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When Bliss Turns to Bust: Financial Realities At the E... - 1/14/2005 9:34:59 AM

stef

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I've seen all kinds of discussions here about master/slave relationships. One topic that never seems to get much coverage is what happens when such relationships come to an end, particularly long-term ones. People hope that such relationships will last a lifetime, but as it is with the majority of marriages, this is often nothing more than wishful thinking.

There are means for financial separation after the dissolution of a marriage, but what happens when a slave has given up their livelihood to enter service and find themselves, several/many years later, starting over again? Where does the obligation lie on the part of the master to make sure their ex-slave isn't destitute after their term of service?

Do you set up a bank account for them, a 401k, some other kind of long term financial planning or do you just cut them loose and expect them to fend for themselves? Nobody wants to have to deal with glaring realities like this, but where does the responsibility of the master end?

It would be nice to hear from some of the participants in such a relationship and hear how they chose to deal with this issue.

~stef

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Welcome to PoliticSpace! If you came here expecting meaningful BDSM discussions, boy are you in the wrong place.

"Hypocrisy has consequences"

Post #: 1

RE: When Bliss Turns to Bust: Financial Realities At t... - 1/14/2005 9:46:19 AM

sub4hire

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I had a longtime relationship end. Although I was never his slave. Our money was always kept seperate with the exception of one checkbook we each threw 500 a month in for general household expenses.
We did own a house together. A repo we purchased and rebuilt. We made a killing on that. Essentially divided up the profit 50-50. Bought the house I live in now. When he released me I bought him out. Simple as that.
There was never a time he supported me. I made more money, he was military afterall.
We parted happy. So, I guess we didn't have the same amount of turmoil many do.
It was easy to say, you take this and I'll take that sort of stuff.

(in reply to stef)

Post #: 2

RE: When Bliss Turns to Bust: Financial Realities At t... - 1/14/2005 10:02:39 AM

GoddessJules

Posts: 549
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Given the facts that you posted about your D/s relationship. . .I don't think it applies to the scenario Stef presented. What she is talkig about is those owner/slave relationships where the slave *gives up* their livelihood in order to serve their ownder exclusively. In the situation, the person isn't getting a work sponsored pension plan, they don't get social security points to draw from when they turn of age, they don't have income to invest in an IRA, hell. . .they might not even be given a checking account. During this time of service, since they aren't *gainfully* employed. . .they aren't establishing credit either. There are MAJOR pitfalls to that scenario. . .and I guess she wants to know what owners are doing about it.

J

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Post #: 3

RE: When Bliss Turns to Bust: Financial Realities At t... - 1/14/2005 11:28:05 AM

MemphisDsCouple

Posts: 146
Joined: 11/1/2004
From: Memphis, TN, USA
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Hi stef. I think you've introduced a very useful and important subject. I offer a couple of first impressions.

quote:

ORIGINAL: sfgrrl

I've seen all kinds of discussions here about master/slave relationships. One topic that never seems to get much coverage is what happens when such relationships come to an end, particularly long-term ones. People hope that such relationships will last a lifetime, but as it is with the majority of marriages, this is often nothing more than wishful thinking.

If it's only wishful thinking, can't we just solve the problem by not making commitments we're likely to renege on later? No muss, no fuss... easy peasy solution.

quote:

There are means for financial separation after the dissolution of a marriage, but what happens when a slave has given up their livelihood to enter service and find themselves, several/many years later, starting over again? Where does the obligation lie on the part of the master to make sure their ex-slave isn't destitute after their term of service?

Do you set up a bank account for them, a 401k, some other kind of long term financial planning or do you just cut them loose and expect them to fend for themselves? Nobody wants to have to deal with glaring realities like this, but where does the responsibility of the master end?

Personally, I make plans (financial plans being only a part of that) for my incapacitation (hopefully unnecessary plans) should that ever occur. Similarly, I make plans for decedents in the event of my demise (which will surely occur - though hopefully not prematurely). Anyone who relies on me is included in those plans. (My dog too. lol)

So, by way of a short answer to the question you posed, my responsibility for those in my service, and/or for those dependent on me in my home has no end.

But it sounds to me like what you're really fishing for is more like a prenuptial agreement. Personally, I refuse to agree to agree to fail. I am not interested either in that type of relationship, or in that type of person/submissive/slave/lover/whatever.

< Message edited by MemphisDsCouple -- 1/14/2005 11:30:15 AM >

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Post #: 4

RE: When Bliss Turns to Bust: Financial Realities At t... - 1/14/2005 11:34:40 AM

MemphisDsCouple

Posts: 146
Joined: 11/1/2004
From: Memphis, TN, USA
Status: offline

P.S.

I think the majority of people do not value sustaining a relationship as highly as I do. For them, a d/s prenupe may be just the thing.

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(in reply to stef)

Post #: 5

RE: When Bliss Turns to Bust: Financial Realities At t... - 1/14/2005 12:01:35 PM

sub4hire

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I know, yet it was another point of reference.

In my mind I've only known one such instance of a slave lifestyle. In that case they were married. He did set her up a pension so to speak. Which was really just his estate going to her when his demise came.
She got the house, a rather hefty bank account. The biggest problem of all was. She didn't know how to manage any of it. She was devoted to cooking and cleaning, taking care of him.
Didn't even know how to manage the checkbook.

Now, if the circumstances were changed and they had actually broken up instead of his passing away. I imagine it would have been much worse. She would probably have been left penniless.

(in reply to GoddessJules)

Post #: 6

RE: When Bliss Turns to Bust: Financial Realities At t... - 1/14/2005 12:32:02 PM

stef

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MemphisDsCouple

Hi stef. I think you've introduced a very useful and important subject. I offer a couple of first impressions.

If it's only wishful thinking, can't we just solve the problem by not making commitments we're likely to renege on later? No muss, no fuss... easy peasy solution.

On paper perhaps. People (well, most people) usually don't enter into a serious relationship with the goal of ending it prematurely. Oddly enough, that doesn't seem to stop it from happening the majority of the time.

quote:

Personally, I make plans (financial plans being only a part of that) for my incapacitation (hopefully unnecessary plans) should that ever occur. Similarly, I make plans for decedents in the event of my demise (which will surely occur - though hopefully not prematurely). Anyone who relies on me is included in those plans. (My dog too. lol)

So, by way of a short answer to the question you posed, my responsibility for those in my service, and/or for those dependent on me in my home has no end.

That's fantastic, but it doesn't really cover the eventuality I was addressing. All of the above can be accomplished by a will/living will. Unfortunately, those instruments offer no remedy whatsoever in the event of a premature ending of the relationship.

quote:

But it sounds to me like what you're really fishing for is more like a prenuptial agreement. Personally, I refuse to agree to agree to fail. I am not interested either in that type of relationship, or in that type of person/submissive/slave/lover/whatever.

Planning for the possibility that a relationship might not last "till death do us part" is worlds away from agreeing to fail. At the cynical end of the scale, it's playing the odds. On a less cynical note, it's simply responsible behavior.

~stef

_____________________________

Welcome to PoliticSpace! If you came here expecting meaningful BDSM discussions, boy are you in the wrong place.

"Hypocrisy has consequences"

(in reply to MemphisDsCouple)

Post #: 7

RE: When Bliss Turns to Bust: Financial Realities At t... - 1/14/2005 3:19:23 PM

FangsNfeet

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It would suck to just leave someone out on the street. In an attempt to be nice I'd

1. Try to give him/her away to another master
2. Provide the means for them to be with friends or family
3. Would be easier to break up with if they had there own job and car

It really boils down to what has caused the break up and on what terms you can end it with. But for the most part, I'd try to put them in a new situated environment and disapear from there life.

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(in reply to stef)

Post #: 8

RE: When Bliss Turns to Bust: Financial Realities At t... - 1/14/2005 4:14:28 PM

Samizdat

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Joined: 1/13/2005
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Simple solution (from my perspective): Don't take on gold-digger slaves. They work, they pull their weight like anyone else. Oh -- and did I mention, stay away from California, the only backward (alimony-granting) state left in the Union, home of the professionally idle woman?

(in reply to stef)

Post #: 9

RE: When Bliss Turns to Bust: Financial Realities At t... - 1/14/2005 4:23:38 PM

Mercnbeth

Posts: 11766
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quote:

They work, they pull their weight like anyone else. Oh -- and did I mention, stay away from California,

Damn - Two strikes against me!

(in reply to Samizdat)

Post #: 10

RE: When Bliss Turns to Bust: Financial Realities At t... - 1/14/2005 4:26:42 PM

sub4hire

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quote:

home of the professionally idle woman?

I guess you're one of those know it all's who has never been to california?

Figures..hehe.

(in reply to Samizdat)

Post #: 11

RE: When Bliss Turns to Bust: Financial Realities At t... - 1/14/2005 4:35:28 PM

BlkTallFullfig

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Joined: 6/25/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Samizdat

Simple solution (from my perspective): Don't take on gold-digger slaves. They work, they pull their weight like anyone else. Oh -- and did I mention, stay away from California, the only backward (alimony-granting) state left in the Union, home of the professionally idle woman?

hey Samiz, you almost sound like you should read and follow Submit&be loved's threads, but anyway.....
I think the better advice is Do what works for both: I believe, that if someone gives up what they have/what they are for you, than you are responsible for him/her; so, either Marry him, and be 1/2 responsible for him, or set up legal papers (power of attorney, Living wills/trusts, etc) to take responsibility even after the relationship dissolves.
I think it behooves each slave to decide how much to trust; this is where having a partner who is a good/kind/generous person is important to have in a partner, instead of just going through play motions, because indeed it may mean you are left out in the cold to fend for yourself in the end. JMO, M

< Message edited by BlkTallFullfig -- 1/14/2005 4:43:52 PM >

(in reply to Samizdat)

Post #: 12

RE: When Bliss Turns to Bust: Financial Realities At t... - 1/14/2005 4:48:17 PM

BlkTallFullfig

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Dang, Gloria, MercandBeth and I were all preparing to spank Samiz at same time, lol. M

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Post #: 13

RE: When Bliss Turns to Bust: Financial Realities At t... - 1/14/2005 5:14:33 PM

EStrict

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Joined: 1/11/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Samizdat

Simple solution (from my perspective): Don't take on gold-digger slaves. They work, they pull their weight like anyone else. Oh -- and did I mention, stay away from California, the only backward (alimony-granting) state left in the Union, home of the professionally idle woman?

Well, I may not work outside of the home, but that is at MASTER's choice. It doesn't make me *proffesionally idle*. California is not the only state that will grant alimony though. Really hate to pop your bubble, but you live in Nevada. Live with a slave for long enough to have a *common law* marriage, she is entitled to half of everything the two of you have. Marry her, and that entitlement comes sooner. Lot's of other states like that too....

In answer to the origanal poster's question though: Everything we have is in Master's name. I have his assurance that he would *provide* for me if things ever ended, and believing him to be an honorable man, I trust him in that. There is a power of attorney signed with the will to allow me to close out accounts and access things easier should the end not be breaking up, but something worse.

If the ending is less amiable, we did marry, and I am *legally* entitled to 50%, but I wouldn't fight for it. I signed a *quit claim* on the house for him to be able to purchase it just in his name, but claim or not, I could get out of that if need be.

My first marriage was vanilla. Granted, I was 8 years younger than I am now, but I left it with my car, my two children, what fit in the car and what I could fit in the 5 boxes I UPS'ed (most of it the children's). The boxes got mailed back when he stole the kids, and I ended up with what fit in my car. It wasn't always easy, but I survived, and if I ever had to do it again, I am sure I could. But once again, I know the kind of man Ross is, and I know how important his word is to him.... so that is moot.

_____________________________

Sandy

Don't take life too seriously, no one gets out alive anyway...

(in reply to Samizdat)

Post #: 14

RE: When Bliss Turns to Bust: Financial Realities At t... - 1/14/2005 5:31:28 PM

MemphisDsCouple

Posts: 146
Joined: 11/1/2004
From: Memphis, TN, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: sfgrrl

quote:

ORIGINAL: MemphisDsCouple

But it sounds to me like what you're really fishing for is more like a prenuptial agreement. Personally, I refuse to agree to agree to fail. I am not interested either in that type of relationship, or in that type of person/submissive/slave/lover/whatever.

Planning for the possibility that a relationship might not last "till death do us part" is worlds away from agreeing to fail. At the cynical end of the scale, it's playing the odds. On a less cynical note, it's simply responsible behavior.

~stef

hmmmmmm, stef

Behaving responsibly by putting in place a plan that minimizes the consequences of future irresponsible behavior? Now wait a minute. Something rings hollowly here.

A plan that turns a d/s, and moreover a m/s relationship into a normal, modern (and in my personal philosophy of life and relationships - a disgusting) vanilla relationship when someone changes their mind? Let's wait another minute and think about this a bit more deeply.

We covered incapacitation and death. But you write that those are not the issues we are addressing in this continuing discussion.

quote:

ORIGINAL: sfgrrl

but it doesn't really cover the eventuality I was addressing. All of the above can be accomplished by a will/living will. Unfortunately, those instruments offer no remedy whatsoever in the event of a premature ending of the relationship.

"Premature ending"...... As I think and write, those words keep coming back to me. Is "premature ending" another way of saying someone, probably the slave, changed her mind? If she serves well and true, why should the owner change his mind?

If you had said not everyone enters a relationship promising "till death do us part", I would have said: You're right. A prenupe sounds wise for those people. But that's not what you wrote. You simply wrote that the promise is often made, and less often kept. And you're right.

Color me primitive.

In many cases primitive people have/had no word in their language for "lie" or "falsehood". Guess I'm kinda a throwback. If a person doesn't mean "till death do us part"...... don't say, "till death do us part". This is not a complicated, multifaceted concept, this "till death do us part". It only becomes complicated when I see people try to justify a way out of it. *Then* it gets complicated. It defies the meanings of the words used in the sentences to simultaneously enter a commitment "till death do us part" and also "plan for the possibility that a relationship might not last 'till death do us part'".

To embrace those contradictions is not responsible behavior. It is deceptive behavior. Beyond being deceptive behavior, it is usurous behavior. It intentionally, and with forethought commits to one never-changing and unqualified course of action while simultaneously keeping options open to follow another course of action. Where does that behavior leave the other person in the relationship who has relied on the promise? hmmmm? And I'll tell you what else I think it is. I think it is destructive behavior. I've never read a study of prenupes. But I'll lay odds that the incidence of divorce is way higher in marriages/relationships with prenupes than in those without prenupes. To contemplate and plan for breaking off the relationship is merely laying out and following a path to a breakup.

A prenupe is, by the definition of the thing itself, an acknowledgement and agreement that you may fail, that it will be ok to fail and that the failure will be handled as specified in the prenupe. It is an agreement in which the two people agree on how to fail.

quote:

ORIGINAL: sfgrrl

There are means for financial separation after the dissolution of a marriage, but what happens when a slave has given up their livelihood to enter service and find themselves, several/many years later, starting over again? Where does the obligation lie on the part of the master to make sure their ex-slave isn't destitute after their term of service?

The question, as posed, addresses a master/slave relationship. I read that very literally. It is not, and is not to be confused with a vanilla marriage. One can never have one's cake and eat it too. Just as I embraced my responsibilities in my first response to the question at hand, to which you replied:

quote:

ORIGINAL: sfgrrl

That's fantastic

So too, I claim the corresponding and complimentary prerogatives. In this case specifically, I decline to relinquish my prerogative to own, enjoy and keep my property once a girl commits to be mine "till death do us part". Will I restrain her physically if she chooses to leave? No. Almost all slavery embraces a measure of consensuality (see "The Choice of Slavery" here: http://www.collarme.com/forum/m_53926/mpage_1/key_/tm.htm#54201 ) and I will not employ physical force if a slave chooses to leave my service. However, to ask me to facilitate that choice in any way would be pretty ridiculous from my point of view. (And that includes a prenupe.)

I want to remind that the responses to your writings that I have offered apply to me and my life only. I'm sure there are men who fool prospective slaves for a while. However, that should not last long. Indeed, any perceptive, discerning prospective slave should have spent enough time with a prospective owner and know enough about that prospective owner to know whether or not he is deceiving her about pivotal issues *before* the slave commits to "till death do us part". To do otherwise is vastly foolish and when people do foolish things, there are usually unpleasant consequences. But at any rate, to learn this about a master should not take the

quote:

ORIGINAL: sfgrrl
several/many years

you mention.

So, the problem you describe should not exist in the case in which the master has lured the slave into a commitment with falsehoods. It should be uncovered before the "several/many years" have elapsed.

(Just kind of brainstorming the question you pose here.)

I think the question you're really trying to address may be: What if the slave changes her mind after "several/many years" and decides she wants to leave? Decides she no longer wants to be her master's slave? Should she have a trust fund set up for her? Should she have a separation fund in her name? To facilitate her decision to break her promise of "till death do us part"? lol.... I don't think so.

quote]ORIGINAL: sfgrrl

Where does the obligation lie on the part of the master to make sure their ex-slave isn't destitute after their term of service?

Whoa!! We covered that, but you said it wasn't what you were talking about. The "term of service" was "till death do us part". And you said that can be handled fine with wills and living wills (and trusts and so on even though you didn't mention those estate planning tools). The more I read and think about this, the more I'm convinced that we're just talking about a slave changing her mind and reneging on her commitment.

I say again: Personally, I refuse to agree to agree to fail. I am not interested either in that type of relationship, or in that type of person/submissive/slave/lover/whatever.

Postscript:

The reader is welcome to print or save this post for your own use. Please do not copy it to any public or semi-public forum (including email groups/lists) without my express permission. Thanks. All rights reserved. (I write this postscript because after-the-fact someone wrote to me to inform me that they had copied a prior post I wrote to another list. So, I thought I'd better clarify what my preference/policy is regarding use of what I write.)

B. (the male half of MemphisDsCouple)

(in reply to stef)

Post #: 15

RE: When Bliss Turns to Bust: Financial Realities At t... - 1/14/2005 6:04:59 PM

Samizdat

Posts: 15
Joined: 1/13/2005
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Estrict: I trust you have regained custody of your children?

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(in reply to EStrict)

Post #: 16

RE: When Bliss Turns to Bust: Financial Realities At t... - 1/14/2005 6:09:15 PM

Samizdat

Posts: 15
Joined: 1/13/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BlkTallFullfig

Dang, Gloria, MercandBeth and I were all preparing to spank Samiz at same time, lol. M

I'm into spanking on the administering end, BTF, perhaps we can work out something...

_____________________________

Fallen Firefighter of the Day, Thomas Butler, Squad 1, FDNY, made the Supreme Sacrifice on 9/11/01. Memorial Service held on August 17, 2002

(in reply to BlkTallFullfig)

Post #: 17

RE: When Bliss Turns to Bust: Financial Realities At t... - 1/14/2005 6:24:43 PM

EStrict

Posts: 729
Joined: 1/11/2004
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quote:

Estrict: I trust you have regained custody of your children?

No, as I have mentioned in the past, my two older children live in PA with their father. I do a good relationship with them both, and the 18 year old is here until the end of the month and is considering moving to Vegas, though he wouldn't live with us.

We did take in a child 16 month's ago (long story, elsewhere on the board) who we do have legal guardianship of, and hope to raise. He is currently 2 1/2 and a wonderful child, and Master considers all three boys to be his. He is helping pay for my 2nd son's college, and has committed to helping the older one in anyway possible if he choses to relocate here. We are also planning as if we have no fears of losing Race, including working on plans for his college education also when the time comes. So, even though both of my bilogical children will have reached legal maturity by this June, we have another 15 1/2 years of having a minor in our lives.

_____________________________

Sandy

Don't take life too seriously, no one gets out alive anyway...

(in reply to Samizdat)

Post #: 18

RE: When Bliss Turns to Bust: Financial Realities At t... - 1/15/2005 10:43:52 AM

stef

Posts: 10215
Joined: 1/26/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MemphisDsCouple

I think the question you're really trying to address may be: What if the slave changes her mind after "several/many years" and decides she wants to leave? Decides she no longer wants to be her master's slave? Should she have a trust fund set up for her? Should she have a separation fund in her name? To facilitate her decision to break her promise of "till death do us part"? lol.... I don't think so.

You're incorrect. The questions I'm trying to address are the questions I asked originally.

Your reluctance to admit that a long term master/slave relationship might end prematurely and not be due solely to the actions of irresponsible, deceitful or deceptive slaves seems to be the driving force behind your opinions. Your last sentence above was all you needed to answer my original post with, and it would have saved us all a lot of time.

Thanks for your input.

~stef

_____________________________

Welcome to PoliticSpace! If you came here expecting meaningful BDSM discussions, boy are you in the wrong place.

"Hypocrisy has consequences"

(in reply to MemphisDsCouple)

Post #: 19

RE: When Bliss Turns to Bust: Financial Realities At t... - 1/15/2005 5:18:21 PM

LdyAuburn

Posts: 179
Joined: 5/9/2004
Status: offline

Though my submissive does still work, he has no direct access to his pay bar a small amount. I do have set up a fund whereby a certain amount of monies are put into that each pay day automatically. In Australia we also have superannuation which currently we are putting quite considerable resources into his as he earns quite a bit more than me.
We are both older and have one failed marriage behind us, mine was d/s his wasnt. So accepting both hindsight and statistics I have funds set aside so that if we do finish for whatever reason he can leave/kicked out and he wont be destituate and able to set up a new household.

(in reply to stef)

Post #: 20

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