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Murder? - 9/27/2006 6:02:13 PM

Level

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La. medical group backs accused doctor

By MARY FOSTER, Associated Press Writer 44 minutes ago

A state medical organization on Wednesday came out strongly in support of the Louisiana physician accused of killing four critically ill patients in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060928/ap_on_re_us/katrina_hospital_deaths

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RE: Murder? - 9/27/2006 6:04:21 PM

justheather

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Im an RN working in a critical care unit. The fact that these people even stayed around under those conditions makes them heroes in my book.

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RE: Murder? - 9/27/2006 6:11:47 PM

Dtesmoac

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Seems that there are other people in the world that need prosecuting more than these people.

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RE: Murder? - 9/27/2006 6:14:40 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: justheather

Im an RN working in a critical care unit. The fact that these people even stayed around under those conditions makes them heroes in my book.

The conditions were indeed horrible, heather. And after several days, they were told that no one would be coming for them for quite awhile; I can't imagine what was going through their minds.

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RE: Murder? - 9/27/2006 6:15:00 PM

diamonddreamlove

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Is a mixed bag of answers for that. Is not perhaps right to decide as if one were God for another, however if i had been one of the patients that is what i would have wished for. The many changes would have been tremendous and the Dr. knew how difficult it would be for such critically ill patients to have to be moved and start through the additional grief of loosing everything they had and perhaps their family as well. Dr. also knew that there comes a time to let go and go on with the ones that can be helped.

I took some classes for a program that is on alert for disasters. One of the things they taught was to save the ones you could and the ones seriously hurt were left until the end so that staff could be used to a fuller capacity. Not saying i agree with the thinking especially if i were the one making the decision as to who got the help or not. I am saying it makes sense to me and decisions like this are made every day in one form or another. Look at transplants the sickest may not get the organ because they are not strong enough to make it work and would be a waste of resources to use on the dying.

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RE: Murder? - 9/27/2006 6:16:35 PM

Termyn8or

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I heard about this. Apparently the patients were gasping for breath and with the lack of electricity they were suffering terribly.

The F_ing government has helicopters that can hunt you down like a wild animal, see through the walls of your house to see if you're growing weed, but they can't plant a generator on top of a building ? They can't bring in fuel for the generators that were already there ?

Thank you FEMA.

T

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RE: Murder? - 9/27/2006 6:17:04 PM

Level

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Here's a link to the 60 Minutes story.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/09/21/60minutes/main2030603.shtml

< Message edited by Level -- 9/27/2006 6:18:21 PM >

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Fake the heat and scratch the itch
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RE: Murder? - 9/27/2006 6:30:49 PM

KatyLied

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I don't want to think about the horror and courage it took to stay with and assist those patients. I would not want a loved to suffer a horrible death. I would not want anyone to suffer a horrible death. I think we need to consider, as Level mentioned, the conditions under which this happened. This certainly wasn't a typical situation.

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RE: Murder? - 9/27/2006 9:01:47 PM

toservez

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I am an RN but I do not think you have to be in the medical field to know that these poor people will and have gone thru far worse personal torments in their heads from what they experienced and things that happen then any politically motivated punishment machine can give them. There are so many other things in this world to go after then good caring people having to make a horrific decisions in a hopefully one time thing for them. They have already suffered enough.

Personally for me they should be treated like heros.

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RE: Murder? - 9/28/2006 6:22:55 AM

peterK50

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A District Attorney loves 3 things above all others, His/her face on TV., His/her name in the paper, & convictions, but not necessarily of the guilty.

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RE: Murder? - 9/28/2006 7:02:57 AM

WhipTheHip

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Those responsible for the deaths of the patients should be brought to justice.
But it is my understanding that those really responsible were all politicians.

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RE: Murder? - 9/28/2006 7:54:52 AM

Chaingang

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I agree with WhipTheHip.

Normal rules of ethics simply do not apply to those circumstances; they esp. do not apply when the government totally drops the ball in handling the emergency as occurred with Katrina. Some kind of necessity defense needs to be considered. Mercy is not murder, whatever the technical legal standards.

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RE: Murder? - 9/28/2006 8:49:04 AM

philosophy

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..i don't believe the doctors in this case are heroes, i think of them as victims. Stuck between a rock and a hard place they made a decision based on the situation they were in. Those who left them to have to make such a decision are utterly culpable. Who was it who cut the budget to repair the levies again?

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RE: Murder? - 9/28/2006 2:06:15 PM

maybemaybenot

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I personally am opposed to euthanasia. As a nurse and as a daughter, I would be forever grateful to these women for saving my parent or loved one from a horrible death or indetermined suffering. I would sleep better knowing they just went to sleep and drifted out of their bodies.
I do not think this falls into the category of euthanasia, murder, homicide or any other such thing. Given the description in the article and knowing about the inhuman conditions following Katrina, I can say with a fair amount of certainty that I would have done the same thing if I had been told no rescue was coming. And being ethically opposed to euthanasia, I would still sleep well with a clear conscience.
Criminals were let out of jail to roam the streets during Katrina. Many are still free. It staggers my mind that a City/Judicial system that did that is going to prosecute these women. I just hope the jury has enough humanity in them to see past the action and place more weight on the conditions and circumstances these women were facing.
mbmbn

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RE: Murder? - 9/29/2006 9:08:20 PM

Noah

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

I heard about this. Apparently the patients were gasping for breath and with the lack of electricity they were suffering terribly.

The F_ing government has helicopters that can hunt you down like a wild animal, see through the walls of your house to see if you're growing weed, but they can't plant a generator on top of a building ? They can't bring in fuel for the generators that were already there ?

Thank you FEMA.

T

Yes, and plenty of those helicopters were fueled and ready strapped to the deck of a ship in the Gulf because the adminstration balked at giving the order to send them in, according to a Coast Guardsman with some information from the inside. Those crews couldn't wait to get airborne. That is what they signed up for. But yet they had to wait while people drowned and otherwise died. Because Brownie was doing such a swell job, I guess.

Then after the flights began they were temporarily halted to clear the entire airspace for Bush's flyover. As far as I know, the thirst, starvation, untreated illness and death weren't halted.

So many victims in that whole story.

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RE: Murder? - 9/29/2006 10:51:03 PM

marieToo

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General Reply:

I dont think it ever becomes someone else's decision to decide which 'death' is least painful or more desired for the potential victim.

Sorry, Im in the minority on this one. Im not saying these women didnt do their best to care for these patients. But I dont think it ever became their right/decision or responsibility to ascertain that the possibility of rescue was hopeless. Even if they wanted to save themselves, then try to summon help back to the hospital to recover the others, there would still be hope of saving the lives. You dont take the word of 'rumor' (interesting that no source is ever named in the story) that everyone in that building was going to be left for dead. I think these ladies most likely thought that these patients would suffer horrible deaths and wanted to spare them of that suffering. I think their hearts were in the right place. But I dont think it was their decision to make. If those poor people had suffered slow deaths, their blood would be on the hands of another agency, not on the nurses. Im sorry but you dont get to decide that involuntary euthanasia is the 'better way to go' and you dont get to decide that theres no hope unless the patient is no longer breathing. Clearly they would've lived if they werent injected with lethal doses of drugs that they didnt ask for. In some ways, we can say that a terminal cancer patient should be euthanized because he's only going to suffer and die slowly. But unless he asks for it of sound mind and body, who is to decide for him that he should be killed faster, so he doesnt suffer. Regardlesss of what kind of suffering it is. Whether its starving to death because you cant keep food down, or drowing because you're trapped, its not for someone else to decide for you.

PS: I am a huge believer in euthanasia when the patient is of sound mind and body and makes that decision for themself. Unless they ask for it, or its in a living will to disconnect life support, we dont get to decide for thinking people how, when and where they should die, no matter what tragic position they may be in .

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RE: Murder? - 9/29/2006 11:37:22 PM

Zensee

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How is it "playing god" to spare people in a hopless situation, needless sufering? Sounds like an entirely human dilema to me. God was obviously too busy making huricanes to care about a few old folks or their doctors. And Bush and his crew were too busy playing God to care about them either. 0

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RE: Murder? - 9/30/2006 8:17:15 AM

marieToo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zensee

How is it "playing god" to spare people in a hopless situation, needless sufering? Sounds like an entirely human dilema to me. God was obviously too busy making huricanes to care about a few old folks or their doctors. And Bush and his crew were too busy playing God to care about them either. 0

They didnt spare people, they killed them. Killed them. Killed them, because they decided (ERRONEOUSLY at that) that there was no hope.

We, you, me, nurses doctors, gods masters, lawyers, floor sweepers, do not have the right to decide for other human beings , how when and if they will die and which death is the more palatable. Were these people incoherent?? What about them being ill made them incapable of making their own decision about whether or not to stay and wait for help? People have laid on Mt Everest freezing and starving, waiting for help rather than throw themselves off the edge of the mountain because it would be a less tortorous death. Should another climber come along and decide that it would be better to push them off the cliff because THEY think help will never show up? Did these people even know they were going to be killed, I mean "spared"? Did they ask to be injected with lethal doses of meds? Who were these nurses to decide that there was no hope left and to decide that it was up to them to take another human being;s right to choose, away from them?

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RE: Murder? - 9/30/2006 9:52:52 AM

WhipTheHip

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zensee
How is it "playing god" to spare people in a hopless situation, needless sufering? Sounds like an entirely human dilema to me. God was obviously too busy making huricanes to care about a few old folks or their doctors. And Bush and his crew were too busy playing God to care about them either. 0

Amen!

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RE: Murder? - 9/30/2006 9:55:40 AM

WhipTheHip

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quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo
They didnt spare people, they killed them. Killed them. Killed them, because they decided (ERRONEOUSLY at that) that there was no hope.

They did spare people pain. These patients were as good as dead.
They decided correctly that there was no hope. I have not heard
anyone dispute this but you. Find me one article not written by
some religious nut case that says otherwise.

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