RE: Darfur myths

RE: Darfur myths (Full Version)

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NorthernGent -> RE: Darfur myths (9/25/2006 11:34:17 AM)
Right where do I start with this one: MC, 1) You're absolutely right that I shouldn't have used Sudan as an example of the mistrust the world has for the UN because of perceived Western influence. A bad example as you point out (even though it is a bad example not for the reasons you believe it to be). It is a bad example because the Sudanese Government should not be cited on grounds of integrity (not because of your ill-conceived ideas that I am anti-American). 2) I find your constant "anti-American and anti-British rants" quotes bizarre to say the least. I could cite you corruption all over the world of various sorts from Chirac's recent attempts to avoid corruption charges when his Presidential immunacy ends next year to China's human rights record to Germany's blatant disregard for this record in actively seeking to extend trade links with China - no need to list a whole page. The point is, most people on this board are British or American hence the criticism of US and British foreign policy. Would anyone be interested if I started a thread on the corruption that has plagued Paris town hall governance for decades and the resulting jail sentences and jail avoidance by Chirac? Probably not because we tend to have more of an interest in our Governments i.e. the ones we can do something about. So, do me a favour, discuss what is actually being typed, not your ill though out and bizarre notions that I believe only the British and US Governments are capable of corruption and exploitation. Unless of course you can't bear to hear criticism of these two particular Governments? How come though, when the USA does something you rant about it doing it purely for oil but when China does something for oil you say nothing? Well I can see why Sudan wants to keep China in its pocket, good old fashioned oil politics and a guardian angel on the Security Council. Screw the refugees, Sudan has a protector, let the refugees die and so decrease the surplus population. Your rants against the USA and UK would be more meaningful if you were equally critical of other countries. The lack of such criticism just exposes your prejudices. Can you not see how ridiculous this looks and sounds? It's like me saying to you I've never heard you denounce Russia's invasion of Chechyna so you must support it.

popeye1250 -> RE: Darfur myths (9/25/2006 11:55:00 AM)
Gent, it appears that this is the same old run around by people who constantly criticize the U.S. and Britain for "interfereing" in other countries; "How do we get U.S. and British Taxdollars and Troops involved in "our" cause?"

NorthernGent -> RE: Darfur myths (9/25/2006 12:35:34 PM)
mbmbn, I don't mind admitting that I am no expert on Sudan. In fact, my knowledge is based around what I have read in the past 6 months (supporting your "where was everyone in 1992" comment, although in my defence I was 19 and had other things on my mind). However, I have seen all sorts of claims being made that are simply claims not supported by what is happening on the ground - hence the article link. Also, my point wasn't to suggest that what is happening is not genocide but that there is a political power struggle at play and this can be overlooked by simply calling the situation "ethnic cleansing".

seeksfemslave -> RE: Darfur myths (9/25/2006 1:14:10 PM)
NorthernGent, since you have boasted about having studied at University I think its quite fair to criticize you for using words like immunacy when you mean immunity, really very feeble and playing into the hands of those who believe that educational standards have seriously declined. Your general geo political knowledge, for a History graduate, is very very weak, I say this not because we disagree but because your arguments are so poorly made.!!! Must try harder!!! lol

NorthernGent -> RE: Darfur myths (9/25/2006 1:33:01 PM)
Seeks, it's called long working hours corrupting the brain. Do I detect a perverse pleasure in a spelling mistake? I'm surprised you've only spotted the one - look closer, you'll find enough to help you wank yourself into a coma. Anyway, as I've told you before, when I said I went to University, I meant I went on day release doing a gardening course that consisted of me pulling weeds out of the ground. Now, can we return to discussing points rather than petty sniping. President Chirac and immunacy/ity (your call, Seeks) - what do you think?

BlkTallFullfig -> RE: Darfur myths (9/25/2006 1:39:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent Seeks, it's called long working hours corrupting the brain. Do I detect a perverse pleasure in a spelling mistake? I'm surprised you've only spotted the one - look closer, you'll find enough to help you wank yourself into a coma. [sm=biggrin.gif] LMAO. M

meatcleaver -> RE: Darfur myths (9/25/2006 1:44:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent How come though, when the USA does something you rant about it doing it purely for oil but when China does something for oil you say nothing? Well I can see why Sudan wants to keep China in its pocket, good old fashioned oil politics and a guardian angel on the Security Council. Screw the refugees, Sudan has a protector, let the refugees die and so decrease the surplus population. Your rants against the USA and UK would be more meaningful if you were equally critical of other countries. The lack of such criticism just exposes your prejudices. Can you not see how ridiculous this looks and sounds? It's like me saying to you I've never heard you denounce Russia's invasion of Chechyna so you must support it. Aah but I have denounced the Russian invasion of Chechyna. But point taken, I plucked China out of the air and it was a red herring.

maybemaybenot -> RE: Darfur myths (9/25/2006 1:50:26 PM)
NG: My reply was generic and not aimed at you personally. I am in no way an expert either, but I do have a decent knowledge of the history and current situation. I am pleased that people are getting involved and that the voices that have not been heard for many years are finally reaching the * world. Having said that.... the voices that cried out years ago are being trivialized by the current coverage < for lack of better word> which presents this situation as something new and rarely gives a decent timeline of the Sudan, nor does it often mention the Christian genocide. It is presented as soley a Muslim on Muslim issue. Of course their is a large political component to the situation in Darfur, but it is also an ethnic component. Just because Darfur is 100% Muslim, does not mean they are ethnically similar. They share a religion, not ethnicity. The Arab Muslims of the North, which includes Darfur, began their ethnic cleansing 20 years ago, beginning with the Christians. They simply have expanded their goal of an Arab Muslim state to the North and West. quoting from www.sudanupdate.org : By early 2003 exiled Sudanese rights activists claimed that the conflict in Western Sudan's Darfur region was developing from ethnic cleansing into genocide. The Khartoum government allegedly supports Arab militias in their massacre of Fur and other indigenous people termed "slaves". Khartoum however claims its neutrality and says it is fighting "banditry" in Darfur. I am not pointing fingers at you, nor picking on you.. but when you say: "However, I have seen all sorts of claims being made that are simply claims not supported by what is happening on the ground - hence the article link." The claims are supported by the past actions and continued actions and absence of reaction/accountability on the part of the Sudanese Government. It is my own friendships and work with Sudanese refugees, whom I prefer to call survivors that makes me so passionate on this subject, NG. I have Sudanese friends, both Christian and Muslim who escaped to the US or were " bought" by antislavery activists to be brought here to the US. Many I have known since 1992, and they were here a few years before I got to know them. Some have become like family to me. So I aplogize if I came off as sniping at you. I wanted to address Meatcleavers comment: quote:* Also, there are enough Americans here to correct me if I'm wrong but the pressure for the US to do something about Darfur doesn't come from the Bush administration and its eagerness for oil but from liberal American activists and humanitarian organisations. The US was the first to suggest and impose economic sanctions against the Sudan. 1997, under the Clinton Administration. In 2002 Bush Signed the Sudan Peace Act, imposing further/stricter sanctions. We had little to no support in getting other countries who actually were involved in the oil business there to sign on. " In November 1997, the United States first imposed economic sanctions against Sudan through Executive Order 13067 in response to Sudan's "support for international terrorism, ongoing efforts to destabilize neighboring governments, and the prevalence of human rights violations, including slavery and the denial of religious freedom." The Executive order prohibits trade between the two countries, as well as investment by U.S.-owned businesses in Sudan. Former Secretary of State Madeleine Albright stated that the sanctions were intended to "deprive the regime in Khartoum of the financial and material benefits of U.S. trade and investment, including investment in Sudan's petroleum sector." From: http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/sanction.html If you would like to follow the Oil Parade in the Sudan: http://www.sudanupdate.org/REPORTS/Oil/Oil.pdf#search=%22canadian%20MP%20and%20AASG%20sudan%22 Level : YVW , you probably knew I could not let this one slip by with out a little of my " activist voice" slipping out. I tend to try and shy away from the political threads and this subject is being bastardized by opposing political forces/activists etc for their own gain. Just my opinion, others may be different. mbmbn

Sinergy -> RE: Darfur myths (9/25/2006 1:51:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave NorthernGent, since you have boasted about having studied at University I think its quite fair to criticize you for using words like immunacy when you mean immunity, really very feeble and playing into the hands of those who believe that educational standards have seriously declined. Your general geo political knowledge, for a History graduate, is very very weak, I say this not because we disagree but because your arguments are so poorly made.!!! Must try harder!!! lol Hello A/all, College educated does not immediately imply literacy. I had the misfortune of being tasked as the technical editor for a bunch of computer and aerospace engineers with BS, MS, and/or PhDs. After wading through their inarticulate gibberish for two years, I came to the conclusion that I was the only engineer in the group that actually learned what part of a sentence the writer is supposed to put a period. Just me, could be wrong, but there you go. Sinergy

NorthernGent -> RE: Darfur myths (9/26/2006 11:50:49 AM)
Aah but I have denounced the Russian invasion of Chechyna. Aah but that wasn't my point. My point was/is, you may have denounced it a thousand times but because I haven't heard it I don't believe you (which is effectively what you are saying).

NorthernGent -> RE: Darfur myths (9/26/2006 12:08:27 PM)
mbmbn, I didn't take it as sniping, absolutely no apologies necessary. I don't think there's much left for me to do on this one apart from pick my tail up, tie it firmly between my legs and scuttle off into the distance. Lesson learned on diving into areas where my knowledge isn't quite there

meatcleaver -> RE: Darfur myths (9/26/2006 12:53:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent Aah but I have denounced the Russian invasion of Chechyna. Aah but that wasn't my point. My point was/is, you may have denounced it a thousand times but because I haven't heard it I don't believe you (which is effectively what you are saying). You wouldn't have heard it but you could have read it on these threads.

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