisoned there without charges for years can be used to prop up the slogan, They hate us for our freedom.

Anyone ever hear about any nasty things happening in US prisons filled with Us citizens? Nahhhhhh!!!! Never happen.


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RE: Is This How You Win A War? - 9/22/2006 12:52:13 AM   
Estring


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Status: offline 		Do you know who is actually being held at Guantanamo? They weren't innocent people just minding their own business when we captured them. These are people who were fighting against us, and would have no problem killing everyone of us if they could. 
And I guess you are trying to make a connection to all the innocent people we have taken off the streets and put into American prisons as well? Yes, we do that here. We just take innocent people off the streets and jail them. They are all innocent too. Just ask them. 

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RE: Is This How You Win A War? - 9/22/2006 12:59:39 AM   
Zensee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Estring

Do you know who is actually being held at Guantanamo?

Of course not. Do you? Really?
0

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RE: Is This How You Win A War? - 9/22/2006 2:52:53 AM   
rulemylife


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Status: offline 		You're kidding, right?  The New York Post?  A true bastion of journalistic integrity and objectivity!  Hey, my Grandmother believes the Guantanamo prisoners are all space aliens sent here to infiltrate our world and cause us to destroy ourselves.  It must be true.  She read it in the National Enquirer.  "Enquiring minds want to know."

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RE: Is This How You Win A War? - 9/22/2006 3:29:16 AM   
philosophy


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Status: offline 		"Do you know who is actually being held at Guantanamo? They weren't innocent people just minding their own business when we captured them. These are people who were fighting against us, and would have no problem killing everyone of us if they could."

....then how come so many have been released without charge? In a western democracy people are innocent until proven guilty. It's called justice. While Guatanamo fails to charge people or even see the evidence against them it is an affront to justice. If the evidence exists that these people are terrorists, then charge them. If the evidence suggests they are enemy combatants, then treat them as such. The current legal twilight zone they are being held under serves nobody's interest. It really is that simple. If we want to have the moral high ground we have to actually occupy it.

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RE: Is This How You Win A War? - 9/22/2006 4:03:19 AM   
krys


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Estring

Do you know who is actually being held at Guantanamo? They weren't innocent people just minding their own business when we captured them. These are people who were fighting against us, and would have no problem killing everyone of us if they could. 


You don't know who is actually being held at Guantanamo either.  You may decide to completely swallow the hype from one side with an agenda over the other side with an agenda, but that doesn't make it fact.  We don't really know who is being held there or what is being done to them because its not like we can let pesky little meaningless documents like the Geneva Convention or U.S. Constitution get in the way of getting what we want.  Even the Supreme Court says the White House has overstepped its powers under the U.S. Constitution regarding what it is doing in Guantanamo.  And now we are looking to "reinterpret" the Geneva Convention, so Bush can read it to mean he can do whatever he wants.  Just like the Presidential signing statements, ignoring the FISA Courts, seperation of Church and State, a system of checks and balances and so on. 

Torture may be effective.  So may be suspending people in some perpetual middle ground so you don't have to comply with international laws regarding prisoners of war.  Its also evil and wrong.  Its the way of despots and dictators throughout history.  We are supposed to be better than that.  Suspending all honor in the face of adversity is not supposed to be the American ideal of justice.  Right now, our country is taking a "the ends justify the means" approach and I, for one, am disgusted.

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RE: Is This How You Win A War? - 9/22/2006 4:19:26 AM   
LadyEllen


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From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		Torture doesnt work - but then, asking nicely doesnt work either when people want to hide something.

The first problem with torture is what Ron said - people will tell you anything to stop the pain, once they reach a breaking point. And everyone has one.

The second problem with torture is that it is not what people think its for - it does not produce reliable information - it is carried out with the sole intention of destroying someone psychologically by harming them (even damaging them) physically. The overall aim being to spread terror in the opponent population such that they will back down for fear of facing the same treatment.

This is the nature of Guantanamo - an effort, however much of a failure it is, to cause fear in those who might end up there. That it holds some likely dangerous people is a beneficial side effect to the fact that one needs a group on whom to practice torture to achieve that aim. What the US authorities seem to misunderstand is that Islamo-Fascists (or whatever name they have this week) are not put off by this tactic, but rather encouraged in their resistance and most importantly VINDICATED in their own mindset of the evils of the west, against which they then are justified to struggle.

And if you really think torture works, then go straight to the one thing that all men are afraid to have harmed, and especially to lose. Pussyfooting around is just a waste of time. Take a scalpel to his genitals, and any man will tell you anything you want to hear. Though its likely to be just that, rather than the truth.

E

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RE: Is This How You Win A War? - 9/22/2006 4:19:40 AM   
Riff


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Estring

Do you know who is actually being held at Guantanamo? They weren't innocent people just minding their own business when we captured them.



There were a number of British citizens detained illegally in Guantanamo bay, simply for being in a location.

and you have no evidence of your assertion. If you did, then your government would also have evidence and would be able to try and convict those prisoners.

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