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RE: The Caitlyn Rebuttal - 9/26/2006 11:19:43 AM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline 		Funny ... all I see you saying, is that you are unwilling to apologize when you misquote someone.

(in reply to Chaingang)
Profile   Post #: 61
RE: The Caitlyn Rebuttal - 9/26/2006 11:27:27 AM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline 		Both our countries had their own civil war ... all the chaos leading up to it, and all the chaos after.
 
So ... if your case is that Iraq is a failure because there was "almost" a civil war, you are going to have to rething that one, in my view. Both of our countries became must stronger and more united after our own civil wars.

Not there "was" - there is.

Also, you are basing this particular argument on what will happen after the carnage and, copying your own style, this certainly is venturing into the unknown and is not credible.

My case is that the invasion led to this carnage and a by-product of this is civil war.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to Chaingang)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: The Caitlyn Rebuttal - 9/26/2006 11:44:08 AM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
My case is that the invasion led to this carnage and a by-product of this is civil war.


That is certainly possible ... even probable in fact. Of what value is that though? The invasion has already happened.
 
I don't know how plainly I can say it other than what I sent to the original poster offline. I never once said that anyone and everyone isn't entitled to their own position and/or opinion ... even criticism. What I said was, that continual criticism without offering solutions is of very limited value, in my opinion.
 
You are abolutely within your rights to spend twenty-four hours a day criticizing, if that's what you want to do. I'm within my rights to think that your criticism isn't going to solve one single problem we have in Iraq.

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: The Caitlyn Rebuttal - 9/26/2006 11:51:05 AM   
philosophy


Posts: 5284
Joined: 2/15/2004
Status: offline 		"....(of Iraq descending into civil war as a result of US/UK attacks).....Of what value is that though? The invasion has already happened.

...........is there no value in pointing out a bad guide? No value in pointing out when someone is giving bad advice? Even if you can't see all the consequences we have to call it as we see it. Criticising the current foreign policy of both the US and the UK is wholly legitimate...and for no reason connected to Iraq. Look at these decision makers and decide if you want to trust them again, when or if they say 'that Iran supports terrorism, let's invade them'.  If you don't make a judgement based on experience what do you make a judgement on? Trust perhaps...in which case then do you really trust them?

(in reply to caitlyn)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: The Caitlyn Rebuttal - 9/26/2006 1:00:46 PM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy
Look at these decision makers and decide if you want to trust them again, when or if they say 'that Iran supports terrorism, let's invade them'.  If you don't make a judgement based on experience what do you make a judgement on? Trust perhaps...in which case then do you really trust them?


You have already made your decision, and so have I.
 
I'm not planning on supporting any rush to war people. I'm also not planning on supporting anyone that has no platform other than bashing the rush to war people. I don't think the bashers, are any better than the people they are bashing. Neither one has any answers ... and that is what we need right now.

(in reply to philosophy)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: The Caitlyn Rebuttal - 9/26/2006 6:50:39 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		The U.N.'s plan--since you brought it up--looks pretty good right now, doesn't it?  The U.N.'s plan was to continue with the regime of weapons inspections.  That was ridiculed at the time by the people who were misrepresenting the intelligence to make our war with Iraq seem inevitable.  I have to wonder--are those very intelligent people who now think war with Iran is inevitable the same people who thought was with Iraq was inevitable?

MY view, by the way, has been the same for about two years now: get out now and leave all the shit to the U.N.  All along, people have said that was stupid, unrealistic--the goddamned Islamofascists will just take over!  Well, I haven't heard too many better ideas.  Have you?  If we can't stay, we have to leave.

Anyway, at least you admitted in the final paragraph that YOU don't have much of a plan either.  "Keep on doing what we're doing till we elect someone else who might have a better idea" isn't a plan.  If that's really how you feel, fair enough.  But then drop the pretense that people who criticize without suggesting alternatives aren't saying anything useful.  What are YOU saying that's useful?

quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

The United Nations, in my view, is a "path of least resistance" based organization, run by the same sort of people that allowed the Second World War to escallate into a catastrophic event. I do distrust the motives of the Bush Administration, but equally distrust the motives of the United Nations. I think sending more troops will end up widening the war. That may be inevitable ... I know some pretty smart people that feel that we are on a collision course to war in Iran, and that nobody is going to be able to stop it.
 
To me, the only thing that is left, is to wait until the next election and hope we can elect someone that has a better plan. Certainly if things stay the same, you would hope that this would be an important issue for the next administration.

(in reply to caitlyn)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: The Caitlyn Rebuttal - 9/26/2006 7:23:48 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

My son is now eleven years old, and I seriously worry about the newly introduced draft in 2013 that will see him sent to die in Iraq, in a war that some idiot created and that no one here wanted. I wish I could share your optimism, I really do.
E


Is this for real or is it simply a fear? I could imagine the arsehole Blair doing this.


Hello A/all,

I have had this conversation with people of late.  I have two draft age children RIGHT NOW, but considering the current political climate in the United States, I am not overly worried about them going to fight the Neo-Cons idiocy.

Anybody in office knows that even suggesting a draft will be committing political seppuku.  The only reason Monkeyboy does is he is un-re-electable, and his cabinet are not elected.

Half of congress will be losing their jobs for supporting Bush invading Iraq, do people really think they are going to suggest a draft in an election year to further insure the death of their political career?

Bush cannot even get Congress to approve the money needed to continue (read: pay for the US military) his silly debacle in Iraq.

I read a bumper sticker that said "The last time people listened to a bush, they wandered around lost in the desert for 40 years."

So true.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: The Caitlyn Rebuttal - 9/26/2006 10:13:53 PM   
luckydog1


Posts: 2736
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline 		Sinergy...When did Bush sugest a draft?  Two Congressional Democrats did a few years ago.

(in reply to Sinergy)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: The Caitlyn Rebuttal - 9/26/2006 10:49:53 PM   
CrappyDom


Posts: 1883
Joined: 4/11/2006
From: Sacramento
Status: offline
quote:

Do I believe they know something we don't?


I sure as hell hope the President of the most powerful nation on earth knows something I don't know.

quote:

Do I believe they know something we don't? I have no idea, but am willing to at least consider it.


Caitlyn, look up the definition of "consider".  I have considered this greatly and upon thoughtful consideration it seems that if they do know anthing they are too stupid to act upon it.


quote:

Do I believe they know something we don't? I have no idea, but am willing to at least consider it. Apparently that makes me the devil in some people's mind.


No, you are not the devil in my mind, just someone doing the dirty work of supressing and manipulating opinion.


quote:

Apparently, to be a good soldier, you are supposed to take a stance, and be completely unwilling to accept anything other than your own stance.


Apparantly, you have no clue about how we have come to our conclusions.  I would welcome some signs of thoughtful discusion, intelligent decisions, insightful thinking, or even a slightly less self destructive path.

I supported Bush's invasion of Afghanistan along with nearly every liberal and Democrat.  I longed for the day Osama's head would be on a pike.  Then in the middle of the war on terror and the hunt for Osama bin Laudin, these crazies decide to invade a country that had nothing to do with 9/11, Osama, or Al Queda.  They did it based on lies they created or knew about.  The manipulated the press through people like Judy Miller, they exposed valuable CIA assets like an agent in charge of watching nuclear proliferation issues in Iran.

Sure there could be some long range master plan behind this, perhaps it is an eloborate scheme to lull our enemies into making mistakes by making the United States look like it was run by jackasses and morons.  Perhaps you are right and that is their strategy, make one vast mistake after another until Osama surrenders. 

(in reply to caitlyn)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: The Caitlyn Rebuttal - 9/27/2006 5:00:20 AM   
philosophy


Posts: 5284
Joined: 2/15/2004
Status: offline 		"I have to wonder--are those very intelligent people who now think war with Iran is inevitable the same people who thought was with Iraq was inevitable?"

...thank you LAM for putting it more succinctly than i could........Caitlyn, please note this point carefully. As citizens in a democracy we have a duty to oversee our elected officials and criticise if necessary.......to reserve criticism of the current regimes in the UK and US is a bit like watching a serial killer, but declining to act because there may be a self defence justification that we're not aware of. It might, possibly, be true....but it's a bloody long shot and a stab in the dark...and in the meantime there are plenty of civilian populations that aren't sure whether they'll be the next people to find out just how hot American phosphor bombs are.

(in reply to CrappyDom)
Profile   Post #: 70
RE: The Caitlyn Rebuttal - 9/27/2006 5:12:45 AM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

"I have to wonder--are those very intelligent people who now think war with Iran is inevitable the same people who thought was with Iraq was inevitable?"

...thank you LAM for putting it more succinctly than i could........Caitlyn, please note this point carefully. As citizens in a democracy we have a duty to oversee our elected officials and criticise if necessary.......to reserve criticism of the current regimes in the UK and US is a bit like watching a serial killer, but declining to act because there may be a self defence justification that we're not aware of. It might, possibly, be true....but it's a bloody long shot and a stab in the dark...and in the meantime there are plenty of civilian populations that aren't sure whether they'll be the next people to find out just how hot American phosphor bombs are.



Now I see where you're going wrong Philosophy! You're confusing what it says on the tin, with what is actually inside the tin. The duty of the citizenry is to choose from two brightly coloured and detailed labels on the tins, and then swallow down what they find inside them and enjoy it, whatever discrepancy there might be between what the label said and what it contained. Even if was a can of worms that was chosen.

Hope this helps?

E

(in reply to philosophy)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: The Caitlyn Rebuttal - 9/27/2006 5:22:58 AM   
philosophy


Posts: 5284
Joined: 2/15/2004
Status: offline 		"The duty of the citizenry is to choose from two brightly coloured and detailed labels on the tins, and then swallow down what they find inside them and enjoy it, whatever discrepancy there might be between what the label said and what it contained."

...ah, what a pity LE......you're falling for the trap of despair. The greeks knew better, because even Pandora had hope left. We have exactly as much power as we use.

(in reply to LadyEllen)
Profile   Post #: 72
RE: The Caitlyn Rebuttal - 9/27/2006 5:35:52 AM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

"The duty of the citizenry is to choose from two brightly coloured and detailed labels on the tins, and then swallow down what they find inside them and enjoy it, whatever discrepancy there might be between what the label said and what it contained."

...ah, what a pity LE......you're falling for the trap of despair. The greeks knew better, because even Pandora had hope left. We have exactly as much power as we use.


I know. It comes from banging one's head against a brick wall for a while. I honestly dont see any difference whom we elect to be honest - the country is run by immovable public service unions and the money markets and the Murdoch press - who sits in Downing Street is pretty much a neutral factor it seems.

I wish we could have a national vision, and someone like you to run the place; someone who has known the bad sides of life and yet retains their optimism and idealism despite all the evils in the world, and has morality and good sense on their side too.

E

(in reply to philosophy)
Profile   Post #: 73
RE: The Caitlyn Rebuttal - 9/27/2006 5:43:57 AM   
philosophy


Posts: 5284
Joined: 2/15/2004
Status: offline 		"I honestly dont see any difference whom we elect to be honest - the country is run by immovable public service unions and the money markets and the Murdoch press - who sits in Downing Street is pretty much a neutral factor it seems."

........things do change, not always for the worse, but slowly. i have extremely optimistic hopes for the next generation, because they'll be the ones that have grown up with the internet and the digital revolution. i hope they'll find ways to communicate and exchange ideas that will never occur to those of us who still remember the days before mobile phones. Power ultimately lies with the group that tell us the most powerful stories.......the ones that can make the myths.......increasingly the internet takes that power away from the established media and gives it back to the people.

i am optimistic for the future.........and aware that our responsibility in the present is to do all we can to make that future happen. Think global, act local........think future, act now.  

(in reply to LadyEllen)
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RE: The Caitlyn Rebuttal - 9/27/2006 9:34:55 AM   
trannysub007


Posts: 105
Joined: 9/3/2006
Status: offline 		   Philosophy - i can definitely see that you know a lot more than i do about history, politics, etc. i must remember not to make sarcastic comments. i absolutely do not wish any harm on anyone. i do not think blowing up the middle east will solve anything. That's been going on there for sometime already, and hasn't made life there much better. i don't believe you (the generic you) can fight for peace.  War does not bring peace - unless it does. As i said, i really don't know much about it. All i do know is i fear for my children's future. There are vioient people right here in the neighborhood whom i have to protect my kids from, and then dealing with the government and how they are making a mess of things .... too much stress and drama.  i apologize that i was not clear enough about my bad solution just being a joke - and a bad joke at that.  Being sarcastic is my defense against the difficult people i come in contact with during my day to day life. It obviously does not translate well to message boards.    Peace.

(in reply to philosophy)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: The Caitlyn Rebuttal - 9/27/2006 9:56:21 AM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		Just noticed I made a typo in there ("was with Iraq" should be "war with Iraq," of course).

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

"I have to wonder--are those very intelligent people who now think war with Iran is inevitable the same people who thought was with Iraq was inevitable?"

...thank you LAM for putting it more succinctly than i could........

(in reply to philosophy)
Profile   Post #: 76
RE: The Caitlyn Rebuttal - 9/27/2006 4:33:58 PM   
philosophy


Posts: 5284
Joined: 2/15/2004
Status: offline 		"Being sarcastic is my defense against the difficult people i come in contact with during my day to day life. It obviously does not translate well to message boards.    Peace. "

..oh i dont know, seems a perfectly reasonable defence to me....... it often trips me up,  but thats my problem... :)

pob lwc

(in reply to Lordandmaster)
Profile   Post #: 77
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