RE: BDSM Definitions? (Full Version)

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ScooterTrash -> RE: BDSM Definitions? (10/1/2006 6:27:55 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SirLordTrainer

I recall those terms in the old vanilla days, these days she'd just add 'Sir' at the end of each!  LOL
LOL....well yeah...ha ha.




adaddysgirl -> RE: BDSM Definitions? (10/1/2006 6:52:43 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

adaddysgirl,
I can think of many reasons why a slave would ask for release or why there may be a dissolution of a Master/slave relationship...even after the slave submits once. Because we are people...and people change and are fallible. Just because you submit to a man today, there is no guarantee that he will be the same man 10 years from now. There is no guarantee that what works for both of you today will be what works then.



i understand exactly what you are saying here....and i agree with you!
 
But this is why i was saying that the slave submitting once is a crock because i realize there are a multitude of things that can change in any relationship, making it impossible for one of the partners to stay. 
 
As a sub, i ask a lot of questions of a prospective partner.  i want to know if this is someone i can realistically spend the rest of my life with (because that is what i am looking for).  Do we share similar goals?  Does he accept my limits?  Will he accept others that may arise later that i am not aware of right now?
 
i do this because i don't want it to be where every day is a negotiation because that's not what it's really about to me.  Yes, i am sure there will be those days, especially at first, but i don't go into it submitting day by day as that little blurb suggests.
 
When couples get married, they say for better or worse, til death do us part.  That sounds like a one time consent (perhaps not submission) to me.  But you are right....stuff happens.  People change.  A 'deal breaker' comes up and the couple must part....before death.
 
That is realistic in any relationship.  If twicehappy was with her Master 18 years and there was no deal breaker ever, then she is one lucky girl.  Who knows, maybe she (or another slave) might have stayed even under the circumstances you described in your post.  But i think that is the exception, not the rule.
 
In any event, i still don't see the usage of the slave submits once as a valid difference between subs and slaves (as i have seen it used in context in other threads).  i do think, however, that there is a happy medium somewhere there but i don't think i would be the one to find the best words for it.
 
Daddysgirl




mistoferin -> RE: BDSM Definitions? (10/1/2006 7:18:06 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy
But the idea that she is "insulting" and should be put out of everybody else's misery just seems a bit weird to me.  It is like a bunch of people got together, imprisoned her in Abu Graibh or Gitmo, and then convened a Kangaroo court to try her for the high crime of "she seems insulting to me"


Maybe you and I are reading different message boards...or our meanings of words really ARE vastly different. I have seen no suggestions that anyone be put out of their misery, nor have I seen any group convening to convict. This seems a bit melodramatic to me. Really....Kangaroo court?...Abu Graibh?....Gitmo....High Crimes? I wasn't aware that having an opinion could qualify for such. Here all along I was thinking this was just a message board where everyone is entitled to an opinion.




LadyHugs -> RE: BDSM Definitions? (10/1/2006 7:28:02 AM)

Dear ScooterTrash, Ladies and Gentlemen;
 
You wrote;
quote:

ORIGINAL: ScooterTrash

"Words and their meanings are to qualities what numbers are to quantities" OWEN BARFIELD
 
(I gathered this info from multiple sources and some of it paraphrased, so citing a specific source is not possible, but this information is readily available)
 
The coexistence of several meanings in one word, which is quite common is called polysemy. Many words develop a whole family of meanings, each new meaning often forming yet another starting point for more. The existence of polysemy has obvious dangers: it can make language rather slippery, so that in the course of a piece of reasoning we may be led astray because a key word in our argument is used with different meanings in different places. A homonym is a word that has the same pronunciation and spelling as another word, but a different meaning while heteronyms are words that are spelled the same but have different pronunciations and meanings.
 
This of course does not necessarily justify or validate the differences of words &/or their meanings or interpretations in the BDSM lifestyle, but the concept of multiple meanings between different groups, locations, etc. does exist. Therefore, the words slave, submissive, dominant, etc. having a different meaning in the BDSM lifestyle versus the vanilla lifestyle is an acceptable phenomina.
 
This is why there are spirited debates and or argue over words, labels or terms used.  And, why those new to the lifestyle, BDSM or such; are treated unkindly, as they have not had the time or practice to use terms that we (in BDSM community sense) have learned long ago and now has become our first language, rather than the second language as a novice.


As a tongue in cheek example (I snagged this from another forum board, so I can’t really “credit” anyone)
 
Words Women Use and Their Meanings

FINE
This is the word women use to end an argument when they are right and
you need to shut up.

FIVE MINUTES
If she is getting dressed, this is half an hour. Five minutes is only five minutes if you have just been given 5 more minutes to watch the game before helping around the house.

NOTHING
This is the calm before the storm. This means "something," and you should be on your toes. Arguments that begin with 'Nothing' usually end in "Fine"

GO AHEAD
This is a dare, not permission. Don't do it.

LOUD SIGH
This is not actually a word, but is a non-verbal statement often misunderstood by men. A "Loud Sigh" means she thinks you are an idiot and wonders why she is wasting her time standing here and arguing with you
over "Nothing"
 
THAT'S OKAY
This is one of the most dangerous statements that a woman can make to a man. "That's Okay" means that she wants to think long and hard before deciding how and when you will pay for your mistake.

THANKS
A woman is thanking you. Do not question it or faint. Just say you're welcome.

[:D]



I love the woman/word meaning translation.  It has floated about, not exactly sure of the origins but, if my memory serves me correctly, it was George Carlin the comedian or Paul Lynn the comedian.
 
I also wanted to add, that it serves to the best interest of all concerns, as to acknowledge that some words carry multiple meanings.  It is to everybody's advantage as to carry the meaning or define the intent of the word(s) used, as not to have people assume the meaning.   In my mind's eye, this causes one to 'imply' something that actually isn't; yet the intent or spirit of intent is only known to the author.  I know it can be done to create a vague insult or have people jump to conclusions.  But, it baits and manipulates others.
(Just a thought).
 
As I have mentioned before but, do so for those who haven't seen me post much; I came from a period of time where the only terms used was Master, Mistress and slave.  Dominant was not a title but a state of behavior, submissive was not a title but a state of behavior.  But, just like the new age titles/labels of TOP,bottom; Dom/Domme, submissive--it serves a purpose when people coined it to a specific degree of a commitment/relationship that wasn't so rigid as Master-slave by the standards of the time.  And, I think that is where so many individuals hit a snag and have undue stress over it all.
 
In my salad days, we borrowed from a more rigid practice.  Today, it has lost its meaning to those from that time.  But, to 'master' anything, which was the mindset of the times; was to refine and improve non-stop.  Slaves of my time, for the most time were the major supports, taking away the duties of mundane chores, as to free the Master to work on refining himself/herself.  I perhaps see it much like a body builder, who has a supporting partner.  That partner, takes up a lot of his/her duties so they can lift weights and train and commit to that endevour.  They have their own rewards between themselves.  So, we (in general terms) have our rewards when we do what is in our own hearts, we feel is right for ourselves (in general terms).  When we partner, we do things for ourself first and then for the other.
 
As far as the terms of Master-slave, the slave submits once is often thrown about and sometimes people catch the meaning and some don't.  When slaves were happy with the Master, they had been in training with, much of what is in D/s now days; it got to that time and place where trust was absolute, the submission was absolute; those individuals went to the last level, which was Master-slave.  The ceremony was to mark that move from Training and exploring, to which either could have left and or parted ways but, got to the point where they were bonded.  So, by submitting once to the Master, to which is very familiar with the slave by now; further negotiations are no longer needed.  The training was over--now the slave was finished. 
 
M/s, D/s relationships are no less committed to each other.  It was in my early memory that D/s served as a level to which individuals did not want to go into the M/s level.  Referencing to my time in the scene, with location and such, having their own 'flavor' on titles and labels; D/s was more democratic then the M/s relationship.  There was more say in what took place by the one who submitted--thus submitting many times was recognized.  That is when the two dynamics no less committed had something to make a separation by.
And that was the on going input by submissives, to which happens with slaves but, transmitted in a more 'knowing' manner or the art of silient communications.  These distinctions are now blurred as time passed to the present.  What really mattered then as they do now--
is doing what is best for YOU!  What really matters then as they do now, is doing what is best for YOUR personal relationship with your partner.  What really mattered then as it does today--Find your happiness in each other, not through others or attempt to copy another's relationship.  Live for your sake--not to keep up with the Jones.
 
Respectfully submitted for consideration,
Lady Hugs
 




twicehappy -> RE: BDSM Definitions? (10/1/2006 7:34:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: adaddysgirl


 


But this is why i was saying that the slave submitting once is a crock because i realize there are a multitude of things that can change in any relationship, making it impossible for one of the partners to stay.  

Perhaps we can quantify that statement so it makes more sense;
 
"a slave submits once for the duration of the relationship"
 
Even that statement is not exactly right, but that is what this thread is for, to come up with general definitions for our most commonly used terms, leaving the fleshing out of these terms to the individuals but having a term to use as a starting point or a way to express ourselves to those unfamiliar with our roles in WIITWD. 




LadyHugs -> RE: BDSM Definitions? (10/1/2006 8:04:39 AM)

Dear twicehappy, Ladies and Gentlemen;
 
Relationships are only as good as the individuals in them.  It takes everybody to invest in them.
 
But, it also needs to be mentioned that not all relationships are designed to last as, some relationships are created by the circumstances/situation at the moment.
 
Some dominants out and about, are more Guardian Masters, or those who are Healing Masters and or Training Masters.  Masters can serve a purpose for that camera shot in a slave's life.  When the time is right, it is time to move on.  The hope is in my mind's eye, is for the right reasons.  Masters do have their ceilings.  Some slaves hit a Master's ceiling but, they still need to grow themselves, beyond that ceiling.  If a Master sees this, it should be considered it ripe to part ways as to allow the slave to reach their glass ceiling.
 
It is in my mind's eye, that parting ways is final and no return.  I have welcomed many a slave back after release, as they found their own glass ceiling and are content now.  They don't need to search anymore.  When they 'know' then commitment can be made, having exhausted every possible chance to grow and mature.  Even then relationships are forever fluid.
 
In another posting, I noticed that one had committed to a relationship until that Master had become a drunk.  When drugs and alcohol become a person's master, then you've lost the person and drugs and alcohol and or any other addiction, e.g. sex, gambling, etc.  are The Master now.  That is not what the slave committed to.  The time is ripe to leave.  The same can be said, about slaves.  If slaves become enslaved to addiction to drugs, alcohol, sex and such; they are no longer serving their Master but, serving the addiction.  It would make every bit of sense to me, as a Master to release the individual after exhausting treatment remedies.
 
Respectfully submitted for consideration,
Lady Hugs




teamnoir -> RE: BDSM Definitions? (10/1/2006 8:38:33 AM)

I taught a class on this at the Citadel, (San Francisco), last month. Here's the summary of what I taught.

Top and bottom refer to the roles in an SM interaction. An SM interaction is defined as being an interaction who's primary focus is sensation. It could be sensation which is produced by psycho-emotional means, but it's focus is on sensation.

Dominant and submissive refer to the roles in a d/s interaction. A d/s interation is defined as being an interation who's primary focus is on power or control. It might be a power exchange, or it may simply be a naturally occurring power differential.

Master and slave refer to the roles in an m/s interaction. And M/s interaction is defined as being an interaction who's primary focus is on ownership of a person. Many people consider M/s to be a subset of d/s, some consider it to be a completely separate thing.

These terms are not mutually exclusive and often overlap. There's nothing to prevent one participant from seeing the interaction as SM while the other sees it as d/s. So long as the behaviors involved are consensual, the interaction can be just fine.

I use the word "interaction" here because all three can happen on either a scene-by-scene basis or on a relationship-by-relationship basis.




twicehappy -> RE: BDSM Definitions? (10/1/2006 8:48:26 AM)

I like yours as well teamnoir, especially the comments on the way some of the roles overlap, thank you for your contribution.




kyraofMists -> RE: BDSM Definitions? (10/1/2006 9:12:07 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHugs

But, it also needs to be mentioned that not all relationships are designed to last as, some relationships are created by the circumstances/situation at the moment.


I think this is a very important point.  Many times, I see people define success or failure of a relationship as to how long they last and not by any other measure.  I believe though that there are people who come into our lives and they are there to teach us something that we need to learn in that moment.  They are not there to walk with us throughout the rest of our life but to help us grow in that moment.  I could look back on some of my relationships and see them as such failures because they are over and didn't last decades or I can choose to look back on them as successes because they helped me grow and taught me valuable lessons; lessons and growth that have made my current relationship so very happy and strong.

Knight's kyra




KatyLied -> RE: BDSM Definitions? (10/1/2006 9:22:52 AM)

quote:

Many times, I see people define success or failure of a relationship as to how long they last and not by any other measure.


I have learned to let go of this determination.  It wasn't easy. 

People do enter into relationships that they understand will not last forever.  This does not and should not lessen the people or their relationship.  Just because something is different from the norm, that does not make it less worthy.  Just because something does not last forever, that doesn't mean it wasn't a worthwhile experience.

Thank you for your thoughts.




Sinergy -> RE: BDSM Definitions? (10/1/2006 9:40:08 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ScooterTrash

FINE
This is the word women use to end an argument when they are right and you need to shut up.

GO AHEAD
This is a dare, not permission. Don't do it.

LOUD SIGH
This is not actually a word, but is a non-verbal statement often misunderstood by men. A "Loud Sigh" means she thinks you are an idiot and wonders why she is wasting her time standing here and arguing with you
over "Nothing"
 
THAT'S OKAY
This is one of the most dangerous statements that a woman can make to a man. "That's Okay" means that she wants to think long and hard before deciding how and when you will pay for your mistake.



Hello A/all,

I remember that one precept that states a man will never win an argument with a woman or have the last word.  Any response a man gives a woman is simply the start of a new thing to argue about.

Sinergy




juliaoceania -> RE: BDSM Definitions? (10/1/2006 9:44:54 AM)

quote:

Hello A/all,

I remember that one precept that states a man will never win an argument with a woman or have the last word.  Any response a man gives a woman is simply the start of a new thing to argue about.

Sinergy


Except a certain man when he says hey hey hey

But that is just how it works for this submissive...smiles




BOUNTYHUNTER -> RE: BDSM Definitions? (10/1/2006 9:53:12 AM)

TO theses I would like to add"WHAT EVERRRRR"  its a word I hate and DIANE  knows it well,so she will flip her hair as she walks away and over her shoulder I hear ..what everrrrrr.it that southern draw of hers..BH




Amaros -> RE: BDSM Definitions? (10/1/2006 9:56:08 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: teamnoir

I taught a class on this at the Citadel, (San Francisco), last month. Here's the summary of what I taught.

Top and bottom refer to the roles in an SM interaction. An SM interaction is defined as being an interaction who's primary focus is sensation. It could be sensation which is produced by psycho-emotional means, but it's focus is on sensation.

Dominant and submissive refer to the roles in a d/s interaction. A d/s interation is defined as being an interation who's primary focus is on power or control. It might be a power exchange, or it may simply be a naturally occurring power differential.

Master and slave refer to the roles in an m/s interaction. And M/s interaction is defined as being an interaction who's primary focus is on ownership of a person. Many people consider M/s to be a subset of d/s, some consider it to be a completely separate thing.

These terms are not mutually exclusive and often overlap. There's nothing to prevent one participant from seeing the interaction as SM while the other sees it as d/s. So long as the behaviors involved are consensual, the interaction can be just fine.

I use the word "interaction" here because all three can happen on either a scene-by-scene basis or on a relationship-by-relationship basis.


Pretty much my take roughly speaking.

Here's a recap of the OP, and I think quite a bit of the problem, other than my use of words like "roleplay", that are connotative of playacting, seem to revolve around the notion that these definitions, or any definition, is a cage, written in stone, etc., when in fact any relationship is what it is, regardless of external definition, and secondly, the fact that on person can be any of these things, or none of them at a given time, isn't being tacitly assumed: i.e., the overlap, and the fact that these are essentially roles, which can be, theoretically at least, assumed or shed as necessary.

The definitions below, from the OP, are more finely grained than the general definitions posted above, and refer more to expectations of how a person so designated is expected to behave, in a general sort of way.

The ambiguous phrase here is "expected to", because this can mean either 'predicted to', or 'required to' - or face being called a 'fake', etc., and the ambiguity here, I think, reveals the underlying dichotomy between those who think of this as something they do, and those who think of it as something they are.

I wouldn't quibble with either, but when defining something for mass consumption, one is generally obligated to defer to the greatest common denominator.

This is not intended to denigrate those whose identities are more fully immersed in wiiwd, but rather to avoid the mistake of making these definitions exclusionary to the point that the community becomes static because a given acolyte cannot meet these expectations from a cold start, and instead of having fun, learning and growing, is stuck trying to meet perhaps improbable or impossible (at whatever stage they may be) expectations, like hamster on a wheel.

We all have to start somewhere, and grow into into what we eventually become.

quote:

Here are my definitions of these words.
 
Top; one who controls the scene for play only.
 
Bottom; one who submits during the scene only
 
Sadist; one who enjoys inflicting pain
 
Masochist; one who enjoys receiving pain
 
Dom/Domme; the one who dominates, the one who is in control of, is responsible for, gives orders and direction to the sub/slave. This is something they are, a personality type, not just something they do only in the bedroom. A Dom/Domme is what they are whether or not they currently own a sub or slave.
 
Master/Mistress, is one who is dom/domme and currently owns a submissive or a slave. It is a title bestowed on them by virtue of such ownership. It also goes much deeper than the Dom/Domme relationship on the spiritual, emotional and physical levels in regards to the depths of the power exchange and the responsibilities involved.
 
Switch; one who can either top or bottom during play or a scene.
 
Submissive; one who yields power or control to the dominant on a limited basis both during day to day life and during scening or playing. Or one whose nature is submissive, one may be a submissive whether or not they currently are submitting to a dominant, it is what they naturally are.
 
Slave; one who yields control of all aspects of their existence to the dominant within the limits agreed upon prior to being collared (these are generally agreed upon moral limits, not to be confused with" I get it my way or I leave or Sam type behaviors). One who is considered to be owned by another as their sole property. One whose submission to their owner/s is total, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week in and out of any scenes or play..


I think this outlines a reasonable contiuum, The above definitions of 'Top' and 'Bottom', I think were found objectionable because they seem to imply a lack of seriousness (i.e., scene only) - an interpretation that ignores the possiblity or probability that a top might also be a Dom, Master, Mistress, etc., that it doesn't mean they stop being dominant or submissive once the scene is over.

In other words, that the terms 'Top' and 'Bottom' are not 'titles' per se,  like Master or Mistress, but scene specific designations or descriptions for the actors in a given scene.

Also, I would be hesitant to interpret continuum as meaning that it's hierarchial, i.e., you start as a top or a bottom and progress to Master or Slave, but rather each would seem to be a self sufficient level unto itself, though of course one does tend to make the assumption that these titles are generally assumed or granted due to greater levels of experience, and/or commitment.

Master and Slave, as defined above would seem to be somewhat overdefined, describing more accurately how this particular slave defines her role rather than a looser, a narrative, rather than a more general description of what sort of behavior might be expected from one designating themselves as a slave.






Sinergy -> RE: BDSM Definitions? (10/1/2006 10:03:59 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

This seems a bit melodramatic to me. Really....Kangaroo court?...Abu Graibh?....Gitmo....High Crimes? I wasn't aware that having an opinion could qualify for such. Here all along I was thinking this was just a message board where everyone is entitled to an opinion.



Hello A/all,

The melodrama was intentional.  I feel similarly about message boards as you do; to whit, they are places everybody is entitled to express their opinion in an environment where their opinion is valued, respected, and/or disagreed with courteously.  Simply making a negative statement about how anybody acts, and then refusing to provide any evidence to prove their actions, strikes me as a form of bullying.

So yes, I agree, I feel everybody is entitled to an opinion.  As far as I am concerned, I find those opinions I dont agree with as valuable as the ones I do agree with.

But that is just me and I could be wrong.

Sinergy




thisishis -> RE: BDSM Definitions? (10/1/2006 11:25:16 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: adaddysgirl
And while i'm at it, i should say that whoever coined that phrase that a slave submits once and a sub daily (or whatever the heck it is) must have had rocks in his/her head.  That is ridiculous.
Why do you hold the opinion that a slave submits once and a submissive daily is ridiculous, adaddysgirl? If not for those differences, in which way(s) do you see a slave and a sub being different from each other?

For the record: i'm asking for the sake of understanding how others arrive at a different opinion, not out any desire to change your's or anyone else's opinion.

quote:

ORIGINAL: adaddysgirl
If that were the case, every single slave who has ever agreed to submitting to a Master should be with that Master for the rest of her life (since she only submits once)....and we all know that doesn't happen very often, now does it?
 
Daddysgirl
 
 
When that is the case, it should be, in my opinion. While i believe that it should be, i also understand that 'shit happens' in life that is sometimes beyond a person's control.
It may be true to say that slave being with the master for the rest of it's life may not happen often, and unless every slave 'out there' can be accounted for in that respect, no one can say for certain how many slaves remain committed for life and how many do not.

While i believe that it should be, i also understand that 'shit happens' in life and in relationships that is sometimes beyond anyone's control.
If the master should happen to die before the slave, has the slave failed to remain committed simply for having outlived their master?

*edited ... misworded, then edited again, because the wording was right the first time. 




Sinergy -> RE: BDSM Definitions? (10/1/2006 12:18:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

Hello A/all,

I remember that one precept that states a man will never win an argument with a woman or have the last word.  Any response a man gives a woman is simply the start of a new thing to argue about.

Sinergy


Except a certain man when he says hey hey hey

But that is just how it works for this submissive...smiles


Actually, this is not entirely correct.

What will happen is that juliaoceania will start a sentence about some mundane happenstance like "What would you like...(probably going to end it with 'me to cook for dinner tonight' or some similar nonsense)..."

I will raise my voice and go

"Hey Hey Hey!"
 
She will get all submissive and puddly and cow-eyed and stuff, and I will politely ask her to finish her thought.

I have never seen Interruptophilia as a kink.  Perhaps we need another BDSM Definition?

Seems to work for both of us.

Sinergy




KnightofMists -> RE: BDSM Definitions? (10/1/2006 12:25:50 PM)

quote:


Why do you hold the opinion that a slave submits once and a submissive daily is ridiculous, adaddysgirl? If not for those differences, in which way(s) do you see a slave and a sub being different from each other?

For the record: i'm asking for the sake of understanding how others arrive at a different opinion, not out any desire to change your's or anyone else's opinion


Here is how I arrive at my opinion

The foundation of my opinion is found by understanding what my personal moral principles and values with regards to a person.  It is my belief that a person is entitled to have an opportunity to have their basic needs meet that will foster a healthy well-being.  It is my belief that we have a joint responsibility to do what we are able to in foster the fulfillment of these basic needs for ones well-being.

The next step is to understand what are a person’s basic physiological and psychological needs that contribute to a person’s well-being.   The physiological needs of a person are generally simple understood as food, clothing and shelter that will maintain a person’s physical health.  The physiological needs of a person is one that is open to debate.  I personally support the arguments of Dr. Deci and Dr Ryan in which they identity three basic phychological needs; Competence, Relatedness and Autonomy.

The following is a quote from there article “Self-Determination Theory and the Facilitation of Intrinsic Motivation, Social Development, and Well-Being.
“Inductively, using the empirical process,we have identified three such needs--the needs for competence (Harter, 1978; White, 1963), relatedness (Baumeister & Leary, 1995; Reis, 1994), and autonomy (deCharms, 1968; Deci, 1975)--that appear to be essential for facilitating optimal functioning of the natural propensities for growth and integration, as well as for constructive social development and personal well-being.”

The particular need that I refer to in order to answer your question is “Autonomy”.

What is Autonomy?  There is many specific definitions of autonomy but it is my understanding that autonomy that we are talking about is the personal freedom and moral independence of the person.  For many, autonomy would be contrary to their idea of Lifestyle slavery.  However, for me autonomy is not opposed to lifestyle slavery and I would say it is even a necessary requirement to protect against the dangers of Co-dependency.

Lifestyle Slavery is a consensual arrangement and therefore one exercises their personal freedom to enter into consensual slavery.  However, for the basic psychological needs to be met, a person need for autonomy must be continuously be met as well.  In other words, the person must exercise their personal freedom to decide continuously that consensual slavery is their relationship choice.

Be a person Master, Dominant, sub or slave, it is necessary that we have the personal freedom to continually make choices to live the way we desire to.  To consider that one makes this choice only once would in my opinion disregard the basic psychological need of autonomy that is necessary for a healthy well-being.




Sinergy -> RE: BDSM Definitions? (10/1/2006 12:40:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

quote:


Why do you hold the opinion that a slave submits once and a submissive daily is ridiculous, adaddysgirl? If not for those differences, in which way(s) do you see a slave and a sub being different from each other?

For the record: i'm asking for the sake of understanding how others arrive at a different opinion, not out any desire to change your's or anyone else's opinion


Here is how I arrive at my opinion

The foundation of my opinion is found by understanding what my personal moral principles and values with regards to a person.  It is my belief that a person is entitled to have an opportunity to have their basic needs meet that will foster a healthy well-being.  It is my belief that we have a joint responsibility to do what we are able to in foster the fulfillment of these basic needs for ones well-being.

The next step is to understand what are a person’s basic physiological and psychological needs that contribute to a person’s well-being.   The physiological needs of a person are generally simple understood as food, clothing and shelter that will maintain a person’s physical health.  The physiological needs of a person is one that is open to debate.  I personally support the arguments of Dr. Deci and Dr Ryan in which they identity three basic phychological needs; Competence, Relatedness and Autonomy.

The following is a quote from there article “Self-Determination Theory and the Facilitation of Intrinsic Motivation, Social Development, and Well-Being.
“Inductively, using the empirical process,we have identified three such needs--the needs for competence (Harter, 1978; White, 1963), relatedness (Baumeister & Leary, 1995; Reis, 1994), and autonomy (deCharms, 1968; Deci, 1975)--that appear to be essential for facilitating optimal functioning of the natural propensities for growth and integration, as well as for constructive social development and personal well-being.”

The particular need that I refer to in order to answer your question is “Autonomy”.

What is Autonomy?  There is many specific definitions of autonomy but it is my understanding that autonomy that we are talking about is the personal freedom and moral independence of the person.  For many, autonomy would be contrary to their idea of Lifestyle slavery.  However, for me autonomy is not opposed to lifestyle slavery and I would say it is even a necessary requirement to protect against the dangers of Co-dependency.

Lifestyle Slavery is a consensual arrangement and therefore one exercises their personal freedom to enter into consensual slavery.  However, for the basic psychological needs to be met, a person need for autonomy must be continuously be met as well.  In other words, the person must exercise their personal freedom to decide continuously that consensual slavery is their relationship choice.

Be a person Master, Dominant, sub or slave, it is necessary that we have the personal freedom to continually make choices to live the way we desire to.  To consider that one makes this choice only once would in my opinion disregard the basic psychological need of autonomy that is necessary for a healthy well-being.


Hello A/all,

Excellent post, KnightofMists.

While I would imagine there is a headspace associated with slavery and submission where the person reaches a point in their consciousness that they cannot conceive of being autonomous, I tend to think there is still a low level of cognition which continues to make a choice on a moment by moment basis.

People make choices all the time.  These might be mundane matters like what to eat, where to sleep, whether to call their mother, whatever.  But there are also conscious or subconscious choices which include things like to die, to leave, to destroy the relationship by acting out, to drive the other person away, or whatever.  Whether the person is aware of the choice is another issue.

Just me, could be wrong, but there you go.

Sinergy




bignipples2share -> RE: BDSM Definitions? (10/2/2006 12:47:40 AM)

I love KnightofMists definition of Tops and Bottoms.

~Big




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