RE: BDSM Definitions? (Full Version)

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BrutalAntipathy -> RE: BDSM Definitions? (9/27/2006 6:29:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: BrutalAntipathy
We are looking at the whole elephant, and giving descriptions of the individual parts.


I disagree.  We are a group where many of us honestly believe we are looking at the whole elephant and demanding we find a word that defines the elephant completely.

I was reading an article today which was talking about vision.  Apparently, the human eye has both rods (which are useful for seeing in low light conditions) and two types of cones (which allow us to see the color spectrum we perceive) giving us our visual field.

Most other animals, like dogs and cats and birds and many insects have a 3rd set of cones.  These cones allow them to perceive things in the ultraviolet spectrum.  Humans lost this 3rd set of cones  thousands and thousands of years ago.  It is theorized these were lost because early on in our time we spent our time not going out at night, and furtively hiding from animals trying to eat us.

So if you and a bird look at an elephant, you might believe deep in your heart that you are looking at the whole elephant, but you are not seeing nearly as much of that elephant as a bird sees.  Does this mean you are wrong?  No.  It simply means that what you perceive has limitations and aspects which enhance your perception that are not shared by others.

We are an individual group, as well as an individual subgroup. We are humans, and BDSM'ers, not birds. Therefore, we share common perceptions.

I have talked to over a thousand women in great detail about their experience as a woman.  It is my job.  Do I think I understand what being a woman is all about?  No.  I dont think I could possibly understand what being a woman is all about.  Do I want to sit a bunch of women down and hammer out a definition of what being a woman is all about?  Not really.  I personally think the word "woman" is too confining a term because it lumps the Secretary of State of the United States with a Burkha clad woman in Iran, as well as a abalone diver in Japan, etc.  Does calling all three of them by one name give any of us some sort of intrinsic understanding of who or what they are?  Not really.  Looked at one way it could be said to be dismissive of each of them to try to label them all on such a surface level.  A woman can share her story and their life with me, and if something they say doesnt make any sense I will ask for clarification.

But we are not talking about life experiences, but simply what constitutes a definition. Two vehicles may have had completely seperate uses, but both are still vehicles despite the uses they were employed for. All of us would look at a flogger hanging on a strangers wall and assume, possibly incorrectly, that the person engaged in BDSM, but none of us would look at the soccer trophy on the mantle and make the same assumption. This is about the sum of the whole of BDSM, not the sum of the whole of every individual, bird, elephant, and insect that has lived, lives now, or may live sometime in the future. Are we talking the nature of BDSM, or the nature of the encompassed universe here?
I do wish you success in your attempts to nail down an all-inclusive definition of a diverse population of humans, although it reminds me of the myth of Sisyphus.

I see more similarity to Cassandra than to Sisyphus, though both are cursed with futility.

Just me, could be wrong, but there you go.

Sinergy





Amaros -> RE: BDSM Definitions? (9/27/2006 6:40:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: twicehappy
Lol, thank you for noticing. I took the liberty of highlighting a few statements i found to be of direct interest to this thread, thank you again.


I've been unable to sit for more than a minute or two for a few days due to a pinched sciatic nerve from some aggressive mountain biking, so I missed the progression while trying to score some painkillers and muscle relaxants - great minds think alike!



Sinergy -> RE: BDSM Definitions? (9/27/2006 6:45:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ScooterTrash
OK..I admit, I got to within the last two pages of this thread and simply gave up. There appears to be 2 sides to this. There’s those who either agree or can intelligently offer alternative definitions/labels, and those who are scared to death of definitions &/or labels.

 
I dont recall being scared or angry by anything I have read on this thread.  Have you ever heard of the psychological term "Projection?"
 
quote:
Well I hate to break it to you folks, the undecided and I won't do it group, but if you don’t pick something that categorizes your relationship, don’t be all pissed off when someone labels your ass with something you don’t like. 


*jumps up and down screaming*

I asked you all not to call me Shirley or Late For Dinner.  I wont even go in to the nicknames I have been given working down on the docks.

A person cannot make another person "feel" anything, except for pain.  I would have to agree to allow that other person's actions to alter my emotional state in order to be pissed off or scared.

You do not need to worry.  The last time I was emotionally involved in what somebody else called me or what I was doing was when I was in high school.

quote:

 

We either get it together or we are doomed to fail. From what I have seen, and to count at this point, we have a decent chance at this point for survival.



This seems a bit over dramatic for me.  I imagine there will be people practicing WIITWD for as long as there are people to practice it, whether or not the people who post on these boards agree on a definition for the "slave."

I recall this same logic (we all need to get together and do what I think we should do or else) being used by Monkeyboy to try to convince the rest of the world that Iraq needed to be invaded.  Nothing I have read about that fiasco indicates it to be going as well as he hoped it would.

Just me, could be wrong, but there you go.

Sinergy



Sinergy -> RE: BDSM Definitions? (9/27/2006 6:50:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BrutalAntipathy

All of us would look at a flogger hanging on a strangers wall and assume, possibly incorrectly, that the person engaged in BDSM



Hello A/all,

I would ask that you refrain from lumping me into an infinitive like "all of us."  I suspect you lack the prescience to know what I personally would do in a situation.  Additionally, I read a long time ago about what happens when one assumes something about somebody else.

They make an ASS out of U or ME.

I would see a flogger hanging on somebody's wall and ask them about that lovely flogger they have hanging.  I might even talk about the ones I see lots of people who go to the Renaissance Faire wear as part of their costumes.

The conversation would then devolve into my working there and the den of sexual and BDSM iniquity which prevailed after hours.

But that is just me, and I could be wrong.

Sinergy



Amaros -> RE: BDSM Definitions? (9/27/2006 7:15:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

I recall this same logic (we all need to get together and do what I think we should do or else) being used by Monkeyboy to try to convince the rest of the world that Iraq needed to be invaded.  Nothing I have read about that fiasco indicates it to be going as well as he hoped it would.

Sinergy


Six years ago would you have guessed that this same hand puppet would be trying to pick a fight with half the planet, and have us closer to the brink of "nucular" war than we were in 1962? Or managed to violate both domestic and international law with impunity to torture and assassinate - well, nobody is really sure who - or co-opt the Federal judiciary, or effectively suspend the bill of rights?

He did this mainly by scaring good Christian people with dehumanized images of "other" people who whatever else they may be, aren't "good" Christians, if you recall.

Just me, could be wrong, but there you go.



OhReallyNow -> RE: BDSM Definitions? (9/27/2006 7:27:27 PM)

quote:

So you are so high and mighty you don't have to accept anyone's definition of anything huh

no, this slave does not because she knows how to read herself, and can interpert the words effectively to reflect her own views.
quote:

   For the established, if they don’t know what they are at this point, I’ve lost have patience for them as well


and who are the established? This SLAVE knows exactly who and what she is. It may not conform to what you believe she is, by your definitons, but it does not change the fact that this SLAVE knows exactly who and what she is. She has known it since she was 18 years old, and in the years since then, her idea, and perception of herself has remained steadfast.
quote:

  For the newbies..I only hope I can protect them.


ahhh, now this slave understands. You have appointed yourself the undeclared savior for all newbies? Interesting. Please tell this slave when all these newcomers asked for your 'saving' grace?
quote:

  There’s those who either agree or can intelligently offer alternative definitions/labels, and those who are scared to death of definitions &/or labels

this slave fears nothing except Master's disappointment in her. Labels and definitions have their place; but it is not this slaves PLACE to decide who should be labeled as what.
quote:

  but if you don’t pick something that categorizes your relationship,

this slave has picked something that categorizes her relationship. You are the one who seems to have a hard time understanding and accepting that.
quote:

  I am in a BDSM relationship and I give a damned how other people, nilla or otherwise view it.

this slave finds it very interesting that one who claims to have such control over his own life would care what others thought of it.
/shrug
each to their own though
quote:

  We either get it together or we are doomed to fail. From what I have seen, and to count at this point, we have a decent chance at this point for survival.


this slave has thrived in this lifestyle, as a SLAVE,  for 20 years. She did it without YOUR input or insistance on conformity. She will continue to do so until they place her in the ground.



Amaros -> RE: BDSM Definitions? (9/27/2006 7:39:38 PM)

        this slave finds it very interesting that one who claims to have such control over his own life         would care what others thought of it.
        /shrug
        each to their own though
quote:

 We either get it together or we are doomed to fail. From what I have seen, and to count at this point, we have a decent chance at this point for survival.

this slave has thrived in this lifestyle, as a SLAVE,  for 20 years. She did it without YOUR input or insistance on conformity. She will continue to do so until they place her in the ground.


Your independence is admirable - in light of the larger picture however, you don't mind if the rest of us get our story straight do you?



OhReallyNow -> RE: BDSM Definitions? (9/27/2006 7:43:17 PM)

quote:

Your independence is admirable - in light of the larger picture however, you don't mind if the rest of us get our story straight do you?

take as long as you like [8D]



Amaros -> RE: BDSM Definitions? (9/27/2006 7:47:17 PM)

You're too kind.



juliaoceania -> RE: BDSM Definitions? (9/27/2006 7:59:42 PM)

quote:

this slave fears nothing except Master's disappointment in her. Labels and definitions have their place; but it is not this slaves PLACE to decide who should be labeled as what.

 
Ditto about what you fear!

I was saying to my Daddy last night "Someone's right to define and control this lifestyle ends at my Daddy's front door". I do not care how others define me really, because his definitions are all that matter to me in the final analysis

quote:

this slave has picked something that categorizes her relationship. You are the one who seems to have a hard time understanding and accepting that.


 
I have picked my category of where I would like our relationship to go too. I want to be his 24-7 365 collared submissive one day once we are sure we are completely right for each other and at that point I doubt I will have many limits seeing I have less by the day. I will be completely his once the collar goes around my neck, and I wish to be able to defer to him in all things.  This is a lifetime commitment in our eyes... It sounds suspiciously like another label floating out there to describe a different dynamic... but oh well, I am what I am... my Daddy defines our dynamic.. no one else...

I really appreciate your spunk on this thread... you definitely have shown that slave does not mean doormat ohreallynow! I just wanted you to know I think you have comported yourself in a polite and reasonable manner and I admire that.



happypervert -> RE: BDSM Definitions? (9/27/2006 8:02:07 PM)

quote:

There appears to be 2 sides to this. There’s those who either agree or can intelligently offer alternative definitions/labels, and those who are scared to death of definitions &/or labels.

In other words, there is the side that flatters themselves by thinking that their argument is the only intelligent one and resorts to name calling when they can't persuade the other side to see it their way. When such manipulative tactics are tossed into a discussion I see it as an admission that you have run out of well thought out arguments and/or you are just overmatched in the debate and should concede.



Amaros -> RE: BDSM Definitions? (9/27/2006 8:33:57 PM)

So anyways, if I were to be the one to define "slave" in terms of the BDSM community it would go something like this:

An advanced form of roleplaying in which a submissive gives tacit, rather than explicit consent to his/her role in interactive scenarios over an indeterminate time frame.

Feedback? Most consent in this hyar does tend to be tacit, at least within the confines of an established dyad, but the term "slave" is explicitly defined, historically at least, as  non-consensual - the word has no place in a consensual dynamic if it isn't expressly and unambiguously defined as a form of roleplay - whatever subjective, personal associations you might have for this particular designation.

i.e., otherwise, where is the difference between the lovely ladies in here who have proudly refined their submission to an art form and some 14 year old Somolian girl raped repeatedly at gunpoint?

Plan B might be to blame it on the Goreans.[:-]

Is that a guy picking his nose or flipping the bird?



Sinergy -> RE: BDSM Definitions? (9/27/2006 9:20:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BrutalAntipathy

We are an individual group, as well as an individual subgroup. We are humans, and BDSM'ers, not birds. Therefore, we share common perceptions.



Do you have any idea how many individual groups or subgroups who identified as whatever have been torn apart by the internecine conflict about how to define whatever there have been in the history of people?

I disagree with your second statement as well.  I dont think we share common perceptions.  There is a concept found in psychology known as "confirmation bias."  Confirmation bias is the tendency of an individual to take in all information at their disposal, and then discount information which does not agree with their conclusion, and give added weight to information which does agree with their conclusion.  Taking this into consideration, I dont think any of us "share" a perception, because everybody has their own greater or lesser amount of confirmation bias in favor of what they themself think which adds or subtracts from objective reality.

5 blind men, each insisting that what they themselves allow themselves (consciously or unconsciously) to fully perceive is
reality.  They all think they can perceive the whole elephant, but do any of them really?

But that could just be my own confirmation bias in play.  I tend to be extremely dubious of anybody who has strong opinions about anything.  This includes my own opinion.  I learned this in debate class where the professor spent an entire semester forcing us to actively debate principles we did not agree with, and graded us on how effectively we proved the assigned principle.  So now I spend my entire life considering the whole idea of "what is the complementary principle to this" about anything I believe.

Just me, could be wrong, but there you go.

Sinergy



BitaTruble -> RE: BDSM Definitions? (9/27/2006 10:30:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

Interesting thread. I'd suggest to the thread dwellers to go read Ayn Rand's "The Fountainhead" and then come back here and post again.

tic & [;)]

Celeste


Hello A/all,

I am not really into self-abuse and torture.

I slogged my way through that book several times already in this life, and I am not overly interested in doing it again.

Just me, etc.

Sinergy


If I had to pick one regular poster who I thought had already read this book, it would have been a coin flip between you and LA.

Ok, personally, I do believe it's one of the most important novels of the 20th Century and should be mandatory reading to be allowed to graduate from high school, but the last 5 minutes of the Breakfast Club is probably just as good and much easier to swallow on the whole. ::chuckles::

Celeste



BrutalAntipathy -> RE: BDSM Definitions? (9/27/2006 10:43:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

Interesting thread. I'd suggest to the thread dwellers to go read Ayn Rand's "The Fountainhead" and then come back here and post again.

tic & [;)]

Celeste


Hello A/all,

I am not really into self-abuse and torture.

I slogged my way through that book several times already in this life, and I am not overly interested in doing it again.

Just me, etc.

Sinergy


If I had to pick one regular poster who I thought had already read this book, it would have been a coin flip between you and LA.

Ok, personally, I do believe it's one of the most important novels of the 20th Century and should be mandatory reading to be allowed to graduate from high school, but the last 5 minutes of the Breakfast Club is probably just as good and much easier to swallow on the whole. ::chuckles::

Celeste


Rand is preachy, wordy, and....well....Randish. I could barely slug through Atlas Shrugged,and it is pretty much required reading for we Libertarians.  



ownedgirlie -> RE: BDSM Definitions? (9/27/2006 10:49:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

...but the last 5 minutes of the Breakfast Club is probably just as good and much easier to swallow on the whole. ::chuckles::

Celeste


Too funny [:D]



joyinslavery -> RE: BDSM Definitions? (9/27/2006 10:56:39 PM)

These 'definition' posts are so much fun!! 



juliaoceania -> RE: BDSM Definitions? (9/27/2006 11:04:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: joyinslavery

These 'definition' posts are so much fun!! 



Lets do it again! NOT.. hee he



BitaTruble -> RE: BDSM Definitions? (9/28/2006 1:13:35 AM)

quote:



Rand is preachy, wordy, and....well....Randish. I could barely slug through Atlas Shrugged,and it is pretty much required reading for we Libertarians.  


I agree it can be tough to get the message, but the message is so valuable that it's a worthwhile effort. You know, The Fountainhead was made into a movie as well.. Gregory Peck (not his best performance, but if you can discard that, the message is there as well). Masters looking for a role model could do a lot worse than Mr. Roark.. (if you can set aside the one, tiny, little explosion thingy. Hey, but no one is perfect, right?)[8D]

Celeste



KatyLied -> RE: BDSM Definitions? (9/28/2006 3:16:15 AM)

quote:

"The Fountainhead"


Oh, yes, mandatory reading for all architectural students.  Does it actually provide any other useful purpose?  I can see how subs might find the character of Dominique interesting.  I'm waiting for Noah to weigh in on this.



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