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Darfur myths - 9/24/2006 11:30:03 AM   
NorthernGent


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Status: offline 		For those with an interest in the Darfur situation this link is a thought provoking article that looks to explain and critically analyse some of the myths and popular views about the motivations in this conflict.

http://www.muslimnews.co.uk/news/news.php?article=11031

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RE: Darfur myths - 9/24/2006 11:36:32 AM   
meatcleaver


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Status: offline 		Great independent source.

Since the government backs the Arab militias or muslim Arabized blacks, its a nice subtle piece in white washing the government.

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RE: Darfur myths - 9/24/2006 12:09:32 PM   
NorthernGent


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Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline 		Great independent source.
 
The Washington Post isn't independent enough for you? Why? And, why would you use The Guardian articles to support your arguments but question the integrity of The Washington post articles? An explanation of why you believe The Guardian can be relied upon more than The Washington Post will be useful here.

Since the government backs the Arab militias or muslim Arabized blacks, its a nice subtle piece in white washing the government.
 
Have you read the article? If so, did you miss this bit?:

That's why the government hit back so hard. They saw Turabi's hand, and they want to stay in control of Sudan at any cost."

and this bit?

Sudan's government has used the genocide label to market itself in the Middle East as another victim of America's anti-Arab and anti-Islamic policies.
 
It's fair to say the article suggests the Sudanese Goverment is manipulating opinion in an attempt to stay in power at all costs.

Also, you didn't read the part on so-called Arab/Black "divisions". They are all black in Darfur and they are all Muslims (so not sure where you're going with your "muslim arabized blacks" statement suggesting only one side is Muslim and black.

It's actually an interesting article that deals with many of the popular misconceptions surrounding Darfur if you care to read it.




 
 




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RE: Darfur myths - 9/24/2006 12:28:00 PM   
Level


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Status: offline 		I'm no expert, but one thing I might not be in agreement with is the "they're all muslim" statement, Gent.
 
Also, the article states that "...perhaps most counterproductive, the United States has failed to follow up with meaningful action." When Colin Powell did use the word "genocide", it fell upon the U.N. to act, not just America.
 
http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0614/p06s01-woaf.html


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RE: Darfur myths - 9/24/2006 12:35:11 PM   
NorthernGent


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They are all Muslims in Darfur. 100% fact. I have had a look at your article and can't see where it actually suggests otherwise. Feel free to cut and paste it.

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RE: Darfur myths - 9/24/2006 1:09:28 PM   
Level


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Status: offline 		I didn't mean for the link to suggest they weren't, I just included it for a bit more information. I'm roaming around Google, and you (and the article) may indeed be right. I just read this from David Horowitz's FrontPage site: "With Darfur, I think that because it is an intra-Muslim conflict, it is not as clearly religiously-motivated as say, Khartoum's genocidal war against Sudan's Christians.  The fact that the Darfur conflict is getting far more press than the atrocities committed against Sudan's animists and Christians indicates that the media is more comfortable with an "ethnic" conflict between Arabs and Africans than with an Islamic jihad against non-Muslims."

 

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RE: Darfur myths - 9/24/2006 1:27:29 PM   
seeksfemslave


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Status: offline 		So, Muslim is fighting Muslim in both Sudan and Eyeraq, I am told Islam is a religion of peace. Islamic apologists say so, dont they ?

NG in your other post you said the Sudan govnt. didnt trust the UK/US now your post says that the Sudanese govnt. is lying and projecting itself as victims of the US.

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RE: Darfur myths - 9/24/2006 1:31:32 PM   
LadyEllen


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From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		Whoever is persecuting whom, for whatever reason, wherever they are and whatever means they use, its wrong.

That the UN is seemingly doing nothing about this situation is unsurprising, since such inactivity has a good precedent in that organisation, as does the handwringing that will ensue once the persecution is complete.

But we shouldnt blame the UN. The whole thing was set up for an entirely different reason after all, as can be seen by the membership of the security council. But we can blame the constituent countries - so few of which will step up to the mark when the chips are down, and back up their fine words with troops and/or funding for anything.

No wonder the Americans are sick of the UN, being ever expected to do something, whilst the rest sit and watch and snipe from the sidelines at how they do it. Very few others will contribute, and when they do they are accused along with the Americans of mishandling the situation. Of course those who do not take part did not mishandle the situation - because they chose to do nothing. 

This of course is not to endorse in any way, the sidestepping of  the UN by Bush and his administration in Iraq II, or to excuse the stupidity of that conflict, but it does set the whole thing in context when one considers the apathy and inability to take action on other matters by the UN, that he and they took the action they did rather than taking the thing through the "right procedure".

E

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RE: Darfur myths - 9/24/2006 1:35:19 PM   
Archer


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Status: offline 		From the article itself:

"in a country where 65 percent of the population practices Islam, the official state religion."

That leaves 35% who are not Muslim.

So your 100% figure is incorrect according to your own source.


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RE: Darfur myths - 9/24/2006 2:18:41 PM   
Level


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Status: offline 		Archer, if I have it right, the majority of christians and animists (sp?) live in the south of the country, where much bloodshed has occured, but the Darfur region is in the west, so perhaps most of the genocide victims there were muslims.

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Let go it's harder holding on
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RE: Darfur myths - 9/24/2006 3:06:30 PM   
meatcleaver


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Status: offline 		NG. Now I see where your anti-American stance comes from. How come though, when the USA does something you rant about it doing it purely for oil but when China does something for oil you say nothing? Well I can see why Sudan wants to keep China in its pocket, good old fashioned oil politics and a guardian angel on the Security Council. Screw the refugees, Sudan has a protector, let the refugees die and so decrease the surplus population. Your rants against the USA and UK would be more meaningful if you were equally critical of other countries. The lack of such criticism just exposes your prejudices.

Sudan doesn't want African Union peacekeepers there anyway but I guess they are more preferable than UN troops from developed countries that can actually protect the refugees and monitor what the government is actually doing. If I remember right, the rebels don't have planes so the bombing and straffing of the refugees has been down to the government.
 
Also, there are enough Americans here to correct me if I'm wrong but the pressure for the US to do something about Darfur doesn't come from the Bush administration and its eagerness for oil but from liberal American activists and humanitarian organisations. The more I think about your anti-American rants the more I realise they are all knee jerk.

Meanwhile, Sudan is China's fourth-biggest supplier of imported oil, and that relationship carries benefits. China, which holds veto power in the U.N. Security Council, has said it will stand by Sudan against U.S. efforts to slap sanctions on the country and in the battle to force Sudan to replace the African Union peacekeepers with a larger U.N. presence. China has built highways and factories in Khartoum, even erecting the Friendship Conference Hall, the city's largest public meeting place.


< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 9/24/2006 3:32:39 PM >

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RE: Darfur myths - 9/24/2006 3:28:56 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Also, you didn't read the part on so-called Arab/Black "divisions". They are all black in Darfur and they are all Muslims (so not sure where you're going with your "muslim arabized blacks" statement suggesting only one side is Muslim and black.

No it doesn't. It's what is says it is, black Africans that have assimilated Arabic culture and so differentiate them from other black Africans or 'animists' as they were delightfully called in the article.

 
 




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RE: Darfur myths - 9/24/2006 6:13:08 PM   
popeye1250


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Whoever is persecuting whom, for whatever reason, wherever they are and whatever means they use, its wrong.

That the UN is seemingly doing nothing about this situation is unsurprising, since such inactivity has a good precedent in that organisation, as does the handwringing that will ensue once the persecution is complete.

But we shouldnt blame the UN. The whole thing was set up for an entirely different reason after all, as can be seen by the membership of the security council. But we can blame the constituent countries - so few of which will step up to the mark when the chips are down, and back up their fine words with troops and/or funding for anything.

No wonder the Americans are sick of the UN, being ever expected to do something, whilst the rest sit and watch and snipe from the sidelines at how they do it. Very few others will contribute, and when they do they are accused along with the Americans of mishandling the situation. Of course those who do not take part did not mishandle the situation - because they chose to do nothing. 

This of course is not to endorse in any way, the sidestepping of  the UN by Bush and his administration in Iraq II, or to excuse the stupidity of that conflict, but it does set the whole thing in context when one considers the apathy and inability to take action on other matters by the UN, that he and they took the action they did rather than taking the thing through the "right procedure".

E


Lady, more than 80% of the American People want out of the "U.N."
Hopefully, when Bush goes we'll have a President who will get us out of it.
As for Darfur it has nothing to do with the U.S.
Let African countries handle it.

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RE: Darfur myths - 9/24/2006 7:45:24 PM   
Dtesmoac


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Status: offline 		Popeye - the League of nations at the end of WWI was the idea of the US. Unfortunately the US eventually did not join despite at that time being the largest industrial nation and holding the majority of the worlds wealth and investment capital. Result was that the League was unable to operate as a global policeman. Net result Charlie Chaplin look a like plus Japanese, Soviet and Italian expansion set of WWII.
Do the 80% who wish to leave base their decision upon being tired of the constant critisism of the or because they understand the implication of no UN?


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RE: Darfur myths - 9/24/2006 9:26:04 PM   
maybemaybenot


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Joined: 9/22/2005
Status: offline 		Darfur has become the * en vogue * topic  of late. Every one is hopping on the bandwagon on all sides and it is now becoming politicized.
A genocide  and  chattel enslavement has been going on in the Sudan for 20 years. In the last 20+ years  an ethinic cleansing of Christians to the tune of 2 million plus has been ongoing in the Sudan. Enslavement of Christians in the South, taken North by Muslim Captors/Masters is probably in the millions also.
Now that this ethnic cleansing has expanded outside the Christian population, all kinds of
" activists " are getting there knickers in a wad. Pointing and waving fingers like school children. Where were all these concerned voices 15 years ago ?
Every April since 1992, I have lectured on the slavery and ethnic cleansing at an Anti Slavery Rally on Boston Common. Along with actual refugees and former slaves from the Sudan and International Activists. Up until a few years ago, we spoke to maybe 100 people.

It genuinly irritates me that Darfur is held up as an single area of Sudan that needs help. I would venture to guess that most people who have become so fashionably concerned with Darfur have little knowledge of the history of how this all evolved.
Two years ago a former slave in the Sudan, gathered before the UN with 400 others to condem the UN and Koffi Annan for the lack of support and aid. Yes, two years ago, only 400 people were willing to stand publically and be outraged at the * world * turning a blind eye. In 2000, the same former slave stood before the US Congress to give his testimony of the atrocities occuring in the Sudan. It brought no awareness to the subject, let alone action.

Don't get me wrong... I am happy that this has FINALLY been brought to the forefront, but as someone who has beaten their head for years, it is irritating that the entire focus is on Dafur. Still no one is concerned with the ongoing enslavement and genocide of the Sudanese in the South, the gang rapes and murders of mothers and daughters, young and old. When the atrocites were being solely committed on the Southern Sudanese, predominantly Dinkas, no one cared.

Here is my prediction: In the next 10 years or so, you will all begin to hear of a similar situation in an African country called Mauritania.  It will be equally * en vogue * to hop on that bandwagon, yet the song remains the same.... currently and for 20 ish years a similar condition has existed.

For those who would like a brief history of why and how the situation in the Sudan and Dafur has come to be here is a very good link:
http://www.iabolish.org/slavery_today/in_depth/sudan-genocide.html

An activists story < 2000>:
http://www.lnsart.com/Sudan%20Slave%20Story.htm

The former slave I mentioned is Francis Bok.. he wrote a compelling biography of his life called Escape from Slavery.. an amazing young man whom I have had the honor of sharing a podium with. And I do mean honor I am humbled by him and others like him.

It's the politicalization of the subject that pisses me off. 20+ years of turning a deaf ear falls on all political affiliations. No one is without sin.

                   mbmbn

                                    

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RE: Darfur myths - 9/24/2006 9:28:19 PM   
popeye1250


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From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		Dtes, as for the 80% of Americans who want to get out of the "U.N." I  can't speak for them but I could fill 3 or 4 pages in here as to why the U.S. should get out of it.
Just the fact that the govt. "knows" that the American People want out of the "U.N." but does nothing tells me that the government is not LISTENING to the American People!
We need to take back our country and we will never do that by continuing to put Democrats and Republicans into elected office.

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RE: Darfur myths - 9/24/2006 10:17:23 PM   
maybemaybenot


Posts: 2817
Joined: 9/22/2005
Status: offline 		NorthernGent:
I have re read your link a few times and a couple of things stand out.

The link talks about China and oil.. why did that article leave out Canada, UK, Austrailia, France, Indonesia and others involvement in the oil industry which has " backed" the killings and enslavement in the Sudan. Agreed, that some of these countries  in the last two years have stopped participating, but for many years, with full knowledge of what was happening they continued to fund the killings. This was not due to ingnorance, but to turning a blind eye.  China does not stand alone, altho it certainly is currently the most caustic. As  I said, no one is with out sin.

The link credits Colin Powell with the the " genocide label". Years before him, there were many Congressman, MPs and other officials and activists who labeld it an ethnic cleansing/genocide. I wonder what the methodical eradication of 2-2 1/2 million people should be called. Anyone who has chosen to have interest in the Sudan/Dafur, should be thanking Colin Powell. Until he spoke... few were listening.

                                       mbmbn

< Message edited by maybemaybenot -- 9/24/2006 10:20:40 PM >

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RE: Darfur myths - 9/25/2006 12:01:06 AM   
Kedicat


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quote:

ORIGINAL: maybemaybenot

NorthernGent:
I have re read your link a few times and a couple of things stand out.

The link talks about China and oil.. why did that article leave out Canada, UK, Austrailia, France, Indonesia and others involvement in the oil industry which has " backed" the killings and enslavement in the Sudan. Agreed, that some of these countries  in the last two years have stopped participating, but for many years, with full knowledge of what was happening they continued to fund the killings. This was not due to ingnorance, but to turning a blind eye.  China does not stand alone, altho it certainly is currently the most caustic. As  I said, no one is with out sin.

The link credits Colin Powell with the the " genocide label". Years before him, there were many Congressman, MPs and other officials and activists who labeld it an ethnic cleansing/genocide. I wonder what the methodical eradication of 2-2 1/2 million people should be called. Anyone who has chosen to have interest in the Sudan/Dafur, should be thanking Colin Powell. Until he spoke... few were listening.

                                      mbmbn


It's nice to see this thread bring up more of the messes in Africa.
I'm glad the Canadian companies finally got out of it. ( I wonder just how distant they really are ).
And glad to see that some other countries are getting their mention as bad guys. From my other posts it seems I am only ever bitching about the US. But those threads tend to be about US involved situations. I try to add a sentance now and then to remind the US is not the only one using dirty deeds.

It also comes down to the governments and people in those countries. The governments are often corrupt, or weak and ripe to be used to rape their own country and people. Often if the right folks are being slaughtered ( your political opponents support block ) a blind eye is turned to it, if not active support of it.

I don't completely blame the bandwagoners. People get exhausted. So many things never get solved. Just drag on forever. People give up on trying to change it and keep it an issue. They rest a bit, regain their spirit and try again. Maybe the same cause, maybe a new one that might get some attention before it too turns to unnoticed background noise.

Look for China to be more involved in these things, as they fight for their share of the energy security pie. And Russia to be more of a power broker with their large reserves of energy.

Interesting and dark times ahead.

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RE: Darfur myths - 9/25/2006 1:13:57 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Level,

They are all Muslims in Darfur. 100% fact. I have had a look at your article and can't see where it actually suggests otherwise. Feel free to cut and paste it.


I accept this fact but this fact is pretty irrelevent to why you started this thread. In the thread that prompted you to post this (deny it if you want) you said that the USA and UK were the reason the Sudanese goverment didn't thrust the UN. I have seen and read nothing to suggest your assertion to be true but read enough to more than suggest that the Sudenese government are materially supporting the Janjaweed in systematically targeting the Fur, Zagawa and another group (who name fails me with out going back to the sources). That is where the genocide comes in and that is why the Sudanese government don't want UN peacekeepers in. It is convenient for them, like it is for Mugahbi in Zimbabwe to accuse the west of neo-colonialism.

Many of the people in the line of fire, while Islamic, maintain many of their tribal traditions which is why they are looked down on by many Arabized blacks in the east of the country.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 9/25/2006 1:21:33 AM >

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RE: Darfur myths - 9/25/2006 4:20:39 AM   
Level


Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline 		Thanks for weighing in, mbmbn. I know your involvment in the issue gives you some insights that others (such as myself) don't have.
 


_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

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