RE: Dawkins on "God" and the Flying Spagetti Monster

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RE: Dawkins on "God" and the Flying Spagetti ... - 1/5/2007 12:13:05 AM

Zensee

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tikkiee
Hmm does a degree in molecular biophysics count?

Nice bit of sheepskin. That's good enough for me if it's good enough for you.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tikkiee

No, it is not believed that the moon is made of cheese. It was thought that the moon was made of cheese. It was a theory. Theories, when applied to science, are nothing more than a possiblity; one that can be either tested and proven; or proven as false.

To have a belief or to believe in something simpy means that a person is convinced of the truth in regards to a statement or allegation. Beliefs are also subjective ; they are not universal.

Wherever did you get that hair splitter? It's devilishly sharp. Who'd have believed... I mean, who’d have thought there was such a world of difference between those two words? Can you believe that my thesaurus included the word think under the heading, believe, and vice versa. Don’t worry, I threw it out.

Isn’t that the wonderful thing about belief though? It feels just like thought, when you are in the middle of it. We are so hungry for meaning that our minds can balance entire empires on a single dried twig of superstition – and feel perfectly grounded. Now that is power.

Then those soulless scientists came along and spoiled everything...

Er... Sorry if I sort of wandered off there. I find sticking hairs back together is distracting.

Z.

< Message edited by Zensee -- 1/5/2007 12:14:25 AM >

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Post #: 221

RE: Dawkins on "God" and the Flying Spagetti ... - 1/5/2007 12:20:43 AM

Chaingang

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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1
Why are we arguing Locke,ect...

My larger point was that the U.S. is a secular nation, and you would seem to have none of the background to understand that statement.

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1
You positied the code of Hammurabi as proof it did not...

It was just an aside, and I stick by the statement that it was mainly a secular work.

BTW, the founding fathers were not yet "agnostics" because the term "agnostic" didn't really exist until circa 1869...so deism was the closest one could get to the idea that god was essentially irrelevant to political life.

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Post #: 222

RE: Dawkins on "God" and the Flying Spagetti ... - 1/5/2007 12:21:56 AM

luckydog1

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Not true. If you are talking about the Nazis, their belief was a quasi-religious belief in the German nation. They tried to justify their beliefs with quack science but they were not the first and probably not the last religious sect/cult to do that. What was quasi religous about it, that it was an orginization? All orginizatons share some common charactaristics. They were not orginized around a belief in some sort of God Force. They were extreme nationalists. They did not use Quack science, they were extremly advanced. It's what happens when you seperate science from religion(which is the point behind the story of Babel). They took the modern Philosopher Nietzche(very anti God) litterally. They took the concept of Darwinism to its logical conclusion. That's science not a quasi religion. So does it work out that any Athiest who does bad things isn't really an Athiest, but is a closet religious person. This gets wierder and wierder. So I assume the Soviets and Maoists were not "real" athiests either, much like Commie apologists say they were not "real" communists. So athiests get judged by thier pure theoretical ideals(where is the creed of science?), and any that doesn't fit is beacause they are not "real" but "quasi religous". Yet religous people are not judged by their ideals but by their actuall behavior. ? Pure hypocrisy isn't it? a straight up double standard.

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Post #: 223

RE: Dawkins on "God" and the Flying Spagetti ... - 1/5/2007 12:24:53 AM

luckydog1

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Societies exist without religion. Name one.

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Post #: 224

RE: Dawkins on "God" and the Flying Spagetti ... - 1/5/2007 12:32:35 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

They took the modern Philosopher Nietzche(very anti God) litterally. They took the concept of Darwinism to its logical conclusion. That's science not a quasi religion. So does it work out that any Athiest who does bad things isn't really an Athiest, but is a closet religious person. This gets wierder and wierder. So I assume the Soviets and Maoists were not "real" athiests either, much like Commie apologists say they were not "real" communists. So athiests get judged by thier pure theoretical ideals(where is the creed of science?), and any that doesn't fit is beacause they are not "real" but "quasi religous". Yet religous people are not judged by their ideals but by their actuall behavior. ? Pure hypocrisy isn't it? a straight up double standard.

No they didn't take Darwinism to its logical conclusion. They either never understood Darwinism or they corrupted it for their own ends. Nietzche was anti-religious but what has that got to do with the price of onions? He has also been called anti-semetic but again this is not true but a corruption.

I would place Russian and Chinese communism in the same category as German fascism as a quasi-religious belief, they all had the trappings of religion and none of the rational of people who reached the conclusion there isn't a god through reason. Their beliefs are as irrational as any religious belief.

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Post #: 225

RE: Dawkins on "God" and the Flying Spagetti ... - 1/5/2007 12:36:45 AM

luckydog1

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Chain, Yes we are a secular nation, composed of mostly religous people. Our constituion takes that into account and garuntees us freedom of worship. I am well aware of that. But what does it have to do with the price of tea in China.

I stated that society and Law grew out of religion. That the first laws were commanded and justified by the gods seems to make my point. If you read the laws the Gods are mentioned dozens of times. Being anti religous does not mean being anti God. You have to look at the history of how the Church behaved in Colonial America to understand that. But they were emphatic that all people be allowed to worship freely, thats not anti god, its pro God. It is anti oppressive state based religion, and a very good thing in my view. Isn't the Declaration of Independance one of those "most precious liberty documents" Why does it say that our inalienable rights are endowed on us by our creator? You calling Jefferson a liar?

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Post #: 226

RE: Dawkins on "God" and the Flying Spagetti ... - 1/5/2007 12:42:39 AM

luckydog1

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Darwinism teaches that things are improved by the strong destroying the weak. Survival of the fittest. That by killing off the weak, society( or an pool of orginisms) evolves. Which is the basis for eugenics. A science they loved. Nietzche taught people to shed thier morals, and do whatever they could get away with. that there is no GOD, and that morals are for the weak and stupid. You combine darwinism with a lack of morals, and you get something like the nazis.

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Post #: 227

RE: Dawkins on "God" and the Flying Spagetti ... - 1/5/2007 12:45:50 AM

luckydog1

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So your personal opinion based on rhetorical argumment(because Science has not disproved the existance of God)s is "reason" but those who disagree are delusional? Shakes my head in disgust

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Post #: 228

RE: Dawkins on "God" and the Flying Spagetti ... - 1/5/2007 12:48:46 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

Societies exist without religion. Name one.

Budhism is a philosophy and not a religion in many people's eyes. Confucianism the same so that takes in just about all of China and large parts of south east asia. But the Amazon was full of tribes that didn't have what we would recognise as religion.

The human brain is set up to be dualist for many practical reasons so people do experience a separation of mind and body but perception doesn't a reality make and its not proof of god. Biologists quite understand how this works and why, there are very good survival reasons for it.

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Post #: 229

RE: Dawkins on "God" and the Flying Spagetti ... - 1/5/2007 12:58:53 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

Darwinism teaches that things are improved by the strong destroying the weak. Survival of the fittest. That by killing off the weak, society( or an pool of orginisms) evolves. Which is the basis for eugenics. A science they loved. Nietzche taught people to shed thier morals, and do whatever they could get away with. that there is no GOD, and that morals are for the weak and stupid. You combine darwinism with a lack of morals, and you get something like the nazis.

Absolutely not. THIS IS A GROSS DISTORTION OF NATURAL SELECTION.

This is a gross over simplification but a gene fills in gaps and is replicated because it is a good replicator not necessarily because an organism might need it. However, these organism might well be cooperative with other organisms, they might well be social and in these social animal's genes will be replicating, sort of blind choices or genes filling gaps. The organisms themselves aren't striving for the survival of the fittest nor are their genes, its a sort of blind design.

Survival of the fittest is at best a shorthand at worst a gross corruption used to justify eugenics. It

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Post #: 230

RE: Dawkins on "God" and the Flying Spagetti ... - 1/5/2007 1:02:56 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

So your personal opinion based on rhetorical argumment(because Science has not disproved the existance of God)s is "reason" but those who disagree are delusional? Shakes my head in disgust

As has been said countless times, no one can prove whether god exists or not but one gets to a point where reason statrs to ask, well, where is this god, there is no sign of him, there is no reason for a gods's existence.

Well what made the universe you may ask and I will ask, who made god? If god came out of nothing then I don't see why the universe shouldn't have come out of nothing. No one is ever going to find out so god is irrelevent.

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Post #: 231

RE: Dawkins on "God" and the Flying Spagetti ... - 1/5/2007 1:10:55 AM

luckydog1

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But in societies with Bhuddism or confuciuosim they also have other relgions they use in conjunction. Like in Japan (Shinto). Under confucian(Chinese) teachings the emperor was a god. Along with a host of other Gods, and a firm belief in ancestor worship and an afterlife. To say they were non religous is nonsense. Other forms of bhudism( like tibetian) is certianly a full blown religion. Its not a question of type of religion (Amazon), or are the un named tribes rationalists? Every single one of those tribes has a shaman and set of Religous beliefs. So you can't name as single society with out a religion. As I suspected, I had thought perhaps you might perhaps surprise me and actually find one. I never heard of one. Are you just anti Christian?

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Post #: 232

RE: Dawkins on "God" and the Flying Spagetti ... - 1/5/2007 1:12:38 AM

luckydog1

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Well what made the universe you may ask and I will ask, who made god? If god came out of nothing then I don't see why the universe shouldn't have come out of nothing. No one is ever going to find out so god is irrelevent.
If thats your faith you are welcome to it, but it ain't backed up by science.

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Post #: 233

RE: Dawkins on "God" and the Flying Spagetti ... - 1/5/2007 1:23:54 AM

luckydog1

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This is a gross over simplification but a gene fills in gaps(gaps in what) and is replicated because it is a good replicator(no if your genes quit replicating you will quickly die) not necessarily because an organism might need it. However, these organism might well be cooperative with other organisms, they might well be social and in these social animal's genes will be replicating, sort of blind choices or genes filling gaps( no traits that increase survival and successfull breeding get passed on and increase in a society). The organisms themselves aren't striving for the survival of the fittest nor are their genes, its a sort of blind design. Right the organisms are struggling for survival and to pass on thier genes. Traits that help them do that get passed on. Traits that harm their chances of survival or reproducing get eliminated. Traits like being weak or Jewish/Gypsy/Gay, to the nazis. The nazis used the principles of Darwinism along with the ethics of Nietchze.
Now you apply that to human society, if you want a race of German Uber Mench, how do you get it? Through Science of course.

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Post #: 234

RE: Dawkins on "God" and the Flying Spagetti ... - 1/5/2007 1:25:17 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

Well what made the universe you may ask and I will ask, who made god? If god came out of nothing then I don't see why the universe shouldn't have come out of nothing. No one is ever going to find out so god is irrelevent.
If thats your faith you are welcome to it, but it ain't backed up by science.

In the risk of repeating myself, no one can answer the ultimate question. Religion is just an irrational answer to it. I prefer no answer to an irrational answer. In that respect, god is irrelevent.

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Post #: 235

RE: Dawkins on "God" and the Flying Spagetti ... - 1/5/2007 1:27:25 AM

luckydog1

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And eugenics is a science it requires no justification, just a desire to implement it. Are we all ready for round 2 of Scientific Eugenics, now we can just scew directly with the genes. I can't wait to see what nightmares ethicless science will be bringing us next, along with a few cures.

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Post #: 236

RE: Dawkins on "God" and the Flying Spagetti ... - 1/5/2007 1:29:12 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

Now you apply that to human society, if you want a race of German Uber Mench, how do you get it? Through Science of course.

Since there is only one human race, the idea of a German or even Jewish race is irrational. But since we use race as a shorthand, if the German's wanted a super race, their best bet might have been to happily co-exist and interbreed with the Jewish people in their midst. Who knows the answer? That is why their science wasn't science but an irrational belief.

I doubt your family is murdering each other, or at least I hope not. But as your family happily extends, replicators are being replicated and selections are being made. Survival of the fittest?

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Post #: 237

RE: Dawkins on "God" and the Flying Spagetti ... - 1/5/2007 1:30:34 AM

luckydog1

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In the risk of repeating myself, no one can answer the ultimate question. Religion is just an irrational answer to it. I prefer no answer to an irrational answer. In that respect, god is irrelevent.
Allright I finally got you to admit it is simply your preference. And your preferences are rational, and others are delusional. I fear to my core if your ilk ever gets power.

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Post #: 238

RE: Dawkins on "God" and the Flying Spagetti ... - 1/5/2007 1:33:11 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

In the risk of repeating myself, no one can answer the ultimate question. Religion is just an irrational answer to it. I prefer no answer to an irrational answer. In that respect, god is irrelevent.
Allright I finally got you to admit it is simply your preference. And your preferences are rational, and others are delusional. I fear to my core if your ilk ever gets power.

No. Its what leads you to that decision. You either take the route of reason which pushes god further and further out of the equation until that final leap is not that great or you take the irrational route of religion and take a absolutely huge leap of faith.

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Post #: 239

RE: Dawkins on "God" and the Flying Spagetti ... - 1/5/2007 1:38:10 AM

luckydog1

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yes over time the most succesfull (fittest) groups will grow the most. And that is how it works in peace/easy times. But there is a whole other side to Darwinism. Organisms and societies face serious challenges at times. Then the survival of the fittest kicks in. Challenges can include war and territory being taken away. Then the stronger(not neccesarrily physical strengh) group/individuals survive and the weaker doesn't. Apes, wolves, and men fight over territory. It is this part of darwinism that I refer to in my Nazi example. You can't pick and choose the parts of science you like and ignore the rest. Unless it is just a faith

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