RE: the accidental dominant

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Laura -> RE: the accidental dominant (1/18/2005 3:39:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: topcat As I was arguing my case for a particular couple we were in disagreement about, I pointed out the 'dom' behavoirs I was seeing in him. Some of the vague sort of 'tells' that I pointed out werethat he was sitting in the stronger place at their table, his haveing directed her to her seat, that they walked in with his hand on the small of her back, sort of sterring her through the room, the way he'd wait untill she was looking at him before speaking, the way that he did the ordering and interacted with the server. I think a few of those could be argued as very sub behaviours for a man to his Dom. Most of all that he waited for her to look at him before speaking. There is so much said with body language and who speaks first. I see a ton of people at my work. I play the D/s game too when I'm tired of dealing with people in general. I think the person who makes eye contact and begins a conversation is more likely to be Dom. Also, if they keep eye contact while speaking. Commanding the conversation rather than just taking part. Also, the hand on the back works as a connection to both of them. I really like finding new ways to be Dominant, this is something I would do. But, I really like being touched, I don't see that as a sub thing. He can touch me, hold me even, but I'm still the one leading. Thanks for this post. I really enjoyed the ideas and opinions. I kind of missed you guys. :)

realophelia -> RE: the accidental dominant (1/18/2005 9:14:47 PM)
quote: Are there behaviors, traits (tells?) that you feel grow from your 'dominant' or 'submissive' nature, or do you see these things in others you know? I'm pretty agreeable in most situations and am good at calming and caring for people. I am also quiet and reserved and follow instruction well. I know that a lot of people have those character traits and are not submissive, but for me it seems to all be part of the same package. ~Ophelia

LadyAngelika -> RE: the accidental dominant (1/19/2005 4:50:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Laura Also, the hand on the back works as a connection to both of them. I really like finding new ways to be Dominant, this is something I would do. But, I really like being touched, I don't see that as a sub thing. He can touch me, hold me even, but I'm still the one leading. Interesting that you mention this as I was having a conversation via chat about this just last night with a sub boy. (Is my life being broadcasted on a Webcam somewhere? Ha!) I have a penchant for virile, desirous and passionate men. I have no use for an emasculated sub who sniffles for a little attention. The same goes for the women I date. In fact, my last female sub often gets mistaken for a Domme when she goes to fetish parties. There is a certain playful forwardness, once the power dynamics have been established, that I really appreciate. I really dispise always making the first move. I love a submissive to walk up behind me, press his body against mine, kiss the back of my neck and whisper in my ear how much he wants to serve me. To quote Miss Hilton, “That’s so hot!”. quote: ORIGINAL: Laura I think a few of those could be argued as very sub behaviours for a man to his Dom. Our perceptions can be deceiving, yes! I often say a good sub boy is like a guard dog. He is stands proud, is impressive and intimidating somewhat to others, ensures my safety and comfort, is alert and ready for anything, is at my feet and obeying my every command. quote: ORIGINAL: Laura Thanks for this post. I really enjoyed the ideas and opinions. I kind of missed you guys. :) Ditto. I think I missed you all a little too. - LA

happypervert -> RE: the accidental dominant (1/19/2005 8:39:59 AM)
quote: The “socially dominant” are leaders in business, social gatherings, and just have a general aura of strength that draws a lot of people to them. The academics who study leadership and power would refer to these folks as "charismatics". That type of leadership has it's place, but there are other leadership styles that work in other circumstances -- such as the organizational politician who rises through the ranks by not making waves. The charismatic style works best when there is a lot of uncertainty and change, so you would be more likely to find them in Sillicon Valley for example; the politician might likely be found in a utility or other monopoly or oligopoly. I'm not sure that these "tells" are reliable indicators for dominance or submission because they can just be learned behaviors or courtesies. Furthermore, if one is behaving as expected, then are apparently dominant tells actually signs of submitting to social expectations? Then as Angelika notes above, she likes her boys to make aggressive moves that could be interpreted by casual observers as being dominant. Speaking for myself, I am somewhat socially inept and aloof, so that could disqualify me from being classified as a leader or exhibiting any of the tells. If we equate submissive with a follower, then a leader is someone who isn't following. So I might call myself a leader because I am quite content to go off the beaten path where everyone else is going; however, I usually don't care if anyone is following so maybe instead of leading I'm just stumbling off into the wilderness. So to cut through all this rambling, to answer the question I'll say I have no idea about tells but trying to spot them sounds like a game that would amuse a voyeur like me. Oh, and nice to see Lady Angelika back too!

LadyAngelika -> RE: the accidental dominant (1/19/2005 7:19:17 PM)
quote: I'm not sure that these "tells" are reliable indicators for dominance or submission because they can just be learned behaviors or courtesies. What HP said! quote: Oh, and nice to see Lady Angelika back too! Like I could stay away much longer ;) - LA

bottominwa -> RE: the accidental dominant (1/19/2005 8:59:03 PM)
This girl is going to add her vote to the you never know what you are seeing pile....more often then not she has seen the most socially "aloof" or surveyant types to be the most strongly Dominant men....and mnay like herself who are outwardly as stated previoulsy "charismatic" personality types are in the right circumstances witha comparable Dom , extremely submissive...now on for some weirdo quinky dink Dom behaviour she has noticed.... In her previous life this girl was a classicaly trained actor...so people watching is her middle name.... Many ofcourse nto all no over gneralization here but many of the superficiously physical mannerisms of male Dominants she has known and she is around mirror those of other animals. she won't talk about Dominant females because in ehr life she doesn't associate with any. so things she has noticed: Many Dominant men: Will subconciously, sniff when they enter a room or more humorous when a debate is going on between two of Them They will often flare their nostrils as if smelling for the level of testosterone in the other... Touch things when They enter a house....again subconcioulsy, brush up against things, rub the couch as They sit etc....as if "marking" the area. Set their jaw when They see things They do not like or hear something They do not like, if as in dogs preparing to bite. Stand more erect as if to be taller than whomever They are standing near. Or if shrot in stature stand with chest out to appear larger hence more virile like a blowfish...lol Anyhooha..these are justa few of the physical quinky dinks she has noticed that tend to echo the idea W/we are much more animal then etheral being..lol. sabrina King House of King

LadyAngelika -> RE: the accidental dominant (1/20/2005 4:53:43 AM)
quote: Many Dominant men: Will subconciously, sniff when they enter a room or more humorous when a debate is going on between two of Them They will often flare their nostrils as if smelling for the level of testosterone in the other... Touch things when They enter a house....again subconcioulsy, brush up against things, rub the couch as They sit etc....as if "marking" the area. Set their jaw when They see things They do not like or hear something They do not like, if as in dogs preparing to bite. Stand more erect as if to be taller than whomever They are standing near. Or if shrot in stature stand with chest out to appear larger hence more virile like a blowfish...lol I hope we dominant women don't look as silly! - LA

littlebuttercup -> RE: the accidental dominant (2/14/2005 9:24:04 AM)
quote: In fact, my last female sub often gets mistaken for a Domme when she goes to fetish parties. i have had this happen to me in the past when i was still dating. i was mistaken for Dominant on many occasions by "vanilla" people because i was very sexually aggressive. i would meet men and make my intentions clear and they assumed it was a Dominant trait, when in fact i was only stating what i wanted clearly instead of playing games.

GentleLady -> RE: the accidental dominant (2/15/2005 3:45:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika Our perceptions can be deceiving, yes! I often say a good sub boy is like a guard dog. He is stands proud, is impressive and intimidating somewhat to others, ensures my safety and comfort, is alert and ready for anything, is at my feet and obeying my every command. I agree completely with that statement. I have a favourite way of walking through malls or department stores with My submissive. I tell him where I am heading and then drop back so I can walk a pace or two behind him on the left. I grap the back of his shirt and follow while he deals with avoiding obstacles and getting us there. I get to window shop without tripping over things or banging into people. Plus when I spot something and zig to look at it he knows immediately because he gets tugged and stops. It probably looks as odd as heck but it suits the way I shop because I love to browse.

MistressDREAD -> RE: the accidental dominant (2/15/2005 4:28:01 PM)
quote: accidental dominant you're domming me, aren't you?! Shit- you do everyone of those things when we hang out!" "well, uh-no. Not on purpose- but I guess I do do that..." - much of it is shear reflex, and really, justs come down to good albeit formal manners- This is an interesting post topcat. Mannerizums and manners in general do seem to get in the way of Alternate Lifestyle ways and it is very hard to let go of those vanilla "reflexes" as you call them and replace the formitive manners with ones that are more suited to Alternate Lifestyle Living. Times a changin and what you use to look at as a simple act as a man or a woman for that matter has now become the act of a Dominant under the same perceptions if done by a person with in the lifestyle. I wouldent worry about it topcat as it is simply a small part of your total package of diversity that is ohhhh so appealing to the masses.....~wink~

songbird26 -> RE: the accidental dominant (2/15/2005 5:33:08 PM)
Ooh, good topic. I adore body language studies. As a horse trainer I use it every day: horses are big and unpredictable and don't use their voices, and if you can't read the tilt of an ear or the angle of a head or the set of a leg, hoo boy, you can get yourself into some trouble. And it translates to people, too. I myself have extremely 'dominant' body language and mannerisms, too, so I must excuse myself from this study on the theory that I might blow the curve. grin I've noticed, in my time in bdsm, that many people who tend to self-identify as submissives tend to walk with their shoulders a little bit up around their ears, and their eyes mostly down (of course, this also applies to many naturally shy people who aren't kinky at all, but there you have it!). Their bodies tend to slant a little away from square and their mannerisms seek approval (constant evaluating glances at the face of the person they're talking to, fussing with hair or dress, tone of voice lifted in question even at the end of statements). And dominant people generally have a very erect posture, eyes up and forward, strong eye contact, assertive set of shoulders and chins, and hips turned square to whatever is holding their attention. Firm handshake. I've never met a dominant worth his or her salt who had a dead-fish handshake. Oddly, however, most of the 'submissive' men who I dated in vanillaland were the ones who were most assiduous about the hand at the waist, the holding of the chair, and so on. I've seen it in dominant men as well, though, as an example of more formal manners, so I don't really link that behavior to either dominant or submissive. For me, it's all body language, as opposed to actions. And the "spot the dom and sub!" really IS a fun game! I especially like doing it with Hollywood actors.

ProtagonistLily -> RE: the accidental dominant (2/15/2005 6:11:47 PM)
quote: And the "spot the dom and sub!" really IS a fun game! I especially like doing it with Hollywood actors I particularly enjoy this game myself. Owen Wilson would look yum*uckingola in a leather harness, at my feet, with the word please just about to pluck from the end of his tongue. yeah baby... Lily

Goodmix -> RE: the accidental dominant (2/16/2005 7:01:58 AM)
i think the behavior You are talking about is just plain class. i think everyone has both sides of the coin, and whichever is the more predominate ~ the dominate or the submissive ~ side makes us more subjective towards that side. Besides the fact the gentleman “had a stronger place at the table” (again that is subjective) the situation might be viewed him taking care of his Mistress. i think the behavior of a female is much more of an indicator. Is she taking care of His needs? (submissive) Is She instructing him? (Dominate) In a social situation (without my kids) it is easy to tell i am submissive. (with my kids you would not in your wildest dreams think i was a sub) i am lucky that society allows me the luxury of being able to tend to Him without raising any eyebrows. Dominate women who are outwardly dominate are not afforded the same luxury. i even read something one time that said, “If a man takes a position of strength he is being a man, but if a woman does it, she is a bitch” (very loosy paraphrased, but you get the point) and i often get that response when i am not in "sub mode" But i believe the question was; do i have behaviors that come from my being submissive ~ absolutely ! i get off on the having someone strong enough to take control. It isn’t easy to find someone capable and worthy enough to relinquish myself to. i am talking about more than the physical aspect of being submissive, but that physical aspect is important as well. During my 15 year marriage ~ we were not in the lifestyle ~ i behaved in a submissive way to him , but controlled him sexually….and i wonder why i was never able to achieve an orgasm with him. After realizing myself, i was able to overcome (no pun intended) that obstacle. The important part of that is that after i was allowed to be who i really am, allowing my submissive “behavior” / tendencies to shine through, i was happier.

topcat -> RE: the accidental dominant (2/16/2005 8:11:19 AM)
quote: (with my kids you would not in your wildest dreams think i was a sub) Midear 'Mix- Actually, when I see a Mom wrangling kids around, staying on top of things etc., The first thought I have is 'Now SHE would really like to spend a night chained up under someones hand!' <g>. And as much as I do play the game- I think it is a poor indictator of actual tendancies- most of the more socially asertive people I know are in fact on the submissive side in their relationships. And of course, I assume everyone is submissive till declared otherwise<g>. Stay warm, Lawrence

gonadsNstryfe -> RE: the accidental dominant (2/16/2005 8:23:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: proudsub quote: As we talked, we drifted onto a game of 'spot the power exchange tendancies' , looking around the bar and calling 'dom' or 'sub' as we observed the interactions around us. I tend to do that a lot now when out in public too, it's fun. Also whenever i see a choker necklace i wonder if it is a collar. I think some of what you mentoned is just good manners in the old fashioned sense, but could be construed as domly. One thing i notice a lot beause i have always done it, is women who walk with their eyes down.[:)] Fuck that, I let my kajira walk with eyes up so people can see the fire that burns within them ! and yeah I often make comments about collars and chokers. some people I don't bother, because it is plainly visable that they are just necklaces. As to the "Person or Dom" I have debated this also and have come to understand that people are more importnat than a role, and the only exception is if you are meeting for a "PROFESSIONAL SESSION". then I would not want to know the person, just make them worship the dirt I stand on [:D]

songbird26 -> RE: the accidental dominant (2/16/2005 9:33:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ProtagonistLily I particularly enjoy this game myself. Owen Wilson would look yum*uckingola in a leather harness, at my feet, with the word please just about to pluck from the end of his tongue. yeah baby... Lily Russell Crowe could turn me over his knee any time, oh my yes. hee!

topcat -> RE: the accidental dominant (2/16/2005 1:06:12 PM)
quote: I let my kajira walk with eyes up so people can see the fire that burns within them ! M. Darth- Amen, brother! I want to her to be visibly the second strongest person in the room- and if that that keeps me on my toes, I am even more pleased by it! Stay warm, Lawrence

pandoravampire -> RE: the accidental dominant (2/16/2005 1:37:05 PM)
Ive taught several courses on social skills that enable people to hide their true feelings. To appear assertive when feeling submissive etc. Many companies send employees of management roles onto such courses. Sales persons are a good example. These learnt traits are practiced over and over until second nature, but it does not change what is inside. Im 6 foot tall, i stroll along, head held high, im confident, i attract attention a lot, be that walking down the street or entering a room. But would you judge me a submissive? Nope! but you'd be wrong. what about those of us that are natural alpha personalities, but choose the sub side of life with the partner? Unless seen in the company of that partner, you'd never guess. I also have a couple friend, where i was incredulous that he was the Dom and not the sub. What occurs behind closed doors, does not always show, but its bloody entertaining to guess -for us voyeurs of the world.

aliljaded1 -> RE: the accidental dominant (2/16/2005 2:07:33 PM)
i tend to think that people are naturally "Alpha". i also think that these folks (M/F) do not need to be identified as such they just are . its what makes them so damn attractive to me.

topcat -> RE: the accidental dominant (2/16/2005 2:25:56 PM)
quote: i tend to think that people are naturally "Alpha". My dear Ali- I wonder about the 'natural' part. I'd like to think my ability to take the lead, to steer a group, to work a room, whatever, seems natural, but it mostly it was learned. some by the strong examples in my life, some in classrooms, or in Dojos, some in barracks. There are definatly times it just happens, but often I'll exhibit a behavior deliberatly, for a desired result. Hmmm. and often I'll quash an instintive posture, as well- there is often no point in a pissing match, and the real skill is letting it go without feeling one has to be on top all the time... Stay warm, Lawrence

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