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RE: M/s vs. D/s - 9/28/2006 1:40:32 AM

BitaTruble

Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I think what I have noted from watching people here that call themselves slaves is that it goes beyond a submissive mindset.

It's just different. Not beyond .. any more than an apple is beyond an orange. For me, there's no choice in this and by association, I believe there is a choice for a submissive bottom etc. I believe a submissive bottom consents to give their authority to another and a slave has the authority and power taken from them. (Also, that it's a process and a long one at that!) I'm perfectly aware that I have yet to meet anyone who agrees with me on that issue (with the most notable exception of Himself of course!) but that's OK. I didn't use to think this way either until it actually dawned on me that it 'is' this way.. for us. Himself saw it long before I did.

quote:

I have read things like they have no will to leave their master no matter what, they have no desire to assert themselves to be independent from their master's will.

For me, pretty close but have to take exception to the 'no matter what' part. It is what it is in this moment. But, the future is mutable and I don't know how the next moment will unfold. Perhaps the power will be returned to me either because he no longer has the ability to control it or because he no longer wants to or maybe he'll just get tired of the whole thing .. so, forever is the goal, but right now is what I've got. ;)

quote:

They have the slave mindset. It is a different animal than trying to define a set of actions. Two people can be engaged in the same actions within dynamics but have completely different motivations....

quote:

Does that make sense to some slaves and submissives out there? I am trying to quantify what I have read... and I maybe totally off base.

Not to shabby there, Julia.

Celeste

edited to fix quoting

< Message edited by BitaTruble -- 9/28/2006 1:41:00 AM >

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 21

RE: M/s vs. D/s - 9/28/2006 3:27:47 AM

KatyLied

Posts: 13029
Joined: 2/24/2005
From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline

quote:

Where I find it to be problematic is that there is really no graduated steps from submissive to slave,

Yep, and another problem, for me anyway, is how some people holding the power in a relationship define themselves. I've known Doms who are truly tops (not that there is anything wrong with being a top), who define themselves as Dom or Master. They don't understand a power exchange, but they do understand how to top. There is some misrepresentation going on. I don't know if they really think they are a Dom or Master or if they just like the way the label feels on them.

_____________________________

“If you want to live a happy life, tie it to a goal, not to people or things.”
- Albert Einstein

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 22

RE: M/s vs. D/s - 9/28/2006 3:56:58 AM

twicehappy

Posts: 2706
Joined: 2/5/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

For me, there's no choice in this and by association, I believe there is a choice for a submissive bottom etc. I believe a submissive bottom consents to give their authority to another and a slave has the authority and power taken from them. (Also, that it's a process and a long one at that!) I'm perfectly aware that I have yet to meet anyone who agrees with me on that issue

Celeste, Surprise, i know exactly what you mean, having experienced this phenomena twice.

You enter into the typical D/s or M/s collaring arrangement agreeing to submit yourself totally to your owner or Dom. Then suddenly somewhere along the way (for whatever reason) you discover this unimaginable "thing" has occurred. You ARE his slave; you could no more say no or walk away than a duck could fly to the moon.

It is something they do to you inside, with their being the person they are, in is done in such a way you often do not realize it until too late.

Damn trying to explain this in words is like trying to pull hen's teeth.

When i saw Scooter at the airport i knew he was right, i just knew. I'd only felt that way once before and i spent 2/3rds of my life with that man. I accepted his and Jewel's collar as soon as it was offered, i would have accepted it when i walked off the plane.

Yet in the beginning of course there were adjustments, there were disagreements, there were times things were said that i would walk off thinking" keep pushing, i can walk away". Then one day i really pissed Scooter off, he said something to me that should have sent me furiously packing, i found myself starting to think "uh huh you think you can get away with that Mr. Man" when i realized, Yes he could. He could do anything, say anything, demand anything and i would crumple at his feet.

I started out handing over the power while inside i retained a great deal of it; i ended up having it taken from me. This is how i KNOW my initial feelings were correct, i was not looking for a body to swing a flogger, i was not looking for someone who would take the control i offered. I was looking for what i had found once before, the one who could take it from me.

Maybe it is because i am so strong willed normally, i really don't know why this is the only thing that would have satisfied me. What i do know is that what you say is true, even if putting into words is damn near impossible.

_____________________________

Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations.

The human heart is not a finite container but an ever expanding universe with all the stars contained there in.

(in reply to BitaTruble)

Post #: 23

RE: M/s vs. D/s - 9/28/2006 4:01:16 AM

bandit25

Posts: 3029
Joined: 6/18/2005
Status: offline

I'm with Zumala on this one. I'm not judging anyone's choices or lifestyle but I agree that everyone has a choice and if you have a choice, then you can't be owned in the sense where you can be sold and you have no choice but to serve. I guess I think of a slave as someone with no choices...no negotiated choices...NO choices...NO limits and it's hard for me to believe that anyone truly lives that way.
That's not to say that some don't, just that I don't "get" it.

I think of slaves in the South. They and their children were raped, sold, even killed at their Masters' whim. There weren't any negotiations.

I guess BrutalAntipathy summed it up best for me...consensual non-consent.

(in reply to zumala)

Post #: 24

RE: M/s vs. D/s - 9/28/2006 7:46:11 AM

agirl

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Joined: 6/14/2004
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Yes, I have noted and read the same too and seen it called their *slave heart*...Some people identify as a *slave* regardless of whether they have an owner or not, that it's their *mindset* etc.

I don't have a *slave mindset* and without my Master I'm just a person, call me vanilla, call me anything........but I certainly wouldn't be a slave or a submissive.

agirl

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 25

RE: M/s vs. D/s - 9/28/2006 8:05:43 AM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied

quote:

Where I find it to be problematic is that there is really no graduated steps from submissive to slave,

Yep, and another problem, for me anyway, is how some people holding the power in a relationship define themselves. I've known Doms who are truly tops (not that there is anything wrong with being a top), who define themselves as Dom or Master. They don't understand a power exchange, but they do understand how to top. There is some misrepresentation going on. I don't know if they really think they are a Dom or Master or if they just like the way the label feels on them.

That's why I always talked to them a good long time to see if we sought the same things in a power exchange. I can also see how tops can become doiminants and dominants masters... as one submits and the gives their dominant a little more power on a day to day basis it becomes easier and easier to cede more and more. I can see this in my own interactions....

I do not know if I could ever get the slave mindset, and without it I would not call myself one. I do know that I have little trouble with feeling the desire to give more and more.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to KatyLied)

Post #: 26

RE: M/s vs. D/s - 9/28/2006 8:07:17 AM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

ORIGINAL: agirl

Yes, I have noted and read the same too and seen it called their *slave heart*...Some people identify as a *slave* regardless of whether they have an owner or not, that it's their *mindset* etc.

I don't have a *slave mindset* and without my Master I'm just a person, call me vanilla, call me anything........but I certainly wouldn't be a slave or a submissive.

agirl

It sounds like perhaps the way it works for you is that it is the man that brings out the "s" in you?

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to agirl)

Post #: 27

RE: M/s vs. D/s - 9/28/2006 8:09:07 AM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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Celeste,

both you and ownedgirlie opened my eyes about this and helped me understand a little more than I would have. I am so glad both of you contribute to this board!

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to BitaTruble)

Post #: 28

RE: M/s vs. D/s - 9/28/2006 8:58:45 AM

agirl

Posts: 4530
Joined: 6/14/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

ORIGINAL: agirl

Yes, I have noted and read the same too and seen it called their *slave heart*...Some people identify as a *slave* regardless of whether they have an owner or not, that it's their *mindset* etc.

I don't have a *slave mindset* and without my Master I'm just a person, call me vanilla, call me anything........but I certainly wouldn't be a slave or a submissive.

agirl

It sounds like perhaps the way it works for you is that it is the man that brings out the "s" in you?

Hullo Juliaoceana,

In a way, yes.

I think part of it is that I rarely do things *by halves*. If I'm owned, then I'm wholly owned....which means accepting the many challenges that it entails.....(basically, submitting to someone elses will).

It's not that he *brings out the submissive* in me .......but more that I know it's the better route for me to submit. It's certainly bloody painful if I don't. Much time has proved him to make better decisions than I do about my life. He really DOES know better and it's rare for me to actually disagree with any of his decisions. I just dont like doing as I'm told and don't, always.

I submit because I chose to be a slave.......that doesn't mean that I like it all of the time and I'd be a fat liar if I said I did. I prefer the way my life runs because of it, I don't always like the methods but I *chose* this and I can't have it all ways.

Sometimes I can liken it to *putting myself in BootCamp*.....I know it's doing me good but I hate IT and him sometimes.

I don't wake each day wondering how to serve him but rather hoping that I can do what he's asked and that it coincides with what I want too. If it doesn't, then it's me that's in for the tough time because it doesn't bother him one way or the other. He doesn't do things by *halves* either.

Regards, agirl

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 29

RE: M/s vs. D/s - 9/28/2006 9:33:13 AM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble
It's just different. Not beyond .. any more than an apple is beyond an orange. For me, there's no choice in this and by association, I believe there is a choice for a submissive bottom etc. I believe a submissive bottom consents to give their authority to another and a slave has the authority and power taken from them. (Also, that it's a process and a long one at that!) I'm perfectly aware that I have yet to meet anyone who agrees with me on that issue (with the most notable exception of Himself of course!) but that's OK. I didn't use to think this way either until it actually dawned on me that it 'is' this way.. for us. Himself saw it long before I did.

Well I agree that sometimes in relationships, the authority really is simply taken and that's that. It's not really a "choice" as we would define it.

I simply disagree that it is unique to slaves and part of the inherent definition of being a slave.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to BitaTruble)

Post #: 30

RE: M/s vs. D/s - 9/28/2006 10:37:38 AM

thetammyjo

Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BD123

On several recent postings in the forms, the terms M/s and D/s where use. Is there a distinct difference between Master/slave and Dominate/slave? Or are they the same?

I personally see a big difference but not along the lines of control or limits as others might see them.

I see the matter as one of motivation, personality, and time.

Being a submissive is not just a role but a personality trait, I've never met someone who was submissive 100% of the time even to one person. Perhaps they hide at home so I never meet them. Therefore I believe that being someone's submissive refers to the time when one is 100% submissive to that's person's will and that is a time-limited thing.

However, someone who is a slave is focused on serving another person 100% of the time in whatever why he/she may do so. That might include being sexually aggressive, or taking on a top role in SM, or having a paying job, or raising kids, or making decisions for the master when the master isn't around or does not wish to be bothered with certain matters. In other words, in my opinion, a slave would have a great deal of difficulty being submissive all of the time because he must be making decisions and be self-motived to serve to the best and fullest of his capacity. It involves times of submission too, probably a nice break from the work of a slave.

Just how I use the terms and I never use them interchangeably unless it is a question of general orientation where you might see sub/slave/bottom/masochist on one side and dom/master/top/sadist on the other.

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

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(in reply to BD123)

Post #: 31

RE: M/s vs. D/s - 9/28/2006 1:45:51 PM

Archer

Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline

A thought that ay help some figure out how they want to view D/s M/s
"All roses are flowers not all flowers are roses"
As flowers though all roses have petals, pollen, pestals and stennum (sp), and all the things that define a flower. They also within that catagory have certain definative things shape of petals, numbers of petals,... that make them specificly roses.

Now as to the definatives of slavery vs submission
I would contend that a viewpoint of Ownership being central to the relationship is definative
I would contend that service to the Owner is definative
I would contend that a commitment to adjusting the slave's will to the Owner's will is definative.

Beyond that I'm not sure that anything definative can be found.

(in reply to thetammyjo)

Post #: 32

RE: M/s vs. D/s - 9/28/2006 1:56:22 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

quote:

However, someone who is a slave is focused on serving another person 100% of the time in whatever why he/she may do so. That might include being sexually aggressive, or taking on a top role in SM, or having a paying job, or raising kids, or making decisions for the master when the master isn't around or does not wish to be bothered with certain matters. In other words, in my opinion, a slave would have a great deal of difficulty being submissive all of the time because he must be making decisions and be self-motived to serve to the best and fullest of his capacity. It involves times of submission too, probably a nice break from the work of a slave.

That sounds like my first marrriage...smiles. (and I am only half way joking...lol)

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to thetammyjo)

Post #: 33

RE: M/s vs. D/s - 9/28/2006 2:26:24 PM

agirl

Posts: 4530
Joined: 6/14/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

However, someone who is a slave is focused on serving another person 100% of the time in whatever why he/she may do so. That might include being sexually aggressive, or taking on a top role in SM, or having a paying job, or raising kids, or making decisions for the master when the master isn't around or does not wish to be bothered with certain matters. In other words, in my opinion, a slave would have a great deal of difficulty being submissive all of the time because he must be making decisions and be self-motived to serve to the best and fullest of his capacity. It involves times of submission too, probably a nice break from the work of a slave.

That sounds like my first marrriage...smiles. (and I am only half way joking...lol)

LOL......that made me smile.

I've never been more *sorted*, in a perverse, twisted kind of way...... (maybe *sorted out* would be a better phrase, though...lol)

agirl

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 34

RE: M/s vs. D/s - 9/28/2006 3:04:30 PM

BitaTruble

Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble
It's just different. Not beyond .. any more than an apple is beyond an orange. For me, there's no choice in this and by association, I believe there is a choice for a submissive bottom etc. I believe a submissive bottom consents to give their authority to another and a slave has the authority and power taken from them. (Also, that it's a process and a long one at that!) I'm perfectly aware that I have yet to meet anyone who agrees with me on that issue (with the most notable exception of Himself of course!) but that's OK. I didn't use to think this way either until it actually dawned on me that it 'is' this way.. for us. Himself saw it long before I did.

Well I agree that sometimes in relationships, the authority really is simply taken and that's that. It's not really a "choice" as we would define it.

I simply disagree that it is unique to slaves and part of the inherent definition of being a slave.

Actually, I'm not sure we do disagree on this because I don't believe it's unique to being a slave and it's certainly not inherent in being a slave. It's just what's different about me now as opposed to me before now. It's the only thing that's changed. I used to have the will and choice (if not the desire) to leave and now I don't. How I think, my attitude about service, my actual performance of service, those things I think are necessary in functioning as an adult, these things are all the same. I don't 'do' anything differently, I just recognize that where there were options before, now there are not.

This is how I define things, it's how I view others, it's the one true way for me, not a global view on how things are in the M/s world, just how they are in my narrow little corner of it.. a corner which has exactly two people in it.. Himself and me.

I think it's important to understand about choices and options. I know I've heard a hundred times if I've heard it once, ... you always have the choice to leave.

When I examine that in depth, I find that it's not the choice that's even the issue, it's the consequence of the choice that matters. To leave means I am stripped of my own truth, my core, the essence of who I am. To leave is a lie and a betrayal of trust to my word, my being and my soul. To be other than myself is to wear a mask and fake my life. Depending on your perspective life is either too damn long or too damn short to fake it. Can I physically walk out the door, get in a cab and go somewhere else? No, I cannot. The shell of my body can, certainly, but that shell leaves behind everything that's important, everything that really matters, that does make me unique and the body walking out that door is someone else entirely. It's not me. Not now, not today, not in this moment.

I'll be someone new tomorrow though and tomorrow will bring what it will bring and it could all change in the blink of an eye. Tomorrow I may very well be able to make a choice to leave and have it be 'me' who walks out the door because I am no longer a slave. Growth works in funny ways and I'll accept it no matter what form it may take.

Celeste

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 35

RE: M/s vs. D/s - 9/28/2006 3:30:14 PM

charismagirrl

Posts: 297
Joined: 8/30/2006
Status: offline

i am in a M/s relationship and a couple of the posts made me think back about a week or so ago when i had a deep realization.

my Daddy/Master wasn't here in the house with me but we talk every night no matter what and he "puts me to bed" i have a set bedtime that kind of fluctuates, but i am to be in bed or on my way between 12:15 and 12:30. Anyway, on this night i was feeling bratty cause my feelings had been hurt (i felt) . i thought "When we get off the phone i'm just gonna march back out to the living room and watch t.v. Daddy will never know the difference." i was gonna "show him" and defy him. NOT! lol...even though the thought was there and i wanted to disobey i found it impossible to leave my bed...Physically i was able but mentally and emotionally i couldnt go against him..

That's just one of the many revelations i am having as i realize i can no longer just walk away. This relationship, being Owned, slave, is soooo different from my past D/s relationship.

(in reply to agirl)

Post #: 36

RE: M/s vs. D/s - 9/28/2006 5:53:39 PM

kyraofMists

Posts: 3292
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble
I think it's important to understand about choices and options. I know I've heard a hundred times if I've heard it once, ... you always have the choice to leave.

When I examine that in depth, I find that it's not the choice that's even the issue, it's the consequence of the choice that matters. To leave means I am stripped of my own truth, my core, the essence of who I am. To leave is a lie and a betrayal of trust to my word, my being and my soul. To be other than myself is to wear a mask and fake my life. Depending on your perspective life is either too damn long or too damn short to fake it. Can I physically walk out the door, get in a cab and go somewhere else? No, I cannot. The shell of my body can, certainly, but that shell leaves behind everything that's important, everything that really matters, that does make me unique and the body walking out that door is someone else entirely. It's not me. Not now, not today, not in this moment.

I'll be someone new tomorrow though and tomorrow will bring what it will bring and it could all change in the blink of an eye. Tomorrow I may very well be able to make a choice to leave and have it be 'me' who walks out the door because I am no longer a slave. Growth works in funny ways and I'll accept it no matter what form it may take.

Celeste

This part of your post has helped me make sense of something I have been struggling with for months. I have been having such a hard time wrapping my brain around the idea that he owns me and the choice is no longer mine to leave. He said something to me many months ago and your words have made it all make sense in my brain and I can accept that I don't have a choice to leave if I want to continue being who I am. That a choice between being who you are and destroying who you are is not really a choice at all.

Thank you for sharing.

Kyra

_____________________________

"Passion... it lies in all of us. Sleeping, waiting, and though unbidden, it will stir, open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us, guides us... passion rules us all. And we obey..." ~Angelus

(in reply to BitaTruble)

Post #: 37

RE: M/s vs. D/s - 9/28/2006 6:34:21 PM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists
That a choice between being who you are and destroying who you are is not really a choice at all.

Thank you for sharing.

Kyra

Pretty much, after all why would anyone CHOOSE to be poly otherwise? :)

However, I understand why people are so adamant about it being "a choice" and keeping the "I can choose to leave" thing on the table. As Celeste said, life changes, we change, and it would be wrong of us to stay in dynamics that no longer serve who we are, or are even unhealthy for those involved.

It just so happens that the dynamics DO serve who we are and that there really wasn't a "choice" to get involved in them.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to kyraofMists)

Post #: 38

RE: M/s vs. D/s - 9/28/2006 10:49:50 PM

KnightofMists

Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BD123

On several recent postings in the forms, the terms M/s and D/s where use. Is there a distinct difference between Master/slave and Dominate/slave? Or are they the same?

first.. M/s generally applies to Master/slave and D/s stands from Dominant/submissive.

Second. the only distinction in my opinion is one has total authority transfer and the second has Limited authority transfer.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to BD123)

Post #: 39

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